FREE WILL

[Eventide]

If you want to call any 'mind' or 'will' that is blinded by the 'god of this world,' that would be Satan, as free, you are welcome to do so.

Free to hear and free to believe the gospel.. absolutely.. unless of course you're a Calvinist and are led to believe that God only allows specific people to hear and then believe.

I cannot in 'good faith' see the facts that way because, in short, it is not true to what we are presented in His Words.
If man were 'alone' in mind or will, you'd certainly have a point. But the resistor does resist and block the Word of the Gospel, as Jesus taught us 'all.' The resistor however could care less what God Says. At the point of hearing, there are 'two parties' in play. The mind of the man and the will of the devil who STEALS WORD from people.

And no matter how many times the 'facts' are repeated, 'believers' still can't seem to Hear His Words on this particular subject, which is to me a resounding signal of the Truth of His Words:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Assuredly and resoundingly NO!

ANY believer who reads Jesus' Words above and 'doesn't' get the fact that this happens within 'all' mankind inclusive of themselves, are just not capable of listening or even 'hearing' these teachings. I don't blame them because? There is a cause that is not THEM.

There's no doubt that there is massive deception going on in the world and that we wrestle against the rulers of the darkness of this world.. although none of that teaches me that men cannot hear the gospel and then react to its teaching. Adam COULD hear the voice of God after falling in the garden and he understood that God was calling him.

In the end, it is Gods Choice who hears and who does not hear. No man can hear if and until God Says So.

Yeah, you're a Calvinist lol..

 

[childeye]

Well, what's this verse mean to you..?

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

I think it means exactly what I said about the just being counted with the sinners so all could be gathered in mercy and that only the proud would resist. It certainly doesn't imply a freewill by any means I can discern. What do you think it means?

 

[smaller]

Free to hear and free to believe the gospel.. absolutely.. unless of course you're a Calvinist and are led to believe that God only allows specific people to hear and then believe.

I do NOT hold to 'Calvinism.' They, like every other position have 'some things' correct.

You might consider that God has other things in His Mind when 'HE' allows Satan to steal, blind, deafen people when they hear His Words, and that is to perform His Ultimate Judgment upon SATAN.

So even by not hearing, those blind deaf peoples minds are in fact serving Gods Purposes for the judgment of SATAN. This working is not lost on God nor does it make God cruel whatsoever.

The facts of the workings of Satan have been openly put before you and shown to be within peoples minds, hearts, ears and eyes.

Why is it that YOU cannot see or hear these facts? The answer from one who does is resoundingly clear. I have been given 'no choice' but to see the obvious by my Maker. I can not deny those facts because HE has opened my ears and eyes to those facts.

Needless to say it changed my 'theological' perspectives dramatically when the facts that have always been there in the scriptures FINALLY took hold and showed me. Until that time, I too believed 'for myself' but did not have Gods Vision on this particular subject. It is something I have been taught By The Word and The Spirit from a very long term exposure to same.

I readily admit my continuing partial sight of all of Gods Words AND more importantly I no longer am required to LIE to myself about the source of temptations in MY OWN MIND. They are not 'from ME.' There I make my battles as He Leads.

There's no doubt that there is massive deception going on in the world and that we wrestle against the rulers of the darkness of this world.. although none of that teaches me that men cannot hear the gospel and then react to its teaching.

Were 'men' the only will in play you'd have a point, but that is not the case. And the very powers that you refer to reside within our own minds, not in the other people or the world outside of YOU. That battle is an inner battle between LOVE and HATE. Between proper judgment and blind judgment.

Yeah, you're a Calvinist lol..

I have no need to insult 'believers' when the facts are on the table. I know who my enemies are and God shows them to me continually, not only in myself but in others who cannot see or hear. If you think that makes me a Calvinist, again, you are simply not able to hear. I don't hold that against you as I know the cause that is 'not you.'

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

I think it means exactly what I said about the just being counted with the sinners so all could be gathered in mercy and that only the proud would resist. It certainly doesn't imply a freewill by any means I can discern. What do you think it means?

I think it means exactly what it says.. that all men in Adam (born naturally according to the FLESH) are under condemnation. The rest of Romans 5 (and other portions of Romans) explains this in detail..

We're ALL sinners.. and the only way that ANY sinner is justified is by placing their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.. as His grace is unto all and upon all those that believe.. and even AFTER a person is in Christ, their old nature according to the FLESH remains condemned.. it's the life (SPIRIT) of Christ within the believer that is justified.

I would agree that this has nothing to do with a persons ability to HEAR the gospel and then to react to its message.. other portions of scripture make that perfectly clear.. unless you subscribe to Calvinism.. then imo there's nothing that can cure that.. lol

 

[Eventide]

I do NOT hold to 'Calvinism.' They, like every other position have 'some things' correct.

How would you know, are you the STANDARD for what is correct and not correct ?

