FREE WILL

[Eventide]

I didn't miss your point, I am avoiding the inherent pitfalls that come with semantics. So I will respond this way. Men are condemned as in a state of corruption so as to gather up all in mercy. It is done this way to filter out the Spirit of Satan in the flesh of man. The Christ is the door through which Satan cannot pass for he does not comprehend purity of heart nor holiness. Those who are pure of heart know evil is temporal and so they know all evil is based upon a lie that will not endure. Therefore they know that men who do evil are deceived. Those who see Jesus endure the cross and yet forgive those who crucified him see this purity that is Godly. Belief in Jesus then justifies the believer showing the believer to be pure of heart and unbelievers unaware of what they are doing.

So then what's your answer.. are all men condemned (by God) in Adam or not ?

Why are we all condemned in Adam ?

 

[childeye]

Childeye-
You have helped me immensely!
Just want to thank you for your posts.

No Jennie thank God for you and this thread.

 

[childeye]

So then what's your answer.. are all men condemned (by God) in Adam or not ?

Why are we all condemned in Adam ?

I can't say all men are condemned by God for I truly don't know. Enoch was born of Adam yet he was transformed whatever that means, Abel was killed. Job was an upright man according to scipture. I don't think God condemned them, I don't think He condemned Abraham. Jesus said he came to call the sinners to repentance, not the righteous and that the sick need a doctor. Yet for the sake of eliminating pride God might condemn the just knowing the just would accept God's judgment and be counted with sinners without complaint, only the proud would resist.

 

[smaller]

So then what's your answer.. are all men condemned (by God) in Adam or not ?

Why are we all condemned in Adam ?

By one man sin entered the world, and death through sin. That man was Adam. And sin has been handed down to all of us therein.

Believers claim they have freedom of will if only they would have exercised same 'differently' than Adam.

Any legitimate observation of Adam must include the 'fact' that Adam was Gods son. (Luke 3:38)

Are we to conclude then that God fostered a 'sinning son?'

The only reasonable conclusion is that Adam was made 'subject to' many things, primarily by God for Gods Intended Purposes. What was Adam made subject to by God?

Paul defines this for us:

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam has no 'choice' in that subjection, neither could Adam 'free' himself from a condition that God Intended. All the will of Adam could not change the intentions of God in placing Adam into the subjection of vanity.

Neither can any of us by an exercise of 'will' of any sort, avoid what conditions this vanity God subjected us all to avoid this conclusion:

Romans 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

It was God who predestined his son, Adam to be subject to pain, to vanity and ultimately to death. I personally do not see Gods Intentions with Adam to leave him in the wet pile of his dust (earth) body for all of live long eternity.

After the order of God, which again, Paul defines to us all, God fully intended there to be a first or natural Adam, after death followed by a Spiritual Adam:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The above describes the 'exact' condition of Adam and every progeny that resulted therein, and it was 'ALL' a working of God that no man by exercise of freewill can change. The bold are the facts.

Adam was:

Sown in corruption
Sown in dishonour
Sown in weakness
Sown in a natural body

And so is everyone else who is a progeny of Adam. Yet Adam never ceased from being Gods son, as Adam was still noted as one in Luke 3:38.

God had intentions with Adam. None of Adams exercise of will could have changed 'any' of that, neither would an exercise of will be the basis of Gods final conclusion for Adam:

Raised in incorruption
Raised in power
Raised in a spiritual body

None of these workings were based on Adam or the power of Adam to make 'decisions' about same. No decision of Adam in part 1 of his life changed any of Gods Intentions, and likewise no decision of Adam in part 2 could have thwarted Gods Intentions for His son, Adam.

Adam was in short made 'subject to' many things by God including the power of death, vanity, corruption, weakness and dishonour.

Any believer who 'thinks' they have avoided all these facts by their decision making power is chasing their tails. No thought, no decisions by your POWER changes any of that neither is it the 'basis' of Gods Intentions.

