Free Will

[Fastfredy0]

I had no hesitation in stealing your definition. I'm 77 years old, and have a great desire to see this conversation move, before I kick the bucket.

LOL at kick the bucket. Aside: I think it is God that kicks the bucket... giggle .. you're just a bucket. *smile*

Well, our mutually agreed to definition again is: Free will is the ability to chose what we desire greatest. (aside: it's Augustine's definition)
Well, logically the next question is: Who/what ultimately determines your greatest desire and how can we answer that question. I say the ultimate source of truth is scripture and therefore that should be our authority guiding us to truth.
Do you agree?

 

[Fastfredy0]

But I agree. We have reached the end. I just feel I need to warn others as you use the exact same arguments which tell me that you memorized them. You didn’t come up with them.

I contemplated answers based on research of experts comparing their opinion to one another and scripture. I grant I did not come up with (did not author) scripture.
My arguments tend to be the same arguments as I like to be consistent. Unlike you, I will refer to scripture to support my arguments as well as logic.

All of my arguments I thought of.

I'm sure they are. Communication is not possible without thinking.

I have no need to borrow material from others. I actual can then THINK about the other side and not just ignore it. It’s a great strength.

Thus your avoidance of scripture and hundreds of 1000s of hours study of men to comprehensively put together scripture into a coherent, non contradictory whole. Your method does not take Solomon's Proverbs 15:22 recommendation as sound advice.

 

[Niblo]

LOL at kick the bucket. Aside: I think it is God that kicks the bucket... giggle .. you're just a bucket. *smile*

Well, our mutually agreed to definition again is: Free will is the ability to chose what we desire greatest. (aside: it's Augustine's definition)
Well, logically the next question is: Who/what ultimately determines your greatest desire and how can we answer that question. I say the ultimate source of truth is scripture and therefore that should be our authority guiding us to truth.
Do you agree?

Who, or what, ultimately determines my greatest desire?

Me....that is why I am solely responsible for my actions; and will answer for them on the Day.

Scripture is indeed the ultimate source of truth. Unfortunately, folk tend to rely, often solely, on *their* particular interpretation of Scripture.

That is why two individuals can read the very same Scripture....word for word.....and hold - in all honesty - widely different beliefs. Trinitarians and Unitarians, for example; or folk who teach - in all sincerity - that the Beloved has selected...from before creation...those destined for Heaven, and those for Hell; and folk who teach - in all sincerity - that this is nonsense.

How do you account for this?

 

[Cooper]

It is because we have free will, that we have the commandments, otherwise they would not be needed, and what did they do? They exercised their free will and broke them.
.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Who, or what, ultimately determines my greatest desire?

Me....that is why I am solely responsible for my actions.

OK, that is your position... prove it with scripture. I say use scripture as that is the ultimate authority and I assume we both agree to that. Concerning our discussion, I say God all determines your desires and you say you do.
Now, neither of us can easily prove why you went to the toilet (add some levity) when you did using scripture. Instead, let's pick a biggy that there is much scripture to be found if that's OK with you. Who determined your desire to believe in God. Who determined your 'saving faith'?
Can we go there next? Keep in mind, we both agree you have a choice. That crux of the matter now is: Who determined what your choose?
I have to go to lunch and wife giving me a haircut shortly (no pun intended)


Aside: The definition of RESPONSIBLE in the dictionary is:

• Liable to be required to give account, as of one's actions or of the discharge of a duty or trust.
• Required to render account; answerable.

Thus you are responsible merely because God says so. So, if God wanted to He could command you to speak in Italian for one minute or go to hell and you would be held responsible.

 

[Cooper]

Agreed. They were persuaded. This fits both our definitions of FREE WILL.
How were they persuaded. Who or what caused them to change their minds? Give biblical scripture to affirm your answer.
I say God caused them to believe (and can give many, many verses to back it up like John 6:29) .... you say they caused themselves to be persuaded. Give verses where it says anything about you doing so independent of God's control.


