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FREE WILL

childeye said:
FC, I first and foremost would express to you that for me the issue is of what is true or false. To be precise; If I believe Adam is culpable, as in a malicious intent or perhaps better described as willful and wanton defiance towards God, I would be resentful of Adam and disavow or loathe that he was ever the father of men. If however I believe Adam is culpable because he was naive or too trusting, this brings forth an entirely different spirit pertaining to how I view him. There are two different spirits that are produced by these two differing outlooks. Which one is true? One spirit is of accusation and condemnation and one is of understanding and mercy.

I would beg you and all in this forum for your sincere honesty in this matter in acknowledging the issue and not skirting it, so that I might not be alone in pondering the consequences of our beliefs and all the subsequent actions that will transpire according to what spirits live inside us through what we believe as well as revealing what spirits reside in us according to how we judge.

My point is that anyone who says Adam intentionally sinned says more about them than it does about Adam. Case in point; Note that God said Job was an upright man and Satan said If God took away all he had given him he would curse God. Does this not expose the sentiments of Satan for all to see? Satan said because Job was flesh he would curse God if God would only bring pain upon Job. Does not this show Satan is how he claims Job to be. It is obvious to me Satan has no purity of heart, for he supposes Job doesn't. Darkness does not comprehend Light.

Likewise, the issue of freewill when used to blame or "hold people accountable" so as to condemn, is like Satan being exposed in men. Adam is accountable as are we all but not because we have a freewill to sin or not according to our own discretion. Only the corrupt minds would think sin is even desireable, and desire is the will. It would be like someone saying, "I could rape that little girl over there if I wanted to". What would you think of someone who said that? I would think they are sick or possessed of devils, not that their will was free. So it is I find myself defending Adam's blunder against those who are unwittingly condemning themselves under the guise of acting responsibly.

I hope I've made my point. I have as forthrightly as able tried to. I appreciate your time and attention and your forthright correspondence.
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That was about the most spiritually intelligent and mature post as I've read on these boards.

SOMEone is listening.

enjoy!

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Childeye

I understand your dilemma. But the facts are, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.†(1 Tim 2:14 KJV) Now, the context concerns the submission of women to men, or more aptly, the reason why men are to be in the lead and not women, as far as the local Church is concerned. But that in no way changes what Paul said. Adam was not deceived. Yet, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned†(Rom 5:12 KJV) The sin nature is passed on by the man, not the woman. Jesus gained a human body free from sin because no man was involved. The Catholic idea of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is unnecessary.

Adam was not deceived. Yet he sinned. And though Eve was in the transgression, the effect of Adam’s sin is worse, because Eve’s sin only affected women physically, while Adam’s sin affected the whole race Spiritually. Now, if Adam was not deceived, how did he sin? More to the point, why did he sin? You will note that Satan approached Eve, not Adam, to do his damage. He knew that he couldn’t deceive Adam. He had to get to him some other way, and that was through his wife. “She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.†(Gen 3:6 NIV) Note something here. Adam was with his wife when she was deceived. Yet Paul says that Adam was not deceived. Did Paul make a mistake? If he did, then there is good reason to doubt that this particular letter had its source in God and it shouldn’t be in the Bible. But I don’t believe Paul was mistaken.

Now what is the implication? Adam was with his wife when she was deceived. Adam was not deceived. Ergo Adam ate purposefully. He made a conscience decision to eat even though he knew he was not supposed to. Why? Several ideas have been offered. My own opinion is because he loved his wife and if she was going to die he wanted to die with her. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains that Adam sinned on purpose. He had the free will to choose whether or not to eat, and he chose to eat. If Adam had no free will, then he just ate and the sin couldn’t be attributed to him. The same with Eve. And that would not only mean that God vainly told Adam not to eat, but he unjustly attributed sin to Eve and Adam. And I can’t agree with that and still attribute integrity to the Bible.

Now, one reason for interpretation is to change something we don’t like or can’t deal with. Perhaps you will think differently toward Adam if you realize that God knew what would happen and made a way of escape, for Adam and for us all. Don’t focus on the weakness of Adam. Focus on the grace of God, as does the Bible.

FC
 
Smaller

You deride people who don’t agree with you and you elevate people who do. Seems to me you have a lot more sectarianism in you than you realize.

FC
 
Former Christian said:
Smaller

You deride people who don’t agree with you and you elevate people who do. Seems to me you have a lot more sectarianism in you than you realize.

FC
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I have pointed out repeatedly in this thread that NO SIN can be viewed apart from the working of the tempter within their MINDS and WILL.

The thoughts of temptation and the theft of Word from a persons heart is a SIN of the devil within them all.

I am all for childeye's 'benefit of the doubt' as we all suffer under that working in our wills and 'regardless' of any apparent 'choice' made on the outside of the cup.

As to Adam, you and I have vastly different measures on that entire subject. Why? Because I see the tempter in the middle of the story and will not and can not openly neglect the obvious and just land on Adam and Eve. They were 'both' undoubted pawned by the deceiver IN THEIR MINDS.

That deceiver 'got in there' exactly as Jesus taught us all, to which one will rarely see 'these facts' applied to Adam and Eve in relation to their 'will's.'


Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Any 'believer' or ex in your case who has ZERO factor of Jesus' teachings above and how that might apply to Adam, Eve and their wills or the topic of freewill in general has missed at least 1/2 of the equation if not more, and has more than likely suffered already from the above activity.

In any court of common law, all the perps are in the courtroom. Christianity avoids this particular 'perp' above for themselves and most do not even consider the above as valid teaching in conjunction with understanding the 'will' from a scriptural perspective.

So yeah, childeye had it 'spot on' with his statement here:

"Only the corrupt minds would think sin is even desireable, and desire is the will. It would be like someone saying, "I could rape that little girl over there if I wanted to". What would you think of someone who said that? I would think they are sick or possessed of devils, not that their will was free."

He is thee ONLY poster I have ran across here who has considered the FACTS. Very rare these days.

enjoy!

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childeye said:
What you are calling responsible is for all intensive purposes just blame, condemnation. Caring how your actions affect others is taking true responsiblity and that is the providence of Love. I don't ascribe to Calvinism or Arminianism. Neither factor in the possibility that it's no one's fault. So how is blaming people if they cannot help what they do acting responsibly?
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Accepting responsability for your own sin is key. Blame accomplishes nothing but defering responsability, the calvenist position deferers the responsability for sin on God rather than mankind.
 
warhorse said:
Accepting responsability for your own sin is key. Blame accomplishes nothing but defering responsability, the calvenist position deferers the responsability for sin on God rather than mankind.
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But Jesus forgives saying they know not what they do. How do you reconcile this?
Please answer the question and do not run from it. I don't take credit for my righteousness through which I overcome sin and would be a slave of sin without. Therefore logically I cannot take responsibility for my sin since I did not choose to be flesh born of Adam. Nor do I blame others so as not to be hypocritical. To do otherwise is to be doubletongued. I am not a Calvinist for the second time.
 
Former Christian said:
Why should we ask forgiveness for something we didn't do? It's the devil outside of us and the sin in us that is the cause.

FC
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I didn't say we should not ask for forgivness and I didn't say we didn't do anything. I'm saying if you ask for forgivness and don't know what you did, how can you be truly sorry? Adam and Eve distrusted God and so does everyone that believes Satan's lie that there is an option to God. The only way to willingly disobey God is to not trust Him which is a personal attack. We did not esteem Him as God. We are all guilty of it. I've said it in other posts and I'm saying it now. By the way, has anybody said I'm sorry for this to God. Sorry because we were to take his Holy image and corrupt it by believing He would ever not have our interests in mind and keep us down. But Oh nooo. We are apoligizing for meaning to do it because we have a freewill and we're taking responsibility for our actions. I wonder what God thinks
about these two different apologies? One of them is vanity.
 
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Former Christian said:
Childeye

I understand your dilemma. But the facts are, “Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” (1 Tim 2:14 KJV) Now, the context concerns the submission of women to men, or more aptly, the reason why men are to be in the lead and not women, as far as the local Church is concerned. But that in no way changes what Paul said. Adam was not deceived. Yet, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned” (Rom 5:12 KJV) The sin nature is passed on by the man, not the woman. Jesus gained a human body free from sin because no man was involved. The Catholic idea of the Immaculate Conception of Mary is unnecessary.

Adam was not deceived. Yet he sinned. And though Eve was in the transgression, the effect of Adam’s sin is worse, because Eve’s sin only affected women physically, while Adam’s sin affected the whole race Spiritually. Now, if Adam was not deceived, how did he sin? More to the point, why did he sin? You will note that Satan approached Eve, not Adam, to do his damage. He knew that he couldn’t deceive Adam. He had to get to him some other way, and that was through his wife. “She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” (Gen 3:6 NIV) Note something here. Adam was with his wife when she was deceived. Yet Paul says that Adam was not deceived. Did Paul make a mistake? If he did, then there is good reason to doubt that this particular letter had its source in God and it shouldn’t be in the Bible. But I don’t believe Paul was mistaken.

Now what is the implication? Adam was with his wife when she was deceived. Adam was not deceived. Ergo Adam ate purposefully. He made a conscience decision to eat even though he knew he was not supposed to. Why? Several ideas have been offered. My own opinion is because he loved his wife and if she was going to die he wanted to die with her. Regardless of the reason, the fact remains that Adam sinned on purpose. He had the free will to choose whether or not to eat, and he chose to eat. If Adam had no free will, then he just ate and the sin couldn’t be attributed to him. The same with Eve. And that would not only mean that God vainly told Adam not to eat, but he unjustly attributed sin to Eve and Adam. And I can’t agree with that and still attribute integrity to the Bible.

Now, one reason for interpretation is to change something we don’t like or can’t deal with. Perhaps you will think differently toward Adam if you realize that God knew what would happen and made a way of escape, for Adam and for us all. Don’t focus on the weakness of Adam. Focus on the grace of God, as does the Bible.