God did not put any of us here in order to justify us by our decision making prowess on the good side of the ledger.

I do not doubt that the exercise this present life brings in relationship to vanity was from God, in vain. In this exercise a very real HOPE becomes a reality for us, and the harsh conditions of our mutual plantings does bring the HOPE for it to end, and for something better.

When we understand these facts as personal to ourselves (as if any willpower changes these facts, as it does not) we see in the conclusion that it is God who has something 'better' in His Mind about all of these things:

Hebrews 11:
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now this exact statement above is quite hidden by intentions of the Holy Spirit. If one is not reading closely they will see the NOT be made perfect, but the PROMISE contained therein is that they, with us WILL be made PERFECT by God.

No mans will can do that. Common sense tells us that is impossible. Such a matter could never be left to the will of the imperfect who knowing their condition attempts such a matter unto their own will. Perfection MUST be The Only Source of The Final Outcome.

Mans will cannot provide that. Only God can deliver on the 'goods' of eternity.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[childeye]

By one man sin entered the world, and death through sin. That man was Adam. And sin has been handed down to all of us therein.

Believers claim they have freedom of will if only they would have exercised same 'differently' than Adam.

Any legitimate observation of Adam must include the 'fact' that Adam was Gods son. (Luke 3:38)

Are we to conclude then that God fostered a 'sinning son?'

The only reasonable conclusion is that Adam was made 'subject to' many things, primarily by God for Gods Intended Purposes. What was Adam made subject to by God?

Paul defines this for us:

Romans 8:
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

Adam has no 'choice' in that subjection, neither could Adam 'free' himself from a condition that God Intended. All the will of Adam could not change the intentions of God in placing Adam into the subjection of vanity.

Neither can any of us by an exercise of 'will' of any sort, avoid what conditions this vanity God subjected us all to avoid this conclusion:

Romans 8:
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

It was God who predestined his son, Adam to be subject to pain, to vanity and ultimately to death. I personally do not see Gods Intentions with Adam to leave him in the wet pile of his dust (earth) body for all of live long eternity.

After the order of God, which again, Paul defines to us all, God fully intended there to be a first or natural Adam, after death followed by a Spiritual Adam:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.

The above describes the 'exact' condition of Adam and every progeny that resulted therein, and it was 'ALL' a working of God that no man by exercise of freewill can change. The bold are the facts.

Adam was:

Sown in corruption
Sown in dishonour
Sown in weakness
Sown in a natural body

And so is everyone else who is a progeny of Adam. Yet Adam never ceased from being Gods son, as Adam was still noted as one in Luke 3:38.

God had intentions with Adam. None of Adams exercise of will could have changed 'any' of that, neither would an exercise of will be the basis of Gods final conclusion for Adam:

Raised in incorruption
Raised in power
Raised in a spiritual body

None of these workings were based on Adam or the power of Adam to make 'decisions' about same. No decision of Adam in part 1 of his life changed any of Gods Intentions, and likewise no decision of Adam in part 2 could have thwarted Gods Intentions for His son, Adam.

Adam was in short made 'subject to' many things by God including the power of death, vanity, corruption, weakness and dishonour.

Any believer who 'thinks' they have avoided all these facts by their decision making power is chasing their tails. No thought, no decisions by your POWER changes any of that neither is it the 'basis' of Gods Intentions.

God did not put any of us here in order to justify us by our decision making prowess on the good side of the ledger.

I do not doubt that the exercise this present life brings in relationship to vanity was from God, in vain. In this exercise a very real HOPE becomes a reality for us, and the harsh conditions of our mutual plantings does bring the HOPE for it to end, and for something better.

When we understand these facts as personal to ourselves (as if any willpower changes these facts, as it does not) we see in the conclusion that it is God who has something 'better' in His Mind about all of these things:

Hebrews 11:
Hebrews 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now this exact statement above is quite hidden by intentions of the Holy Spirit. If one is not reading closely they will see the NOT be made perfect, but the PROMISE contained therein is that they, with us WILL be made PERFECT by God.