Your definition of FREE WILL

Many were not persuaded by the teaching of Jesus, so they exercised their free will and crucified him.

Talk about disobedience, they were full of it, and they exercised their free will.
.

 

[GodsGrace]

Thank you. It is a rarity to have someone give a full definition; someone to give meaning to FREE in the term FREE WILL.
To the others: Now, that wasn't so hard. Took him a minute. *giggle*

Aside: My definition is: the ability to choose according to your greatest desire at that time.
So our definitions are in sync save I think our desires can be modified by others and you do not.

Thus, I stress the need to define terms. Cooper defines FREE WILL one way and I another. It is not until we have a mutual understanding on what definition is that we can a conversation have meaning.

Again, TY Copper.

WHAT CAUSES your greatest desire at the time?
No reply necessary.

So you like this definition by Free
"Able to act or be done as one wishes; not under the control of another."


Actually that definition is not correct.
I wish to fly.
But, alas, I cannot.

I wish all the hungry people in the world could be fed.
But, alas, they cannot.

And, going by the definition I gave you many months ago wherein I stated
WITH NO OUTSIDE COERCION

I see now that you don't understand what that means since you accept
UNDER THE CONTROL OF ANOTHER.

No reply necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL at kick the bucket. Aside: I think it is God that kicks the bucket... giggle .. you're just a bucket. *smile*

Well, our mutually agreed to definition again is: Free will is the ability to chose what we desire greatest. (aside: it's Augustine's definition)
Well, logically the next question is: Who/what ultimately determines your greatest desire and how can we answer that question. I say the ultimate source of truth is scripture and therefore that should be our authority guiding us to truth.
Do you agree?

Well, actually FF,
You and at Niblo do not agree at all.
But be happy.

And Augustine,,,The Gnostic.
You're following a gnostic religion...
Here's the proof.

 

[Niblo]

Fastfredy0

You write:

‘Thus you are responsible merely because God says so.’

Merely! Who has a greater right that He to lay this responsibility on me?

In a different thread I posted these words, taken from Ezekiel Chapter 18:21-32 (my emphases),:

‘But if the wicked man renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and honest, he will certainly live; he will not die. All the sins he committed will be forgotten from then on; he shall live because of the integrity he has practiced. What! Am I likely to take pleasure in the death of a wicked man – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?

‘But if the upright man renounces his integrity, commits sin, copies the wicked man and practices every kind of filth, is he to live? All the integrity he has practiced shall be forgotten from then on; but this is because he himself has broken faith and committed sin, and for this he shall die. ·

‘But you object, 'What the Lord does is unjust.'

‘Listen, you House of Israel: is what I do unjust? Is it not what you do that is unjust? ·

‘When the upright man renounces his integrity to commit sin and dies because of this, he dies because of the evil that he himself has committed.

‘When the sinner renounces sin to become law-abiding and honest, he deserves to live. He has chosen to renounce all his previous sins; he shall certainly live; he shall not die. ·

‘And yet the House of Israel objects, 'What the Lord does is unjust.'

‘Is what I do unjust, you House of Israel? Is it not what you do that is unjust? ·

‘House of Israel, in future I mean to judge each of you by what he does – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.

‘Repent, renounce all your sins, avoid all occasions of sin! Shake off all the sins you have committed against me, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why are you so anxious to die, House of Israel?

‘I take no pleasure in the death of anyone – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks.’

‘Repent and live!’ (Jerusalem Bible’).

The message appears abundantly clear: We are each of us responsible for our actions:

‘When the upright man renounces his integrity to commit sin and dies because of this, he dies because of the evil that he himself has committed.’

‘When the sinner renounces sin to become law-abiding and honest, he deserves to live. He has chosen to renounce all his previous sins; he shall certainly live; he shall not die.’

The fact that the Beloved requires us to behave in a certain way – to avoid sin – makes sense only if we are free to comply; free to exercise our desire to please Him.

