Free Will

[atpollard]

So God forces salvation on some but not on others, right?

I HATE the way you phrase things.
It seems deliberately inflammatory and "trolling" for a reaction.
I think you and I will thrive better apart.

L8R,

Arthur

 

[atpollard]

Do those going to heaven know why?
Do we know the reason behind those going to hell?

If you can answer YES to the above, then God is loving, merciful and just.

If you answer NO, then there's a flaw in God's character. And this is not possible.

Why does Light behave as both a particle (able to travel through a vacuum and impart momentum on objects that it strikes - indicating that Light is Matter) and a wave (able to refract as it passes from one medium to another - indicating that Light is Energy)?

I do not know.
Does my IGNORANCE about LIGHT prove ANYTHING about LIGHT? No.
Then why does my IGNORANCE about the DEEP THINGS OF GOD (like salvation) prove ANYTHING about GOD?

 

[GodsGrace]

I also want to add that I chose God because I love and trust God. I want to spend eternity with God. I don't want to be part of Satan's dark kingdom. I want to be where I am safe and loved. I had the choice to decide that based on information from many places. It's free because I had the choice. I am not forced to be this or that. I have the freedom to make the decision on my own. That's how free works.

Freddy when you're hungry you have the freedom to choose to eat. You are not forced to starve. You are not eating because of information about starving. You are making the choice because you're hungry and your body knows what it needs. Same thing with this. It's not that difficult to comprehend.

Hi Marci,
Welcome to the forum!
It's good to have you here.
Please note that the member to whom you're writing will not see the above posts unless you tag him.
This is how:

wondering
You'll notice that after typing in 2 or 3 letters the name will come up ... just click on it.
OR
Use the REPLY button at the lower right hand of the page.
When done, click on POST REPLY.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why does Light behave as both a particle (able to travel through a vacuum and impart momentum on objects that it strikes - indicating that Light is Matter) and a wave (able to refract as it passes from one medium to another - indicating that Light is Energy)?

I do not know.
Does my IGNORANCE about LIGHT prove ANYTHING about LIGHT? No.
Then why does my IGNORANCE about the DEEP THINGS OF GOD (like salvation) prove ANYTHING about GOD?

Because God loves His creation. (us)
Because the bible was written so we could be aware of God,
so we could come to know Him.
Because God would like us, of our own free choice, to love Him back.
He has let us know in the NT how to become saved.

We need to know we are sinners and in need of God.
FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.


We need to know that satan is the ruler of this world.
WE FIGHT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES.
SATAN PROWLS THE EARTH, LOOKING FOR WHOM TO DEVOUR.
THE GOD OF THIS WORLD HAS CLOUDED THE MIND OF UNBELIEVERS.

God made provision for us.
BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.
WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN THE SON WILL BE SAVED.

God made His method be known.
IF WE BELIEVE IN OUR HEART, WE WILL BE SAVED.
WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.
YOU WILL SERVE THE ONE TO WHOM YOU PRESENT YOURSELF.
PRESENT YOURSELF A LIVING SACRIFICE.
OBEY JESUS' COMMANDS.

And how do we know the above.
FAITH COME BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Marci
Welcome to the Forum! wondering and I have discussed with Fastfredy0 this at length. His strategy is this.

First he will ask you to define free will. You will do so and he will say that’s not a definition because it doesn’t include WHO made the decisions you made. (As a calvinist of course he believes God is manipulating those decisions and wants you to go there.) His fine print is you think you have free will but God is manipulating emotions. So you can define it but unless you include God is manipulating (which isn’t free) then he will accuse you of not answering the question.

In any post, he will toss in endless scriptures that usually don’t address the matter. It’s called Gish. If you try to answer the scripture explaining what the author really meant he will accuse you of using no scripture. Pretty clever. He counts who cites more verses to win.

Then there are the piles of scriptures where God chose a man, like Gideon, and say that proves God chooses people for their personal salvation.

The “you don’t define free will” and “you don’t cite scripture” sentences are his main personal attacks which are very mild as compared to other Calvinists. He is the kindest of the bunch, I must say. He is also fairly professional and intelligent which is refreshing.