No mans will can do that. Common sense tells us that is impossible. Such a matter could never be left to the will of the imperfect who knowing their condition attempts such a matter unto their own will. Perfection MUST be The Only Source of The Final Outcome.

Mans will cannot provide that. Only God can deliver on the 'goods' of eternity.

enjoy!

smaller

Wow!!! Absolutely, definitively Great cooking for the appetite of my conviction. Impressive writing, smaller yet BIGGER through Christ. I'm on my face after reading that and not because I choose to but because I want to, I am moved to, I have to. Love that God.

 

[smaller]

Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

When God Himself reconciles the fact that we all were once alienated 'in our minds' by the enemy, Satan, we then 'saw' our previous condition and seek NOT to be 'mixed' with that evil mind.

But that IS the present condition of 'all' unbelievers. We therefore do NOT blame them, nor consider them 'free willed' when they are in fact alienated by the enemy who has BLINDED THEM. (2 Cor. 4:4)

It is not 'our call' whom God allows to see or not see. Those who think they 'see' yet do not see the enemy OVER and UPON those who are so blinded do not see as well as they have been led to 'think.'

To blame the unbeliever on the basis of their blinded minds, calling them 'free' willed is in fact a working of Satan in such viewers, openly shown, and in complete neglect of their obvious state of mind. BLINDED, CAPTIVE, DEAF, LAME, SICK, IN PRISON, NAKED, THIRSTY all via CAPTURE of their MINDs.

s

 

[childeye]

Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

When God Himself reconciles the fact that we all were once alienated 'in our minds' by the enemy, Satan, we then 'saw' our previous condition and seek NOT to be 'mixed' with that evil mind.

But that IS the present condition of 'all' unbelievers. We therefore do NOT blame them, nor consider them 'free willed' when they are in fact alienated by the enemy who has BLINDED THEM. (2 Cor. 4:4)

It is not 'our call' whom God allows to see or not see. Those who think they 'see' yet do not see the enemy OVER and UPON those who are so blinded do not see as well as they have been led to 'think.'

To blame the unbeliever on the basis of their blinded minds, calling them 'free' willed is in fact a working of Satan in such viewers, openly shown, and in complete neglect of their obvious state of mind. BLINDED, CAPTIVE, DEAF, LAME, SICK, IN PRISON, NAKED, THIRSTY all via CAPTURE of their MINDs.

s

You and I see the same Truth. It may not ultimately be our call who sees, although I sincerely pray that my loved one's see. And if God is so moved by my supplications, perhaps I do have some power albeit only through the Holy Spirit. Notice I have just said it is not my call yet perhaps it may be my call? Semantics. In one sense what I say is true in another sense it is not. Quite the playground for a learned prosecuter such as Satan.

Regarding the teaching that God gave man a freewill specifically and theologically defined as being given the ability to disobey God, I find that scripture shows only that Satan proposed this. He was the one who said we could disobey God and live while God never said such a thing. Moreover it is unfathomable to me how those who believe in such a so called freewill, do not acknowledge this. Furthermore, they do not see that they are saying God gave them the ability to sin. They presume to have obedience they must also have the choice of disobedience, putting the power to be righteous at their own discretion. I don't see anybody able to overcome sin through such self-willed obedience and therefore no proof that such a freewill exists. Hence I view sin as a disability not an ability. Semantics again. So I like your terms or rather Christ's terms, BLIND, CAPTIVE , DEAF, LAME, SICK, IN PRISON, NAKED, THIRSTY. These are all Gospel terms used by those who preach the true Gospel. The Freewill theology simply says "choose to be good" which is Old Testament. They have no use for such terms as I see it, they never use them as a recognition of a disability or a helplessness. I do believe this is pride. I have said all of this so that any here who believe in freewill might explain this to me.