You might consider that God has other things in His Mind when 'HE' allows Satan to steal, blind, deafen people when they hear His Words, and that is to perform His Ultimate Judgment upon SATAN.

So even by not hearing, those blind deaf peoples minds are in fact serving Gods Purposes for the judgment of SATAN. This working is not lost on God nor does it make God cruel whatsoever.

The facts of the workings of Satan have been openly put before you and shown to be within peoples minds, hearts, ears and eyes.

Why is it that YOU cannot see or hear these facts? The answer from one who does is resoundingly clear. I have been given 'no choice' but to see the obvious by my Maker. I can not deny those facts because HE has opened my ears and eyes to those facts.

I am well aware of the facts of scripture.. I simply don't come to the same conclusions which you have.. and I know that HE is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world..

Needless to say it changed my 'theological' perspectives dramatically when the facts that have always been there in the scriptures FINALLY took hold and showed me. Until that time, I too believed 'for myself' but did not have Gods Vision on this particular subject. It is something I have been taught By The Word and The Spirit from a very long term exposure to same.

I readily admit my continuing partial sight of all of Gods Words AND more importantly I no longer am required to LIE to myself about the source of temptations in MY OWN MIND. They are not 'from ME.' There I make my battles as He Leads.



Were 'men' the only will in play you'd have a point, but that is not the case. And the very powers that you refer to reside within our own minds, not in the other people or the world outside of YOU. That battle is an inner battle between LOVE and HATE. Between proper judgment and blind judgment.


I have no need to insult 'believers' when the facts are on the table. I know who my enemies are and God shows them to me continually, not only in myself but in others who cannot see or hear. If you think that makes me a Calvinist, again, you are simply not able to hear. I don't hold that against you as I know the cause that is 'not you.'

enjoy!

s

So it's insulting to label you a Calvinist.. ? From what I've seen, the only theology which teaches that men can't hear the gospel unless God allows it comes from Calvinism.. so if the shoe fits.. then wear it.

 

[childeye]

I think it means exactly what it says.. that all men in Adam (born naturally according to the FLESH) are under condemnation. The rest of Romans 5 (and other portions of Romans) explains this in detail..

We're ALL sinners.. and the only way that ANY sinner is justified is by placing their faith and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ.. as His grace is unto all and upon all those that believe.. and even AFTER a person is in Christ, their old nature according to the FLESH remains condemned.. it's the life (SPIRIT) of Christ within the believer that is justified.

I would agree that this has nothing to do with a persons ability to HEAR the gospel and then to react to its message.. other portions of scripture make that perfectly clear.. unless you subscribe to Calvinism.. then imo there's nothing that can cure that.. lol

I will forego any complaints about semantics in this case since I feel safe to assume what you mean, now that I know you a little better Eventide, and say I agree with you according to my understanding of what you are saying. I would add that if we are to have access to the grace that freely justifies us we cannot blame others for their sin without falling from that grace. God is blaming the flesh to justify the person and so should we. Let all men be liars that God be true. I can't comment on the Calvinism thing since I've never studied it.

 

[smaller]

How would you know, are you the STANDARD for what is correct and not correct ?

Love your neighbors
Resist Satan

This is The Gospel. There is no other Gospel

I am well aware of the facts of scripture.. I simply don't come to the same conclusions which you have.. and I know that HE is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world..

I have nothing against my neighbors on ANY scriptural basis, period. Here is what Paul says about how God in Christ sees these matters of 'sin' in relation to 'man:'

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

So no, I am not a Calvinist. I do NOT think my neighbors are 'totally depraved.' But the ones that don't hear are obviously blinded in mind by 'the god of this world' who IS totally depraved. So, 'all' carry total depravity within their hearts from a 'source' that is not them, but IS of Satan.

So it's insulting to label you a Calvinist.. ? From what I've seen, the only theology which teaches that men can't hear the gospel unless God allows it comes from Calvinism.. so if the shoe fits.. then wear it.

I'd suggest a closer read if you can muster it. Won't hold my breath.

Is there a freewiller among you who can admit to the facts that Paul confessed?

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

None of us 'escape' this 'law.' So freewillers are left with only one conclusion, that they themselves are EVIL.

I do not accept that premise.

Here is another 'confession' of an Apostle:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Is there only "1" freewiller here who can with all the freewill they can muster, admit that Satan has stolen Word from your heart, or placed temptations in your MIND and that this means Satan was in your WILL??? Is there only "1" freewiller who can admit that the devil is involved with your SIN and your EVIL WORKS???

1 John 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Is there but "1" freewiller who can speak even the simplest of truth using their freewill to make this connection for themselves???

No, they can not. Why? Because the WILL of the resistor is working in them and upon them even as they read those statements. So, some freewiller is welcome to surprise me and show me 'their truth.'

I will laugh all the day long at every freewiller who cannot speak those truths to themselves. They cannot because of that working in them which will not allow that to be seen, heard or spoken. I do not laugh at the believer, but what they carry with them in their MIND that is NOT THEM.