The Sufi mystic, Rabia of Basra, said this:

‘O my Lord! If I worship Thee on account of the fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship Thee with the hope of Paradise, exclude me from it, but if I worship Thee for Thine own sake, then withhold not from me Thine Eternal Beauty.’

She was on the right track. Everything we do – freely and willingly – should be done for His own sake; and for no other reason. He desires that we should live. Each and every one of us. That is why He has made Himself known; through His Messengers.

‘I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, in the love of Yahweh your God, obeying his voice, clinging to him; for in this your life consists…’ (Deuteronomy 30:19-20 – Jerusalem Bible).

I choose life.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I contemplated answers based on research of experts comparing their opinion to one another and scripture.

IOW, you borrowed arguments because you couldn’t think of any yourself. I like you but they felt canned.

I grant I did not come up with (did not author) scripture.

Neither did I but they all occurred to me. I didn’t just quote what others decided to use based on their prechosen theology.

My arguments tend to be the same arguments as I like to be consistent.

Giggle. Those are the only ones you got and they don’t persuade. If one thinks, they don’t hold water.

Unlike you, I will refer to scripture to support my arguments as well as logic.

No, you just site references without any thought. Thought easily leads to questioning the application.

I'm sure they are. Communication is not possible without thinking.

It sure is. It’s called memorizing.

Thus your avoidance of scripture and hundreds of 1000s of hours study of men to comprehensively put together scripture into a coherent, non contradictory whole.

Borrowed info. That’s why you cannot defend it. You just borrow it whole.

Your method does not take Solomon's Proverbs 15:22 recommendation as sound advice.

Sigh! The ad hominem. Moving on except to warn others of your canned arguments.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Merely! Who has a greater right that He to lay this responsibility on me?

Agreed, No one.
Merely definition: And nothing else or more; only. Purely; unmixedly; absolutely.

‘But if the wicked man renounces all the sins he has committed, respects my laws and is law-abiding and honest, he will certainly live; he will not die. All the sins he committed will be forgotten from then on; he shall live because of the integrity he has practiced. What! Am I likely to take pleasure in the death of a wicked man – it is the Lord Yahweh who speaks – and not prefer to see him renounce his wickedness and live?

I agree. Where in the verse does it say man's "renounces sin" or "respects God's law" is cause by the man and not God. Your bias is to inserts FREE WILL (man determines his desires) into the verse. I can insert "because God has changed the mans desires". The metaphysical reason for the person desires has not been revealed in the verse.
Example:
My understanding; "But if [God changes the desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...
Your understanding; "But if [the wicked man self-determines to change his desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...
the underlying reason as demonstrated in blue is being assumed.

Same response to your second scripture. Your bias causes you to assume FREE WILL (what you desire most) is caused by man and the verse does not give the cause.

‘But you object, 'What the Lord does is unjust.'

Aside: I will speak for myself. God is just. You didn't tie this into the question at hand ... who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.

‘When the upright man renounces his integrity to commit sin and dies because of this, he dies because of the evil that he himself has committed.

‘When the sinner renounces sin to become law-abiding and honest, he deserves to live. He has chosen to renounce all his previous sins; he shall certainly live; he shall not die. ·

I agree. He has a choice, but is it FREE? Again, you avoid the question at hand. You refer to the CHOICE part of the definition of FREE WILL but skip the FREE part of the definition: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.

The fact that the Beloved requires us to behave in a certain way – to avoid sin – makes sense only if we are free to comply; free to exercise our desire to please Him.

Agreed. I say we freely comply too. I say it is because God changed our desires and you say you changed your desire independent of God. Again, get to the crux of the discussion: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.

‘I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, in the love of Yahweh your God, obeying his voice, clinging to him; for in this your life consists…’ (Deuteronomy 30:19-20 – Jerusalem Bible).

I choose life.

We both agree you 'choose life'. Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.
You avoid the crux of the question. There lots of verses where God says to chose. Those verses don't tell you why you choose.