 

[smaller]

You and I see the same Truth. It may not ultimately be our call who sees, although I sincerely pray that my loved one's see. And if God is so moved by my supplications, perhaps I do have some power albeit only through the Holy Spirit. Notice I have just said it is not my call yet perhaps it may be my call? Semantics. In one sense what I say is true in another sense it is not. Quite the playground for a learned prosecuter such as Satan.

Regarding the teaching that God gave man a freewill specifically and theologically defined as being given the ability to disobey God, I find that scripture shows only that Satan proposed this. He was the one who said we could disobey God and live while God never said such a thing. Moreover it is unfathomable to me how those who believe in such a so called freewill, do not acknowledge this. Furthermore, they do not see that they are saying God gave them the ability to sin. They presume to have obedience they must also have the choice of disobedience, putting the power to be righteous at their own discretion. I don't see anybody able to overcome sin through such self-willed obedience and therefore no proof that such a freewill exists. Hence I view sin as a disability not an ability. Semantics again. So I like your terms or rather Christ's terms, BLIND, CAPTIVE , DEAF, LAME, SICK, IN PRISON, NAKED, THIRSTY. These are all Gospel terms used by those who preach the true Gospel. The Freewill theology simply says "choose to be good" which is Old Testament. They have no use for such terms as I see it, they never use them as a recognition of a disability or a helplessness. I do believe this is pride. I have said all of this so that any here who believe in freewill might explain this to me.

Perhaps we could say that it is true for one and not true for the other and both parties are in play at all times.

When any man repents it does no good for the 'evil present' therein and avails same nothing.

On same token continuation of blindness will serve to show Gods Power over same. In this I remain with Hope for All and believe God is entirely faithful and capable.

s

 

[Elijah674]

Free will! This is Christ the Word WORDS!;)

John 1. The Word of Christ/God finds Matt. 4:4 The COMPLETE BOOK! It was the Jer. 17:5 ones that divided it into 'atoms' as they desired!

Christ [DOCUMENTED]..
John
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. +

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(And then most do not even know where Christ found this Truth from! Job said..' Neither have I gone back (the back/slider!) from the commandment of [HIS LIPS]; I have [esteemed the WORDS OF HIS MOUTH] more than [my necessary food].' see ibid 10-12!)

2 Tim. 3

[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(And you can be sure that this include only the ones who LOVE Christ! From the start He documented.. 'If ye love Me, keep my commandments.' And that is His Number 1 Doctrine of saved man having free/will.. if he will?!)

Deut. 4

[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
​

(And free will finds that one can & does do the above! and if one does not know who 'Spiritual Israel is?? You can know that you are Not Born Again! Rom. 2:28-29.. 1 John 4:6!)
Prov. 30:5-6
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[6] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
(But this many do as they have the free/will to do so! And NO LIAR will be saved! Rev. 21:27)


Eccl. 3

[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or says!) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Exod. 32

[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
[31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him [will I blot out of my book.]

Eccl. 3:15 [documented] 'Nothing New Under The Sun!'
And it was uninspired man that divided [THE BOOK] in two, + chapters, periods, coma's & the like! But God WARNED of messing around with His BOOK from start to Rev.'s FINISH!

Rev. 22

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(And yet we have this being taught with this adding to the Book that mankind has NO free/will! And he is doing the exact thing that will require for his name to be removed from the Book of Life.. if it was ever there to begine with?

--Elijah
​

 

[childeye]

Free will! This is Christ the Word WORDS!;)

John 1. The Word of Christ/God finds Matt. 4:4 The COMPLETE BOOK! It was the Jer. 17:5 ones that divided it into 'atoms' as they desired!

Christ [DOCUMENTED]..
John
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. +

Matt.4
[4] But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
(And then most do not even know where Christ found this Truth from! Job said..' Neither have I gone back (the back/slider!) from the commandment of [HIS LIPS]; I have [esteemed the WORDS OF HIS MOUTH] more than [my necessary food].' see ibid 10-12!)