So good luck. We will watch if he changes his strategy with you now that I’ve exposed his main battle plan.

 

[Cooper]

Marci
Welcome to the Forum! wondering and I have discussed with Fastfredy0 this at length. His strategy is this.

First he will ask you to define free will. You will do so and he will say that’s not a definition because it doesn’t include WHO made the decisions you made. (As a calvinist of course he believes God is manipulating those decisions and wants you to go there.) His fine print is you think you have free will but God is manipulating emotions. So you can define it but unless you include God is manipulating (which isn’t free) then he will accuse you of not answering the question.

In any post, he will toss in endless scriptures that usually don’t address the matter. It’s called Gish. If you try to answer the scripture explaining what the author really meant he will accuse you of using no scripture. Pretty clever. He counts who cites more verses to win.

Then there are the piles of scriptures where God chose a man, like Gideon, and say that proves God chooses people for their personal salvation.

The “you don’t define free will” and “you don’t cite scripture” sentences are his main personal attacks which are very mild as compared to other Calvinists. He is the kindest of the bunch, I must say. He is also fairly professional and intelligent which is refreshing.

So good luck. We will watch if he changes his strategy with you now that I’ve exposed his main battle plan.

Who manipulated Adam and Eve?

What would Fastfredy say?

Was it not free will choice?
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Who manipulated Adam and Eve?

What would Fastfredy say?

Was it not free will choice?
.

I’m with you. They didn’t have a sin nature either.

 

[Fastfredy0]

First he will ask you to define free will. You will do so and he will say that’s not a definition because it doesn’t include WHO made the decisions you made.

Agreed. Logically, in order to speak on a subject in depth one must give meaning to the terms they are using. Obviously, free will is a choice and this is the limited definition I get from almost everyone. They fail to define the "FREE" aspect of their definition. FREE FROM WHOM?? The ultimate cause of all things is GOD (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) so to make choices that are FREE one must do so FREE from God's influence. The verses I just quote show this is not possible.
Note: To not define what you are talking about is to suggest you don't know what you are talking about.

As a calvinist of course he believes God is manipulating those decisions and wants you to go there.) His fine print is you think you have free will but God is manipulating emotions.

Aside: I wouldn't use the ad hominem "manipulate" (to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage) as God is not unfair or insidious. Interesting tactic, anyways
I believe God controls our desires. It is metaphysically impossible to be self-existent and self-sustaining
Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36

hen he will accuse you of not answering the question

Agreed, if you don't answer the question: "what is FREE WILL", I will accuse you of not answering the question.
It is idiotic to discuss something in any detail if there is not a common understanding of terms. Saying FREE WILL is the ability to choice neglects to define what you mean by FREE.

In any post, he will toss in endless scriptures that usually don’t address the matter.

Imagine using God as a witness to support one's idea. Seems like a great tactic. I often asked you to do the same.
I disagree as to your characterization that my verses are irrelevant. You could be right or you bias won't allow you to consider facts beyond the conclusions you drew long ago.

Then there are the piles of scriptures where God chose a man, like Gideon, and say that proves God chooses people for their personal salvation.

Agreed. I would say that is evidence to show FREE WILL is imagery, but you refuse to define FREE WILL comprehensively. Still looking for you to show non anthropomorphic verses where anyone did anything that God didn't cause but that is not possible per the verses above.

The “you don’t define free will” and “you don’t cite scripture” sentences are his main personal attacks

Personal attacks? How is that a "personal attack"? The internet defines personal attack as "Making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."
Anyways .... not wanting to define what you are talking about and not giving scripture to support your theology seems to be overwhelming evidence that your argumentation is very weak.

We will watch if he changes his strategy with you now that I’ve exposed his main battle plan.

Giggles. Why would I abandon a winning strategy? Yes, you have exposes my battle plan. Actually, this identifies an initial skirmish. The battle begins when the rules are defined (you define FREE WILL comprehensively) and then I will attack based on scripture and logic.

Aside: Your battle plan is to avoid scripture and not define what you are talking about. This is a "live to fight another day" strategy.

