Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Dorothy Mae]

Then why did God have to open her heart to respond? Acts 16:14.

Where does that verse say "God had to" do that? If something says Subject did xyz, that does not mean they had to do so. I don't think there is a single verse in the Bible that say God just had to do something.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Right, it determines if Frank and Martha (cute couple by the way) have the opportunity to receive and believe the testimony of the Holy Spirit. They can't exercise the free will to do that until God gives them the free will to do that.

That is your theology but it is NOT in the Bible nor does it make any sense. No one has free will to make any choice until God gives them free will to make JUST ONE CHOICE. Like I wrote, it is exactly like the Russian election system, "one man, one vote, one candidate...and we are keeping records IF you vote at all."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sought to kill them? No, he did!
"fallen asleep"

This does not make sense. First you wrote "no" then *he did"..which is it?

 

[n2thelight]

A prophet or a prophetess is not one who teaches as an office. They might teach now and again, but that is not their office.

The point was teaching , so are you saying they can teach for a minute but not an hour .

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The point was teaching , so are you saying they can teach for a minute but not an hour .

Pretty funny answer. There are those who have a gift of teaching. They can explain matters that enlighten the hearers. A prophet called by God doesn’t generally have that gifting. If we read the prophetic books, it isn’t like Romans which explains. That’s all I meant.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I'm saying is man can not do anything that God has not first allowed.

There’s no record of man having to ask permission in details (no man asks permission with God actually giving an OK) but if you’re willing to say God allows man to do anything He can, it’s ok.

Nobody in their free will is frustrating the plans of God.

God has few plans compared to what we are free to do, but the major plans cannot be frustrated, true. The question is WHO wants to participate in Gods plans.

Nobody even has any free will in a matter until God allows them to have it.

Untrue. We all have free will.

And we think we're so free.

That’s cause we are.

We're only as free as a rat in a maze that has been carefully laid out and controlled by the free will of the one who made it.

What a horrible view of God and man!!

Our free will operates inside of God's sovereignty.

His sovereign will is that we can make free moral choices to do good or evil. That’s his sovereign will, that we free.

Of course God (and others for that matter) prefer we do moral good. God encourages this and helps us in this direction and man, too, if you think about it, makes laws that “persuade” us to do moral good. (Steal a car and man and God, for example, have tools to persuade you to think better about that act next time.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Meet me in New Delhi at 4:30 local time and we'll discuss it further.

??

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If and when and where God allows it. This is what I'm getting at. Man has free will, but only in the sphere of God's will. It's that seemingly contradictory truth that, both, man and God have free will. Neither Calvinism, nor Freewill doctrines answer this seeming contradiction, because they don't think it can exist. I'm showing you it does!

You’re aren’t showing me it does. You’re trying to show contradictory matters or nonsense. Man has no free willuntil Gods give him “free” will only to say “yes” to the matter. That’s not free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is not a prophet one who teaches ?

Maybe, maybe not.
What is not permitted is a woman being in a position of authority over a man, like a pastor or elder.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

God knows which parts of the maze to open up to a person, and when to do that, and which parts to close off to a person, and when to do that.

Except there is no evidence or scripture that He does this as you state.

I showed it to you!

Acts 16:14
14The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

It was at this place and time in Lydia's life that she was allowed to respond to the gospel message. That part of the maze of life was not opened up to her until then.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have a full on manipulation going on which the outcome in lives is evidence that this fails too often which means it does not happen.

It does happen.

Isaiah 65:1-2
1“I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me;
I was found by those who did not seek Me.
To a nation that did not call My name,
I said, ‘Here I am! Here I am!’
2All day long I have held out My hands
to an obstinate people
who walk in the wrong path,
who follow their own imaginations

It isn't manipulating a predetermined outcome. It's manipulating a desirable outcome like rats can be manipulated, or failed to be manipulated to go in various parts of a maze. Some are going to follow the bait, or avoid adverse conditions in the maze, some aren't. But in God's foreknowledge he already knows the outcome.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

However, there is a moving of circumstances that does take place by His hand in what is more like what happens when a man woes a women. It is gentle and resistible and yet not easily discouraged.

The emboldened part is all I'm saying. And you obviously agree with it. Apparently, you're resisting what I'm saying because you think I'm saying God is manipulating a certain, predetermined outcome for people against their will. No. I said I'm not a reformist. There are those who are going to respond positively to God's message, and there are those who aren't. God sets up the circumstances according to his will for that to happen. For Lydia that meant meeting Paul down by the river and God opening up her heart to respond to Paul's message. Think about all those who were led to similar circumstances and their hearts did NOT respond to Paul's message.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The limits to our freedom are those we know of in the natural world set up since the beginning. (We cannot fly if we jump off a bridge for instance.) He makes available truth and calls us to seek it. If we refuse He calls again later. But as I said, since many fail to come to him, many refuse his calling. Many are called but few become chosen.

WHEN he calls is when you have the free will to decide for or against. We're not as free as we think. Lydia's heart was not opened to respond to the gospel until God opened it. She responded positively. Most respond negatively and reject the calling of God. And eventually, after rejecting it enough times they no longer are offered the freedom to accept the message. God decides when and where we'll exercise our free will in the matter of the gospel.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

WHEN he calls is when you have the free will to decide for or against. We're not as free as we think. Lydia's heart was not opened to respond to the gospel until God opened it. She responded positively. Most respond negatively and reject the calling of God. And eventually, after rejecting it enough times they no longer are offered the freedom to accept the message. God decides when and where we'll exercise our free will in the matter of the gospel.

I think we’re just going around and around. Your theology is your own and not appealing to God or man as truth. Let’s move on..

 

[Tenchi]

www.soteriology101.com

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You’re aren’t showing me it does. You’re trying to show contradictory matters or nonsense. Man has no free willuntil Gods give him “free” will only to say “yes” to the matter. That’s not free.

No. That’s not what I said. Man has no free will until God gives them the free will to either choose or reject the gospel.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This does not make sense. First you wrote "no" then *he did"..which is it?

No, he didn’t just seek to kill them. He did kill them!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. That’s not what I said. Man has no free will until God gives them the free will to either choose or reject the gospel.

So there’s no free will until the precious moment when he can make one choice? The other choices in his life are not free?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No, he didn’t just seek to kill them. He did kill them!

No He didn’t. Do you know the scripture that says the Devil comes to kill?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God decides when and where we'll exercise our free will in the matter of the gospel.

Theres no verse in the whole of the Bible supporting that. That Lydia already believed was HER decision BEFORE she heard the Gospel, before that precious moment, according to you, when God decides you may have free will.

God sovereignly gave man free will to make many decisions and He isn’t manipulating every choice behind the scenes as you believe. It’s pretty obvious if you look at what people decide to do. We are not rats in a maze as you believe