2 Tim. 3

[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, forreproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

(And you can be sure that this include only the ones who LOVE Christ! From the start He documented.. 'If ye love Me, keep my commandments.' And that is His Number 1 Doctrine of saved man having free/will.. if he will?!)

Deut. 4

[1] Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

​

(And free will finds that one can & does do the above! and if one does not know who 'Spiritual Israel is?? You can know that you are Not Born Again! Rom. 2:28-29.. 1 John 4:6!)
Prov. 30:5-6
[5] Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
[6] Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
(But this many do as they have the free/will to do so! And NO LIAR will be saved! Rev. 21:27)


Eccl. 3

[14] I know that, whatsoever God doeth, (or says!) it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

Exod. 32

[30] And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the LORD; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
[31] And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
[32] Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
[33] And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him [will I blot out of my book.]

Eccl. 3:15 [documented] 'Nothing New Under The Sun!'
And it was uninspired man that divided [THE BOOK] in two, + chapters, periods, coma's & the like! But God WARNED of messing around with His BOOK from start to Rev.'s FINISH!

Rev. 22

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(And yet we have this being taught with this adding to the Book that mankind has NO free/will! And he is doing the exact thing that will require for his name to be removed from the Book of Life.. if it was ever there to begine with?

--Elijah

​

I am not sure I understand what you're getting at. Are you saying that people who believe in freewill according to your understanding of the definition do the commandments, and people who don't believe in freewill as you define it, don't do the commandments?

We're merely saying Love fulfills the law. I'm talking about sell all your possessions and give them to the poor type of love. That Godly Love is hindered when we pollute ourselves you must consider. Otherwise it would not be God it would be us. I believe in His Spirit as Love. I feel love, I don't decide to Love. I don't squeeze a teardrop out by my freedom of action. Nor do I read the bible to learn when I should laugh or and when I should cry. My pride goeth before a fall and I don't see it coming. These have nothing against the commandments. I believe in His Spirit as the Love that comes from the Holy Spirit in the name of Jesus and I shout it from the mountain tops that God is real and by His Will He will fulfill. Humility and honesty will set you free but first you must see.

 

[ivdavid]

Former Christian,

I need to clarify some things here.
Reading through, I noticed that you have made certain assumptions of my beliefs based on the questions I've asked. Certain questions were rhetorical and hence it's natural that you have supposed me to be making such rhetoric - but that's not the case. I am trying to understand as much of your current belief framework as possible and these questions are to that end alone.
Wherever I'm confused over what you believe, I ask a question. Wherever I'm pretty sure we agree on the same thing, I don't bring that into the discussion. Wherever I'm inclined to think that we agree but am not very sure, I have simply stated my beliefs or what I believe you've said.


FC - "It is the one who insists on there being one understanding of truth that ends up being either a relativist saying that everyone’s truth is really truth or just thinking their own truth is the truth and that everyone else must believe in that truth or else. "

Can't I safely say that there is only one understanding of truth and still maintain that not everyone's differing 'truth' is simultaneously true. And as you have differentiated, there is 'truth' learned by man and there is truth taught by God as an experiential reality. I believe the latter to be absolutely true always. From my side, I would add that every experiential teaching of God always finds confirmation in Scripture without exception. I think you have stated something similar too. Perhaps, the experiential reality could be that of being taught of God from Scriptures itself - similar to Luke 24:27. So, 'my own truth' can never be absolute - and if it isn't mine but taught of God, then it cannot be but absolutely true. What else is faith - isn't it the absolute certainty concerning God - and lest it be based on our corrupt efforts, it is a gift given by God.


FC - "You are not considering the possibility of a growth factor."

It is because I am considering this that I cannot reconcile with your claiming that there is no way we can be sure of truth. See, if I am growing, that means I am being built on something - something foundational and sure. I think you are basing the uncertainty of everything on this experience -
"What is true today, tomorrow may be added to or even changed if we discover that the truth we believed yesterday is wrong."
If truth is added tomorrow by God, then what I already have is truth from God - absolute,certain. If what I believe today is shown to be wrong tomorrow, then what I've believed is not truth gone wrong, I've believed a lie and this never came from God - what came from God is the correction and that is now truth. The way I see it, what God teaches you has absolute certainty. Am I dealing with some blind spots here - help me out.