Additional comment:
God is exerting power over you at all times is a necessary consequence of your existence as a finite created thing since Hebrews 1:3 is true. Since God is always exerting power and upholding your existence it is a necessary consequence that he is exerting power of you at all times and is in control of you at all times. It is not a switch that is flipped on and off sometimes he's controlling you sometimes he's not, sometimes he's exerting power of you sometimes he's not. He is always in control. He is always exerting power from start to finish. It can't be any other way. Thus, it is impossible for God to give you free will. God can choose to do stop exerting His power, but then you will cease to exist.

Aside: Thanks for always being polite.

 

[Cooper]

Agreed. Logically, in order to speak on a subject in depth one must give meaning to the terms they are using. Obviously, free will is a choice and this is the limited definition I get from almost everyone. They fail to define the "FREE" aspect of their definition. FREE FROM WHOM?? The ultimate cause of all things is GOD (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) so to make choices that are FREE one must do so FREE from God's influence. The verses I just quote show this is not possible.
Note: To not define what you are talking about is to suggest you don't know what you are talking about.



Aside: I wouldn't use the ad hominem "manipulate" (to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage) as God is not unfair or insidious. Interesting tactic, anyways
I believe God controls our desires. It is metaphysically impossible to be self-existent and self-sustaining
Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36

Agreed, if you don't answer the question: "what is FREE WILL", I will accuse you of not answering the question.
It is idiotic to discuss something in any detail if there is not a common understanding of terms. Saying FREE WILL is the ability to choice neglects to define what you mean by FREE.



Imagine using God as a witness to support one's idea. Seems like a great tactic. I often asked you to do the same.
I disagree as to your characterization that my verses are irrelevant. You could be right or you bias won't allow you to consider facts beyond the conclusions you drew long ago.



Agreed. I would say that is evidence to show FREE WILL is imagery, but you refuse to define FREE WILL comprehensively. Still looking for you to show non anthropomorphic verses where anyone did anything that God didn't cause but that is not possible per the verses above.



Personal attacks? How is that a "personal attack"? The internet defines personal attack as "Making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."
Anyways .... not wanting to define what you are talking about and not giving scripture to support your theology seems to be overwhelming evidence that your argumentation is very weak.



Giggles. Why would I abandon a winning strategy? Yes, you have exposes my battle plan. Actually, this identifies an initial skirmish. The battle begins when the rules are defined (you define FREE WILL comprehensively) and then I will attack based on scripture and logic.

Aside: Your battle plan is to avoid scripture and not define what you are talking about. This is a "live to fight another day" strategy.

Additional comment:
God is exerting power over you at all times is a necessary consequence of your existence as a finite created thing since Hebrews 1:3 is true. Since God is always exerting power and upholding your existence it is a necessary consequence that he is exerting power of you at all times and is in control of you at all times. It is not a switch that is flipped on and off sometimes he's controlling you sometimes he's not, sometimes he's exerting power of you sometimes he's not. He is always in control. He is always exerting power from start to finish. It can't be any other way. Thus, it is impossible for God to give you free will. God can choose to do stop exerting His power, but then you will cease to exist.

Aside: Thanks for always being polite.

Free
"Able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another."
.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Free
"Able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another."

Thank you. It is a rarity to have someone give a full definition; someone to give meaning to FREE in the term FREE WILL.
To the others: Now, that wasn't so hard. Took him a minute. *giggle*

Aside: My definition is: the ability to choose according to your greatest desire at that time.
So our definitions are in sync save I think our desires can be modified by others and you do not.

Thus, I stress the need to define terms. Cooper defines FREE WILL one way and I another. It is not until we have a mutual understanding on what definition is that we can a conversation have meaning.

Again, TY Copper.

 

[Cooper]

Thank you. It is a rarity to have someone give a full definition; someone to give meaning to FREE in the term FREE WILL.
To the others: Now, that wasn't so hard. Took him a minute. *giggle*

Aside: My definition is: the ability to choose according to your greatest desire at that time.
So our definitions are in sync save I think our desires can be modified by others and you do not.

Thus, I stress the need to define terms. Cooper defines FREE WILL one way and I another. It is not until we have a mutual understanding on what definition is that we can a conversation have meaning.

Again, TY Copper.