My turn to give verses that that you WHY YOU CHOSE, WHO CAUSES YOUR GREATEST DESIRE TO CHANGE.
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
From Verse 12 we know God is speaking about salvation (becoming children of God, those who believe).
Verse 13 say that salvation is by "the will of GOD", then to stress the matter further the verse repeats several time that we are not saved by the "will of man". Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God? These verse answer the question at hand.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Again, the verse is about saving faith. The verse says it's a work and the person doing the work is God. Note: The bible says you are not saved by our works and the verse identifies belief as a work, therefore it can't be the work of man.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
Plainly the verse says the flesh is on no benefit. Therefore we cannot come to God by our will, our fleshly desire. Verse 65 says God must GRANT this.

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. Again, faith relies on God's power and not your wisdom. I assume uou say your wisdom caused you to believe, contrary to the verse.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. Contrarily, “free will” claims ones ability to believe is free from the influence of the Spirit.

Like, I can ream off 50 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our depravity.
Like, I can ream off 40 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our chosen by God.
Like, I can ream off 10 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our God's desire that we have nothing to boast of
... and a lot more

 

[Fastfredy0]

Many were not persuaded by the teaching of Jesus, so they exercised their free will and crucified him.

Talk about disobedience, they were full of it, and they exercised their free will.

Because of Adam's Free Will everyone's will was corrupted (depravity)

Premise 1: Adam sin imputed to mankind (Romans 5:12)
Conclusion: Mankind doesn't have freewill

.... if you truly have Free Will, then why did you chose to sin so often?

Note: I used scripture and you did not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Agreed, No one.
Merely definition: And nothing else or more; only. Purely; unmixedly; absolutely.


I agree. Where in the verse does it say man's "renounces sin" or "respects God's law" is cause by the man and not God. Your bias is to inserts FREE WILL (man determines his desires) into the verse. I can insert "because God has changed the mans desires". The metaphysical reason for the person desires has not been revealed in the verse.
Example:
My understanding; "But if [God changes the desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...
Your understanding; "But if [the wicked man self-determines to change his desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...
the underlying reason as demonstrated in blue is being assumed.

Same response to your second scripture. Your bias causes you to assume FREE WILL (what you desire most) is caused by man and the verse does not give the cause.



Aside: I will speak for myself. God is just. You didn't tie this into the question at hand ... who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.


I agree. He has a choice, but is it FREE? Again, you avoid the question at hand. You refer to the CHOICE part of the definition of FREE WILL but skip the FREE part of the definition: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.



Agreed. I say we freely comply too. I say it is because God changed our desires and you say you changed your desire independent of God. Again, get to the crux of the discussion: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.


We both agree you 'choose life'. Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.
You avoid the crux of the question. There lots of verses where God says to chose. Those verses don't tell you why you choose.

My turn to give verses that that you WHY YOU CHOSE, WHO CAUSES YOUR GREATEST DESIRE TO CHANGE.
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
From Verse 12 we know God is speaking about salvation (becoming children of God, those who believe).
Verse 13 say that salvation is by "the will of GOD", then to stress the matter further the verse repeats several time that we are not saved by the "will of man". Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God? These verse answer the question at hand.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Again, the verse is about saving faith. The verse says it's a work and the person doing the work is God. Note: The bible says you are not saved by our works and the verse identifies belief as a work, therefore it can't be the work of man.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
Plainly the verse says the flesh is on no benefit. Therefore we cannot come to God by our will, our fleshly desire. Verse 65 says God must GRANT this.

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. Again, faith relies on God's power and not your wisdom. I assume uou say your wisdom caused you to believe, contrary to the verse.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. Contrarily, “free will” claims ones ability to believe is free from the influence of the Spirit.

Like, I can ream off 50 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our depravity.
Like, I can ream off 40 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our chosen by God.
Like, I can ream off 10 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our God's desire that we have nothing to boast of
... and a lot more

Aside: Don't worry about wondering .... she likes to follow/troll me. You will notice she seldom quotes scripture and wisely asks that I don't respond.