FC - "We are all in a state of growth, or we should be. It is impossible to make authoritative statements under those circumstances."

What do you mean by authoritative here - is it forcing/manipulating someone to believe you based on your credentials - or is it sharing the truth taught to you by God as absolute truths? If it's the latter, doesn't it have authority simply as the word of God? I'm sincerely confused here - I believe Paul,Peter made authoritative statements in the sense, they stated truth with absolute certainty. They weren't capricious about how it could be truth today, untruth tomorrow etc.
I think your problem is where people cross the line - and state as absolute truth what they've not been taught of God. This is a grave issue. But does it lead to your conclusion that there can be no certainty at all?

Our understanding of truth is not relative in the sense that each one has the same truth in different ways - it is relative in the sense that God is teaching each of His people differently. Romans 14 comes to mind for differences in beliefs but it is resolved by stating that God is sufficient and able to make all His people stand fast. One of the truths stated in Romans 14 is that the kingdom of God is not meat and drink - some believe so and act accordingly, some don't. Doesn't mean that there are various versions of truth - it just means that some have attained unto this truth because God led them there - and that God is sufficient to make everybody steadfast in Him.

continued...

 

[ivdavid]

Former Christian,

FC - "Jesus is referring to himself, not just doctrine"

Seeing you make such a distinction, I realize we don't mean the same thing by "doctrine". I checked the oxford dictionary you refer to and immediately found out why you don't have too high an opinion on 'doctrine'.
Doctrine - a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, political party, or other group.
I didn't realize that this is the definition it has become. I mean, the Bible renders it to the effect of simply "that which is taught". God teaches us ; what He teaches is what I usually refer to as 'doctrine'. And all His teachings serve the purpose of bringing us into greater knowledge of Him. And when we know Him better, we are irresistibly drawn to love Him more. So doctrines are the means of knowing God to the end that we love Him. Of course, when people make such teachings an end in itself and miss out on the person the teachings point to, or when they stop at 'knowing' Him without being moved to love Him, they have lost out on its very purpose.


FC - "Now, doctrines are a different story. Whether we accept or deny that we have any free will is doctrinal and the opinions concerning doctrines abound and will never be resolved because of their nature."

Here, you are not referring to the same thing as doctrine - so, there's bound to be some confusion - let's clarify the ambiguous areas. First, I'll operate under your definition. According to your reference, I agree that man's understanding of what he himself assumes will never find resolution and unity. I disagree that our beliefs on freewill is 'doctrinal' in the sense of merely being a theoretical study by man. There might be human interpretations out there that you reject but nonetheless, the humans out there are trying to interpret what is laid down in Scripture. And if it's in Scripture, it is meant for our edification in Christ and for our love to abound in the knowledge of God. It is, however, not in man's capacity to learn from Scripture until taught by God.

Now, operating under my usage of 'doctrine', they are always resolved when taught by God because that is what they are - teachings of God. The Jerusalem Council and Paul,Barnabas were united by God through resolution. And there is no inconsequential doctrine/teaching - all point to Him and show us more of Him and His glory.

And then there is "that which is taught" apart from God - and these are the false doctrines the Bible warns us against. We see a lot of them in Christian circles - but I take them as the weeds amidst the wheat. There is true knowledge amongst those being taught by God here, amongst these denominations too. I suppose you never made the claim to the contrary.


FC - "If it is doctrinal certainty you want you will have to choose a denomination and stay there."
The way you mean 'doctrine', perhaps. But the way I mean it, receiving doctrinal certainty just by being taught of God with His confirmation of it in Scripture is independent of denominations and man.


FC - "Everything in the Bible is the truth, the objective truth."
We agree on this gladly. I too agree that man cannot attain unto such truth by himself.