Psalm 2:
1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

enjoy!

s

 

[Eventide]

I would add that if we are to have access to the grace that freely justifies us we cannot blame others for their sin without falling from that grace. God is blaming the flesh to justify the person and so should we.

Allow me to use a simple example.. I steal a car.. a judge sentences ME to some jail time..

Are you saying that this isn't right ? That the person doing the stealing isn't to blame and shouldn't be sentenced ?

 

[Eventide]

Love your neighbors
Resist Satan

This is The Gospel. There is no other Gospel

What's this have to do with your comment about some things being correct and not others.. and my response in asking how you'd know that ?

 

[smaller]

What's this have to do with your comment about some things being correct and not others.. and my response in asking how you'd know that ?

There is no error in loving our neighbors as ourselves.

There is no error in resisting Satan.

Any questions?

See my post before this one and see if your freewill can work to address some very simple observations.

s

 

[Eventide]

There is no error in loving our neighbors as ourselves.

There is no error in resisting Satan.

Any questions?

Yeah, one more time.. what's it have to do with your previous comment about some things being correct ?

See my post before this one and see if your freewill can work to address some very simple observations.

s

Anything specifically that you'd like to address..? Just ask plainly.

 

[smaller]

Yeah, one more time.. what's it have to do with your previous comment about some things being correct ?



Anything specifically that you'd like to address..? Just ask plainly.

Uh, yeah, that would be the questions followed by question marks.

 

[Eventide]

Uh, yeah, that would be the questions followed by question marks.

So correct me if I'm wrong.. although the summary of what you seem to believe is that the gospel itself is powerless against the lies of Satan unless God allows a person to hear it.. ?

Is that close to what your argument is here ?

 

[childeye]

Childeye

I believe that everyone from Adam on down is responsible for their own thinking and their own actions. And in order for that to be true, we must have the freedom to choose what to think and do. And to me that’s free will.

Are you telling me that the Bible teaches something other than that?

FC

Yes exactly. The New Testament teaches opposite of that. Look at Paul the Apostle who once was Saul who hunted down and stoned christians. They both thought they were serving God yet one was deceived, one wasn't and that determined their actions. The thoughts of the ignorant mind by default cannot be expected to think rational thoughts although those thoughts seem perfecly rational to the ignorant.
Freewill is an Old Testament Concept and those who are the enemies of the Gospel, but beloved for God's sake, believe in freewill. Satan introduced the concept of being free to disobey God and live, not God or man. The word free is particularly seductive. Note if I ask someone who believes in freewill if there is such thing as an enslaved will, they will most likely say no after contemplating such a thought. The term is therefore lost in semantics without any practical application. Free from what? What they are defining is simply a will not necessarily free. A will that must choose and must go somewhere. Since God is our Creator, I believe subconsciously by default we apply it to freedom from God. This is the foundation of temptation based on a corrupt and untrue image of a tyrant god. Beleiving in the Christ destroys this foundation since who wouldn't trust someone who suffered and died for you? Who would seek freedom from such a God?

 

[Eventide]

Allow me to ask another question..

Since the basic argument is that all sin is derived from Satan (which I would agree with btw).. do you believe that all men will be saved (universalism) since it's not ultimately their fault ?

 

[childeye]

Allow me to use a simple example.. I steal a car.. a judge sentences ME to some jail time..

Are you saying that this isn't right ? That the person doing the stealing isn't to blame and shouldn't be sentenced ?

No of course not although all of it is vanity. I'm simply saying that love keeps people from stealing for carnal gain. While a person could steal for Godly gain and it would be the right thing to do according to love. Poor example due to semantics.

 

[childeye]

Allow me to ask another question..

Since the basic argument is that all sin is derived from Satan (which I would agree with btw).. do you believe that all men will be saved (universalism) since it's not ultimately their fault ?

I would only venture to say that it is right thinking according to scripture to hope that all men be saved.

 

[Eventide]

No of course not although all of it is vanity.

How so.. there was a crime comitted according to the law and a judge sentenced the person accordingly.. how is that vanity ?

I'm simply saying that love keeps people from stealing for carnal gain. While a person could steal for Godly gain and it would be the right thing to do according to love. Poor example due to semantics.

I agree completely, although that's the point.. is your argument that I had absolutely no choice in the matter because I didn't embrace the love of the truth at this point in my life ?

 

[Eventide]

I would only venture to say that it is right thinking according to scripture to hope that all men be saved.

I do wish that all men will be saved although I don't see this being the case in the scriptures..

What's your opinion.. do you actually believe that all men will be saved because ultimately sin is not their fault ?

 

[smaller]

Allow me to ask another question..

Since the basic argument is that all sin is derived from Satan (which I would agree with btw).. do you believe that all men will be saved (universalism) since it's not ultimately their fault ?

Loving our neighbors as ourselves is off topic matter here.