Too bad the verses don't mean what you THINK they do...
You kind of have a way of twisting them to mean what you want them to mean.

And your second paragraph...
right.
It's kind of like with
John 3:16
The rest of Christianity understands that it's PRESCRIPTIVE,,,
but you want to say it's DESCRIPTIVE.

So you just claim that every passage that is prescriptive is actually descriptive, and, voila,
there you have it....

Too bad that's not what they mean.

 

[GodsGrace]

IT IS INAPPROPRIATE TO CALL A MEMBER IN GOOD STANDING A TROLL,
OR ANY OTHER DEROGATORY NAME.

PLEASE REFRAIN FROM UNPLEASANT ATTITUDES THAT DISRUPT NORMAL
CONVERSATION IN A THREAD.

A 3 DAY REMOVAL FROM THIS THREAD WILL TAKE PLACE IF THE ABOVE OCCURS.
PLEASE FOLLOW FORUM RULES - TO WHICH YOU AGREED UPON JOINING.

 

[electedbyHim]

Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind.

 

[Cooper]

Because of Adam's Free Will everyone's will was corrupted (depravity)

Premise 1: Adam sin imputed to mankind (Romans 5:12)
Conclusion: Mankind doesn't have freewill

.... if you truly have Free Will, then why did you chose to sin so often?

Note: I used scripture and you did not.

Romans 5:12 posted by you, clearly tells us we have Adam's free will.

Your conclusion is upside down, inside out, and totally wrong.
.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Agreed, No one.
Merely definition: And nothing else or more; only. Purely; unmixedly; absolutely.


I agree. Where in the verse does it say man's "renounces sin" or "respects God's law" is cause by the man and not God.

Where does it say it is caused by God and why doesn’t He do so to all men and the world would be better?

Your bias is to inserts FREE WILL (man determines his desires) into the verse.

No, man determines his ACTIONS and we all know it and hold men responsible for their actions.

I can insert "because God has changed the mans desires". The metaphysical reason for the person desires has not been revealed in the verse.

Except God doesnt do that. Please give a verse where God says he sovereignty makes a man desire evil.

Example:
My understanding; "But if [God changes the desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...
Your understanding; "But if [the wicked man self-determines to change his desires causing] the wicked man to renounce sin ...

Wrong!! The wicked changes his mind not his desires. Your view is way too hedonistic.

the underlying reason as demonstrated in blue is being assumed.

Same response to your second scripture. Your bias causes you to assume FREE WILL (what you desire most) is caused by man and the verse does not give the cause.

Your bias will cause you to
ignore that choice is real.

Aside: I will speak for myself. God is just. You didn't tie this into the question at hand ... who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.

Because the obvious answer us you do.

I agree. He has a choice, but is it FREE?

yes

Again, you avoid the question at hand. You refer to the CHOICE part of the definition of FREE WILL but skip the FREE part of the definition: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.

Only you require who is behind a choice or it’s not a definition. You’d best avoid trying to
define words as I will apply your standard to your definition. Always include WHO does the action or it’s out.

Agreed. I say we freely comply too. I say it is because God changed our desires and you say you changed your desire independent of God.

He needs to change your desire away from Calvinism.

Again, get to the crux of the discussion: who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.


We both agree you 'choose life'. Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God.
You avoid the crux of the question. There lots of verses where God says to chose. Those verses don't tell you why you choose.

My turn to give verses that that you WHY YOU CHOSE, WHO CAUSES YOUR GREATEST DESIRE TO CHANGE.
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified].
From Verse 12 we know God is speaking about salvation (becoming children of God, those who believe).
Verse 13 say that salvation is by "the will of GOD", then to stress the matter further the verse repeats several time that we are not saved by the "will of man". Who determines your will in regard to salvation... yourself or God? These verse answer the question at hand.