FC - "You won’t even find certainty of doctrinal truth within the pages of the Bible, no matter how much you interpret it."
A difference of opinion because of us using different meanings to the same word? Well, I believe that all that God teaches are conveyed in the Bible and that there is unambiguous consistency within and among all such teachings.


FC - "The Bible is intended to be used to teach us experientially"
These verses came up -
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
We need His word abiding in us - else we are unable even to believe truth. And Scriptures are not the source of eternal life - Jesus Christ is. The Bible only points to Him as testimony. So, I would never say that the Bible is an end in itself. I wouldn't say that Bible has the power to do something when God does all things. I agree that it is God who teaches us truth - and to me, that is my certainty of truth.


continued...

 

[WIP]

Feewill defined as being able to choose to sin is a misnomer.

I'm not so sure any of us choose sin. I think we sin out of habit and nature. What we are able to do because of the free will God gave us is to choose repentance. We will sin. The question is will we choose to repent and seek God rather than continue to accept sin as a way of life.

 

[ivdavid]

Former Christian,

FC - "Scripture states that we aren’t under Law in regards to sin."
The question on Rom 6:14 was to find out what you meant by "interpretation". I think we are not on the same page there. I think this is the way you see it -
1. Man reads Bible.
2. Man understands meaning plainly; he accepts it but cannot be 'authoritative' in claiming that this is absolute truth.
3. Man is not sure of plain meaning from among multiple possibilities; he assigns a particular meaning by his own discretion/thinking/understanding. Therein Man interprets. To not interpret would be to not conclude on it till taught by God.

Am I right? If I'm not, ignore the rest of this para on this. Well, to me, step 2 is also interpretation. 'Plain' understanding could also arise where there are multiple possibilities of meaning(step 3) with you being aware of only one. In that sense, I think it's inevitable that one interprets, else you won't be able to conclude on anything false at all, ever,(which is not true). Now truth comes only when taught of God - which He does faithfully in all His people.


FC - "Before being in Christ, we walked in trespasses and sins. Does everyone you know who is definitely not in Christ walk in trespasses and sins completely?"
Before being in Christ, we walked in trespasses and sins - always. This was the very first experiential reality God took me through. In that regard, my answer to your question is yes.

FC - "They don’t go around deliberately trying to hurt people by word or action. Rather, they try to help when they can....Some of them are even my friends."
This is a true observation. Guess we have each "interpreted" the meaning of 'trespasses and sins' differently.

FC - "They also walk by their conscience. And Paul refers to such people in Romans 2."
If you're referring to Romans 2:15, the purpose seems to be of drawing them into condemnation under the law by showing them that they cannot use 'not having a law from God' as an excuse - so that the news that we are "no longer under the law but under grace" is truly Gospel.

FC - "They walk by their own soul and thus are very soulish and earthbound people."
This is new to me. Walking by the flesh and walking by the Spirit were the only 'walks' I was aware of. Do you mind elaborating.

FC - "You bring up questions that would take a whole thread to answer adequately."
. I'll tone down a bit.

 

[Eventide]

I can't say all men are condemned by God for I truly don't know.

Well, what's this verse mean to you..?

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Eventide]

By one man sin entered the world, and death through sin. That man was Adam. And sin has been handed down to all of us therein.

Believers claim they have freedom of will if only they would have exercised same 'differently' than Adam.

No, many people simply believe that they were free to hear the gospel of God concerning His Son and then either embrace it by faith or reject it..

So, as I asked long before in this thread.. were you free to hear the gospel and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Yes, No ?

 

[Elijah674]

No, many people simply believe that they were free to hear the gospel of God concerning His Son and then either embrace it by faith or reject it..

So, as I asked long before in this thread.. were you free to hear the gospel and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..

Yes, No ?[/QUOTE]

The question as 'i' see it is a fatal one when Maturity was found! (Early Rain & Latter Rain time.. Acts 5 + Acts 3:19's Repeat) See first Eccl. 3:14's first WARNING, and then this LAST TIME WARNING in..

