Free Will, Predeterminism and Predestination

[Jethro Bodine]

We aren’t all chosen to be apostles. That applies to them.

So you mean every time we 'chosen' in the Bible it means 12 people only?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Judas was a believer too.

But not a saved 'believer'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

He gave us the reason why some receive mercy. There are no boundaries except our choice to have mercy on others or refuse.

Your free will is limited to within the boundaries of God actually giving it to you. There are people who live all the way to the end of their lives before God extends his grace and mercy to them.

 

[Tenchi]

Molinism derives from the name of the 16th century Spanish Jesuit priest and Roman Catholic theologian Luis de Molina and it was his thesis that God has middle knowledge which is not Biblical as God is infinite in our beginning and ending and gives us a portion of freewill to make conscience choices.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm of the Baptist denomination, so I can assure you I'm no fan of the Jesuits. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. I don't discard an idea simply on the basis of its origin. I would be guilty of the Genetic Fallacy, if I did. So, I don't rule out Molina's ideas just because he was a Jesuit priest.

As for middle knowledge, well, I offered two passages from Scripture (though there are more) that clearly express a counterfactual mode of thinking. I'm not sure, then, how you conclude that middle knowledge is not biblical.

I absolutely agree that God is infinite. Did I write something that suggested He wasn't?

In regards to human free agency, I hold to what is called "soft libertarianism" which corresponds pretty well, I think, to what you wrote about you and I having free will but not in an absolute way.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your free will is limited to within the boundaries of God actually giving it to you.

There is no scripture to support this position,

There are people who live all the way to the end of their lives before God extends his grace and mercy to them.

No, He rains (blessings) on the good and evil. It is cruel to wait until the end of a man’s life. God is not cruel.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But not a saved 'believer'.

He was as saved as all the others. You’ll find NO Biblical support for this position.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually, it's simpler than that.
It's impossible for God to lie. Therefore, his word is as good as a promise.

What you decide his word says is not necessarily what He says it communicates.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So you mean every time we 'chosen' in the Bible it means 12 people only?

Let’s look at the scripture. Where does it mention Jesus referring to his audience as being chosen?

The NT actually tells of Jesus choosing these men, some at least. That’s not a pattern repeated everywhere among all believers in Acts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Depends.
As I've shown, we know that in the case of some Israelites, for example, the answer is, yes, they did lose the capacity to receive.

No, you didn’t demonstrate that. All you demonstrated is that some didn’t receive Him. That wasn’t hard to predict knowing human nature. Israel rejected every prophet sent to them.

You don’t ask HOW people were closed to the gospel but assume it was unjustly done. It wasn’t. They heard and made choices to reject and heard and made choices to reject such that over time the heart was set.

It's clear the parable of the sower makes no attempt to address the issue of freewill, for or against.

Of course it does! The seeds made choice such as preferring the pleasures of this world or refusing persecution. It’s crystal clear those people chose!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You forget that passages where Pharaoh chose to harden his OWN heart.

But not before God hardened it.

Exodus 4:21
But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:13
Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said (see above verse).

Pharaoh doesn't harden his heart until, here, after God's words were fulfilled that God would harden his heart.

Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he (Pharaoh) hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord said.

Always check out what people tell you. I believed what you do about this, too, until I checked it out for myself. Pharaoh did harden his heart, but according to the account, not before God fulfilled his word to Moses and Aaron that He would harden his heart.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But not before God hardened it.

That makes no sense.

Exodus 4:21
But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:13
Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said (see above verse).

Pharaoh doesn't harden his heart until, here, after God's words were fulfilled that He would harden his heart.

Exodus 8"15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord said.

If it says Pharaoh hardened his heart, it means HE did it. Every choice was a NEW situation. A new choice….just like us.

Always check out what people tell you. I believed what you do about this, too, until I checked it out for myself.

You didn’t see that people continue to make choices. New plague, new choice. You’ve fallen into error.

 

[Tenchi]

But not before God hardened it.

Exodus 4:21
But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:13
Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said (see above verse).

Pharaoh doesn't harden his heart until, here, after God's words were fulfilled that God would harden his heart.