Free
"Able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another."
.

All the way through the Bible, we see people exercising free will. Jesus spent his entire ministry persuading people.
.

 

[Niblo]

Thank you. It is a rarity to have someone give a full definition; someone to give meaning to FREE in the term FREE WILL.
To the others: Now, that wasn't so hard. Took him a minute. *giggle*

Aside: My definition is: the ability to choose according to your greatest desire at that time.
So our definitions are in sync save I think our desires can be modified by others and you do not.

Thus, I stress the need to define terms. Cooper defines FREE WILL one way and I another. It is not until we have a mutual understanding on what definition is that we can a conversation have meaning.

Again, TY Copper.

How about:

The ability to choose according to our greatest desire at that moment, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed. Logically, in order to speak on a subject in depth one must give meaning to the terms they are using. Obviously, free will is a choice and this is the limited definition I get from almost everyone. They fail to define the "FREE" aspect of their definition. FREE FROM WHOM?? The ultimate cause of all things is GOD (Acts 17:28, Col. 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:3) so to make choices that are FREE one must do so FREE from God's influence. The verses I just quote show this is not possible.
Note: To not define what you are talking about is to suggest you don't know what you are talking about.

We define it over and over again. You don’t like it. If we define what “book” means, the name of the author isn’t included. If we define “fire” who started it isn’t included. You demand a someone to be included that is not a part of what a definition is.

Aside: I wouldn't use the ad hominem "manipulate" (to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage) as God is not unfair or insidious. Interesting tactic, anyways
I believe God controls our desires. It is metaphysically impossible to be self-existent and self-sustaining
Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36

“God gave them over to their desires”…He didn't control them. Ps 37:4 tells us that if we fulfill conditions he will give us what we desire or the desires of our heart but ONLY if we fulfill the conditions. Your scriptures donor promises He is putting evil desires in man as you believe.

Agreed, if you don't answer the question: "what is FREE WILL", I will accuse you of not answering the question.

We answer it according to standard definition protocol. You refuse all but your personal understanding and call us not answering. That is an ad hominem, btw.

It is idiotic to discuss something in any detail if there is not a common understanding of terms. Saying FREE WILL is the ability to choice neglects to define what you mean by FREE.



Imagine using God as a witness to support one's idea. Seems like a great tactic. I often asked you to do the same.
I disagree as to your characterization that my verses are irrelevant. You could be right or you bias won't allow you to consider facts beyond the conclusions you drew long ago.

Discussed this already.

Agreed. I would say that is evidence to show FREE WILL is imagery, but you refuse to define FREE WILL comprehensively. Still looking for you to show non anthropomorphic verses where anyone did anything that God didn't cause but that is not possible per the verses above.

Discussed this already.

Personal attacks? How is that a "personal attack"?

Accusing us of refusing to do what we did ad nauseum.

The internet defines personal attack as "Making of an abusive remark on or relating to one's person instead of providing evidence when examining another person's claims or comments."

Telling us we refuse is against the person. You can disagree with what is stated but you attack the person instead.

Anyways .... not wanting to define what you are talking about and not giving scripture to support your theology seems to be overwhelming evidence that your argumentation is very weak.



Giggles. Why would I abandon a winning strategy? Yes, you have exposes my battle plan. Actually, this identifies an initial skirmish. The battle begins when the rules are defined (you define FREE WILL comprehensively) and then I will attack based on scripture and logic.

Aside: Your battle plan is to avoid scripture and not define what you are talking about. This is a "live to fight another day" strategy.

Additional comment:
God is exerting power over you at all times is a necessary consequence of your existence as a finite created thing since Hebrews 1:3 is true. Since God is always exerting power and upholding your existence it is a necessary consequence that he is exerting power of you at all times and is in control of you at all times. It is not a switch that is flipped on and off sometimes he's controlling you sometimes he's not, sometimes he's exerting power of you sometimes he's not. He is always in control. He is always exerting power from start to finish. It can't be any other way. Thus, it is impossible for God to give you free will. God can choose to do stop exerting His power, but then you will cease to exist.

Aside: Thanks for always being polite.