John 6:29 Jesus answered, “This is the work of God: that you believe [adhere to, trust in, rely on, and have faith] in the One whom He has sent.” Again, the verse is about saving faith. The verse says it's a work and the person doing the work is God. Note: The bible says you are not saved by our works and the verse identifies belief as a work, therefore it can't be the work of man.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh conveys no benefit [it is of no account]. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life [providing eternal life]… 65 And He was saying, “This is the reason why I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him [that is, unless he is enabled to do so] by the Father.”
Plainly the verse says the flesh is on no benefit. Therefore we cannot come to God by our will, our fleshly desire. Verse 65 says God must GRANT this.

1 Corinthians 2:5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. Again, faith relies on God's power and not your wisdom. I assume uou say your wisdom caused you to believe, contrary to the verse.

1 Corinthians 12:3b And no one can [really] say, Jesus is [my] Lord, except by and under the power and influence of the Holy Spirit. [The confession of the Lordship of Christ in saving faith is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Tom Constable: no one would sincerely acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, Savior and or Sovereign, unless the Holy Spirit had some influence over him or her. Contrarily, “free will” claims ones ability to believe is free from the influence of the Spirit.

Like, I can ream off 50 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our depravity.
Like, I can ream off 40 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our chosen by God.
Like, I can ream off 10 verses saying we can't come to God via our self-determined will due to our God's desire that we have nothing to boast of
... and a lot more

Enough for now. I’m here to help others not be bamboozled by you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Niblo, I would suggest that you not buy into FF hedonistic explanation of why we make the choices we do. He says we always follow our desires. That is hedonism by definition. When a man has two equal desires at a moment of choosing, the desires cannot choose anymore than two equally stubborn people can decide an outcome. A third outside party decides. And in man, this is the will.

When a man strongly desires to do wrong but chooses right, his will prevailed. Choose this day whom you will serve is not an appeal to choose whom you will desire. It is an appeal to the will. One day we must answer for what we chose, not what we desired.

Now, this is not minor because hedonists very much want to reduce all choices to being the result of desire. This can be cleverly done as the will bends towards one desire, it’s true, but it’s not the stronger or will wouldn’t be necessary. Desire is a weaker motivator unless a man has let it become the master in his life, the classic hedonist. The man whom God is pleased with trains his will to be the master, not his desire. Desire or flesh is weak and cannot help a man do the will of God. But the human will can. I’m not saying unaided, but it isn’t the desire that God strengthens but the will. Don’t be fooled by hedonists who want all choices to be the result of desire because their desires steer their choices.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

LOL at kick the bucket. Aside: I think it is God that kicks the bucket... giggle .. you're just a bucket. *smile*

Well, our mutually agreed to definition again is: Free will is the ability to chose what we desire greatest. (aside: it's Augustine's definition)
Well, logically the next question is: Who/what ultimately determines your greatest desire and how can we answer that question. I say the ultimate source of truth is scripture and therefore that should be our authority guiding us to truth.
Do you agree?

Niblo, don’t fall for this definition of the reason for choice. If you look up Augustin, you find he lived an extremely hedonistic life before becoming a monk. So he saw himself with following his desires and those desires changed but he was still trained to follow desire. So he assumed all are like him. It isn’t true. It’s true of hedonists. Those who follow their desires are unstable.

Think about this. You’re going to be in a room for 14 hours. Would you rather be with a person who followed their desire, whatever is strongest at the moment or a person whose desires are under the control of their will, that is their mind? Who would you trust, given their character is the same.

 

[Niblo]

Niblo, don’t fall for this definition of the reason for choice. If you look up Augustin, you find he lived an extremely hedonistic life before becoming a monk. So he saw himself with following his desires and those desires changed but he was still trained to follow desire. So he assumed all are like him. It isn’t true. It’s true of hedonists. Those who follow their desires are unstable.

Think about this. You’re going to be in a room for 14 hours. Would you rather be with a person who followed their desire, whatever is strongest at the moment or a person whose desires are under the control of their will, that is their mind? Who would you trust, given their character is the same.

The latter.