Rev. 22
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, [let him] take the water of life freely.

[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

--Elijah

 

[smaller]

No, many people simply believe that they were free to hear the gospel of God concerning His Son and then either embrace it by faith or reject it..

If you want to call any 'mind' or 'will' that is blinded by the 'god of this world,' that would be Satan, as free, you are welcome to do so.

I cannot in 'good faith' see the facts that way because, in short, it is not true to what we are presented in His Words.

So, as I asked long before in this thread.. were you free to hear the gospel and then believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..

If man were 'alone' in mind or will, you'd certainly have a point. But the resistor does resist and block the Word of the Gospel, as Jesus taught us 'all.' The resistor however could care less what God Says. At the point of hearing, there are 'two parties' in play. The mind of the man and the will of the devil who STEALS WORD from people.

And no matter how many times the 'facts' are repeated, 'believers' still can't seem to Hear His Words on this particular subject, which is to me a resounding signal of the Truth of His Words:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Yes, No ?

Assuredly and resoundingly NO!

ANY believer who reads Jesus' Words above and 'doesn't' get the fact that this happens within 'all' mankind inclusive of themselves, are just not capable of listening or even 'hearing' these teachings. I don't blame them because? There is a cause that is not THEM.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

If you can't see the god of this world IN THE MIND of those, I can only make one conclusion...there is another 'operator' in MIND.

We pray for the sight of 'all mankind' and we 'resist the devil.' That is the truthful proclamation of The Gospel.

In the end, it is Gods Choice who hears and who does not hear. No man can hear if and until God Says So.

Here it is again in case you missed it:

Romans 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; ) unto this day.

That 'spirit of slumber' is put upon people by God. How? By them hearing the Words of God and the reaction of the 'god of this world' immediately coming to steal from them.

That my friend is 'how it works' according to Jesus. All of you 'free'willers are welcome to overlook these facts. There is nothing any man can do for you in this regard.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

I'm not so sure any of us choose sin. I think we sin out of habit and nature. What we are able to do because of the free will God gave us is to choose repentance. We will sin. The question is will we choose to repent and seek God rather than continue to accept sin as a way of life.

This is another definition of freewill that I've encountered frequently. I don't know where the definitive assertion that God gave man a freewill comes from that the rest is built upon? Once a man repents can he then repent of repenting? And here the term repent is defined as a prerogative while to me, who doesn't believe man's will is free at all times, it is a change of direction according to discovering one is lost and heading the wrong way.

 

[Eventide]

If you want to call any 'mind' or 'will' that is blinded by the 'god of this world,' that would be Satan, as free, you are welcome to do so.

Free to hear and free to believe the gospel.. absolutely.. unless of course you're a Calvinist and are led to believe that God only allows specific people to hear and then believe.

I cannot in 'good faith' see the facts that way because, in short, it is not true to what we are presented in His Words.
If man were 'alone' in mind or will, you'd certainly have a point. But the resistor does resist and block the Word of the Gospel, as Jesus taught us 'all.' The resistor however could care less what God Says. At the point of hearing, there are 'two parties' in play. The mind of the man and the will of the devil who STEALS WORD from people.

And no matter how many times the 'facts' are repeated, 'believers' still can't seem to Hear His Words on this particular subject, which is to me a resounding signal of the Truth of His Words:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Luke 8:12
Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Assuredly and resoundingly NO!

ANY believer who reads Jesus' Words above and 'doesn't' get the fact that this happens within 'all' mankind inclusive of themselves, are just not capable of listening or even 'hearing' these teachings. I don't blame them because? There is a cause that is not THEM.

There's no doubt that there is massive deception going on in the world and that we wrestle against the rulers of the darkness of this world.. although none of that teaches me that men cannot hear the gospel and then react to its teaching.

In the end, it is Gods Choice who hears and who does not hear. No man can hear if and until God Says So.

Yeah, you're a Calvinist lol..