FC
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All of this is conjecture based upon scripture taken out of context. Paul saying that Adam was not deceived but the woman was, is pertaining to that the transgression came through the woman and you have applied it to mean the man knew exactly what he was doing and was a collaberater with Satan. The proof of this is that you draw the conclusion that the woman who was deceived is less culpable than the man who was there and not deceived but did it on purpose, yet he should be the leader and she should be the one who submits to Him. So much for your statement that you used to evade the issue, "but the facts are". I don't think you understand my dilemna nor yours since you said nothing about what I had asked you to ponder; The fact that how we judge shows what spirits reside in us. You've evaded the whole issue as if the devil came and stole it before it could sprout. If I may ask you to please go back to the prior post #240 and respond to the points made therein.
 
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Childeye

I believe that everyone from Adam on down is responsible for their own thinking and their own actions. And in order for that to be true, we must have the freedom to choose what to think and do. And to me that’s free will.

Are you telling me that the Bible teaches something other than that?

FC
 
Former Christian said:
Childeye

I believe that everyone from Adam on down is responsible for their own thinking and their own actions. And in order for that to be true, we must have the freedom to choose what to think and do. And to me that’s free will.

Are you telling me that the Bible teaches something other than that?

FC
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Not me!:study Eccl. 3:14 + Rev. 22:18-19's REMOVAL FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE!
 
Eventide said:
..and God condemns all men in Adam because it's not really their fault.. lol..
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As I've told you before, semantics. Words take on different definitions depending on one's perspective. God condemns us even as we condemn others. He forgives us even as we forgive others. We comdemn ourselves therefore according to our own mouths for God will render to each man according to his own measure of judgment. So as we find fault we are at fault. He who grows angry is in danger of hellfire. You are rather Old Testament when there was no intercessor for man in heaven, only Satan accusing the brethren day and night before the Lord. For Jesus is the True Image of God and he interceded on behalf of men and staked his soul on the cross as our justification not our condemnation. There is no condemnation in Christ.

Just visited my Father in law. He is in hospice. He believes they are their to hurry him off to death, so he lies to them and then they do things because of that lie, that make them appear as if they are against him. Self fullfilling prophecy founded upon fear, as what he fears comes true. Semantics, the tool of the devil. May God's mercy and grace be upon my beloved Father in law and also you eventide.
 
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childeye said:
As I've told you before, semantics. Words take on different definitions depending on one's perspective. God condemns us even as we condemn others. He forgives us even as we forgive others. We comdemn ourselves therefore according to our own mouths for God will render to each man according to his own measure of judgment. So as we find fault we are at fault.

Just visited my Father in law. He is in hospice. He thinks they are their to kill him so he lies to them and then they do things because of that lie that make them appear as if they are against him. Self fullfilling prophecy, as what he fears comes true. Semantics, the tool of the devil. May God's mercy and grace be upon my beloved Father in law.
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in other Words:

Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

When any person 'hears' the Words of God in these regards, then more will be given. One will be given much better ways that were 'always' there in the scriptures to understand. This I know as God has been faithful, and when I see another believer who has had those doors of understanding opened to them BY GOD, it is also very very apparent.

The difficulty of belief is twofold. One is to love our neighbors as ourselves. The other is to find proper and sound judgments.

God shows the way in His Words, to those who are so led of Him. His Will does operate 'in such.' And in others it operates to raise a resistor to same.

God is very intricate in how these things work. And it is most interesting.

enjoy!

s
 
childeye said:
As I've told you before, semantics. Words take on different definitions depending on one's perspective. God condemns us even as we condemn others. He forgives us even as we forgive others. We comdemn ourselves therefore according to our own mouths for God will render to each man according to his own measure of judgment. So as we find fault we are at fault.

Just visited my Father in law. He is in hospice. He thinks they are their to kill him so he lies to them and then they do things because of that lie that make them appear as if they are against him. Self fullfilling prophecy, as what he fears comes true. Semantics, the tool of the devil. May God's mercy and grace be upon my beloved Father in law.
Click to expand...

I think that you're missing the point..

Are all men in Adam under condemnation by God, or not ?

All in Adam under the same condemnation according to the flesh and all in Christ justified freely by faith.. right ?
 
Former Christian said:
Childeye

"I wonder what God thinks about these two different apologies? One of them is vanity."

Well, I agree with you there.

FC
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Will you make a definitive judgment about which one is the apology that knows what they did wrong and therefore have learned what to avoid in the future?
 
Eventide said:
I think that you're missing the point..

Are all men in Adam under condemnation by God, or not ?

All in Adam under the same condemnation according to the flesh and all in Christ justified freely by faith.. right ?
Click to expand...
I didn't miss your point, I am avoiding the inherent pitfalls that come with semantics. So I will respond this way. Men are condemned as in a state of corruption so as to gather up all in mercy. It is done this way to filter out the Spirit of Satan in the flesh of man. Pride is to be vanquished. The Christ is the door through which Satan cannot pass for he does not comprehend purity of heart nor holiness. Those who are pure of heart know evil is temporal and so they know all evil is based upon a lie that will not endure. Therefore they know that men who do evil are deceived. Those who see Jesus endure the cross and yet forgive those who crucified him see this purity that is Godly. Belief in Jesus then justifies the believer showing the believer to be pure of heart and unbelievers unaware of what they are doing.
 
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