Um, can I butt in here a bit? Under what circumstances were the Israelites in Egypt before Moses led them out of it? Were they friends of Pharaoh? Were they happy guests in the realm of an ally? No, they were slaves of Pharaoh. He abused them, burdening them with constant, severe labor, even killing their children when it suited him to do so (remember the birth story of Moses?). Toward God's Chosen People, Pharaoh's heart was very hard, don't you think? And so, when God hardened Pharaoh's heart concerning the release of the Israelites from bondage to him, it was just a further settling of Pharaoh into a condition he had already adopted by his own choosing.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm of the Baptist denomination, so I can assure you I'm no fan of the Jesuits. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. I don't discard an idea simply on the basis of its origin. I would be guilty of the Genetic Fallacy, if I did. So, I don't rule out Molina's ideas just because he was a Jesuit priest.

As for middle knowledge, well, I offered two passages from Scripture (though there are more) that clearly express a counterfactual mode of thinking. I'm not sure, then, how you conclude that middle knowledge is not biblical.

I absolutely agree that God is infinite. Did I write something that suggested He wasn't?

In regards to human free agency, I hold to what is called "soft libertarianism" which corresponds pretty well, I think, to what you wrote about you and I having free will but not in an absolute way.

I agree with your post #14, but was only showing where Molinism originated from. I have done deep studies into the Jesuit Priesthood to know nothing much good comes from it, but that would be another topic.

 

[rstrats]

Maybe this has been answered and I'm just not smart enough to understand, but I wonder if the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?

 

[Tenchi]

Maybe this has been answered and I'm just not smart enough to understand, but I wonder if the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?

Perhaps the best answer to this question, from a philosophical perspective, that I've heard goes something like this: God has, as a consequence of his loving nature, made us to know and love Him. In order for this to be possible, we must be free to choose to do so; love, after all, cannot be compelled. But if we must be free to choose to love God, it is unavoidable that we must also be free not to choose Him. We can't claim we've chosen to love God if there is no other option, right? Anyway, it is evident in the creation of our world that it is not possible to create a world of creatures capable of freely choosing to love God all of whom actually choose to do so. God, being good and omniscient, has brought into being the one world out of all possible worlds in which He knew the maximum number of people possible would freely choose to love Him: Our world. Sadly, those on this world who choose God are not in the majority. But this is not a testament to God's cruelty any more than a knife made by a wood carver to carve wood and create art is a testament to the viciousness of the wood carver when his knife is used to pierce flesh and kill instead.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe this has been answered and I'm just not smart enough to understand, but I wonder if the supreme being has any input into the creation of a person, and if so, does He know before He creates the person that He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire? And if so, why do you suppose He goes ahead an creates the person anyway?

Paul answers that here.

Romans 9:22-23
22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory

 

[jasonc]

God KNOWS you , he knows what choices you will make . He knows every road you will turn down .

I once had a dream , the dream was different and extra real and in fact I told my wife about it but I soon passed it off as just a dream . About six months later through many odd choices I made I was living the dream out in IRL , what a shock it was . I was shown my future but did not understand at the time I had the dream .

Had one of camp blanding in very excellent detail. The odd shaped building we were on ,to the barracks where we had shingles above the entrances and exits and how the guy I talked to stood and what he wore and said .

 

[n2thelight]

If He doesn’t KNOW something, that’s the definition of ignorant. It’s not an insult, it’s a fact. We are all ignorant about many things. No one of us knows everything. That means ignorant.

While , guess I will call Him ignorant ,because if He knew we wouldn't be going through this age right now .
Curiosity question , how long do you think it took for satan to sin, and do you think it was before or after the garden ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let’s look at the scripture. Where does it mention Jesus referring to his audience as being chosen?

The NT actually tells of Jesus choosing these men, some at least. That’s not a pattern repeated everywhere among all believers in Acts.

All saved believers are chosen.

1 Peter 2:9-10
9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.d

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If it says Pharaoh hardened his heart, it means HE did it.

Yes, but you missed the fact that Pharaoh hardening his heart was the fulfillment of God's words to Moses that He would harden his heart. How does your theology explain this?