I gave the poster what to expect. As I said you’re the best of the lot but you have borrowed arguments and cannot deviate which is how I know they are borrowed. A man who has thought through his position can provide a variety of responses. The stubborn repetitive response shows it’s learned from elsewhere. You cannot even acknowledge a standard definition but simply deny it was said. You learned this from someone else.

 

[Fastfredy0]

All the way through the Bible, we see people exercising free will. Jesus spent his entire ministry persuading people.
.

Agreed. They were persuaded. This fits both our definitions of FREE WILL.
How were they persuaded. Who or what caused them to change their minds? Give biblical scripture to affirm your answer.
I say God caused them to believe (and can give many, many verses to back it up like John 6:29) .... you say they caused themselves to be persuaded. Give verses where it says anything about you doing so independent of God's control.

Free
"Able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another."

Your definition of FREE WILL

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed. They were persuaded. This fits both our definitions of FREE WILL.
How were they persuaded. Who or what caused them to change their minds?

Then by definition there will isn’t free. That’s your position, not the rest of the world.

Give biblical scripture to affirm your answer.

Here we go again. Cooper, he demands “God gave free will”or theres no showing He did. “You CHOOSE this day whom you will serve” is insufficient.

I say God caused them to believe (and can give many, many verses to back it up like John 6:29) .... you say they caused themselves to be persuaded. Give verses where it says anything about you doing so independent of God's control.

No you can’t. You just quote verses and add up the number that say nothing of the kind. That verse doesn’t say “God forced them to choose what He wanted” so it didn’t occur.

Your definition of FREE WILL

Here we go again. Cooper, he says that to everyone. These are not his own arguments but memorized so there can be no reasoning.

 

[Fastfredy0]

The ability to choose according to our greatest desire at that moment, having regard to circumstance, consequence, and the influence of others?

That definition works for me. Sounds the same as my definition save you gave examples of things that would influence your desires which works for me too.

Aside: Gee, I am not accustomed to people actually giving a definition. Like pulling teeth most of the time>

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That definition works for me. Sounds the same as my definition save you gave examples of things that would influence your desires which works for me too.

Aside: Gee, I am not accustomed to people actually giving a definition. Like pulling teeth most of the time>

For the man driven by his desires, that works. For the ones not controlled by their desires, it doesn't work. But from experience I know that those who are controlled by their desires, they cannot imagine anyone else having a different basis.

It’s like those who think everyone decides what they want to believe because they do and cannot conceive of those who want truth and aren’t satisfied with less.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We define it over and over again. You don’t like it. If we define what “book” means, the name of the author isn’t included. If we define “fire” who started it isn’t included. You demand a someone to be included that is not a part of what a definition is.

Bad analogy. It not "FIRE" that the definition is asked for.... it's BIG FIRE. You have to define BIG as part of using the term BIG Fire. *sigh* ... we have a communication problem. Two guys on this thread answered quickly. You taken days and days and still your definition is insufficient. I pretty well given up. I am sure you think you did it. Oh well.

We are at an impasse. Sorry

 

[Niblo]

That definition works for me. Sounds the same as my definition save you gave examples of things that would influence your desires which works for me too.

Aside: Gee, I am not accustomed to people actually giving a definition. Like pulling teeth most of the time>

I had no hesitation in stealing your definition. I'm 77 years old, and have a great desire to see this conversation move on, before I kick the bucket.

Proceed............pleeeeeeeease.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Bad analogy. It not "FIRE" that the definition is asked for.... it's BIG FIRE. You have to define BIG as part of using the term BIG Fire. *sigh* ... we have a communication problem. Two guys on this thread answered quickly. You taken days and days and still your definition is insufficient. I pretty well given up. I am sure you think you did it. Oh well.

We are at an impasse. Sorry

It’s a perfect example. Defining a “murder” won’t tell you who did it. Defining “war” won’t tell
you who started it. Definitions of nouns do not include the particular parties involved. They just don’t.

But I agree. We have reached the end. I just feel I need to warn others as you use the exact same arguments which tell me that you memorized them. You didn’t come up with them.

All of my arguments I thought of.
I have no need to borrow material from others. I actual can then THINK about the other side and not just ignore it. It’s a great strength.