Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

fc



That is error, God made some people for the express purpose of condemning them for their sins Justly. This makes manifest His Grace in Saving Elect.

Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The wicked here are the vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction Rom 9:


20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now God made them in contrast to those He made vessels of mercy who are being prepared for Glory Rom 9:23

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

It was God that causeth these to differ ! 1 Cor 4:7

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Receive here in this passage means it has been Sovereignly given ! They had no choice in the matter, it was God's choice that they received it..

Like when Job said to his wife Job 2:10

But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

I see nowhere here in any of the scripture you provided where God condemns anybody. Moreover, Paul expressly says "what if " in verse 9:22 making this a supposition. While I certainly believe God has created all things including the wicked for a day of destruction, it could well be these wicked are those who condemn others and so condemn themselves. 1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

The fault is that we hypocritically find fault. After all, if we didn't find fault in one another, we wouldn't have to cover our nakedness. If we'd stop believing we make ourselves through the concept of freewill we would not judge nor condemn. So if God condemns, He condemns those who condemn themselves according to their own mouths. That's why I say that the only true freewill is one who has the knowledge of God and is set free by the Truth.

So here we see the Christ who is without sin and what does he do? He submits himself to torture at the hands of wicked men and yet says forgive them Father for they know not what they do. He does not condemn. Then we read that the condemnation is that the light was in the world but men loved the darkness and rejected the light. And because they would not receive what was good they are already condemned. The people chose Barrabas over Jesus.

 

[savedbygrace57]

child

I see nowhere here in any of the scripture you provided where God condemns anybody.

Its not about what you see..

 

[childeye]

child



Its not about what you see..

Then the grace that gives sight to the blind means nothing? We should not recognize we are blind and only in the light can we see? What is the knowledge of God about if knowledge means nothing? The eyes are the lamps of the soul.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

“FC, thanks for the response. Since sin entered into all of us through our Father Adam, we are all sinners and the law brings forth the knowledge of this. The take that I gave that God wishes to gather all up in mercy is Pauls not mine and Paul would say it's not his but Christs'. The point is God does not want to condemn anybody, but have mercy upon all. Unfortunately, there are people who do not want to believe this.â€

I agree that God doesn’t want to condemn anybody. But he did so in order that all could be saved in Christ. And in that is God’s mercy on all. It then becomes the responsibility of each individual upon revelation by God of his plan, to receive what God has given mercifully.

FC

I can agree with that although I don't understand why one after being revealed the Truth would ever go back to a lie. Regardless, that person who would do such a thing will be a slave to that lie and not free in his will, for scripture says that if you reject the Truth after coming into knowledge of it you cannot come back.

 

[Jesusdragon737]

I feel like I'm jumping straight into the middle of a conversation here, but I have some verses to share that relate to predestination, free will, Calvinism, etc. I'm not saying I totally agree with Calvinism, but some verses of the Bible definitely seem to.

Acts 4: 24-28
"Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

This verse seems to say that God had planned from the very beginning the exact actions (and sins) of these people to complete his plan.

Also, John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So it is not by our choice, but by God's, that we come to him?

 

[Elijah674]

I just read Psalms 19:13. the person asks for God to cleanse him from secret faults because we cannot understand our errors in 19:12 and then asks God to keep him from presumptuos sins or willful sins. I don't see how it is possible to apply this to a freewill choice to sin as you claim Cain did. It is stating the opposite since the man is asking God to keep him from willful sin. If the man had a freewill he would not have to ask that God keep him from willfully sinning nor would he have to ask that God cleanse him of secret faults.[/QUOTE]

I have gone over & over this. Do you know what PRESUMPTIOUS SINS ARE?? And do you know what the GREAT TRANSGRESSION is??

Just one other thought;) Does this 'original thread starter' guy always leave you to be his posting amen corner???

--Elijah

 

[Former Christian]

Savedbygrace57

“The wicked here are the vessels of wrath that are fitted for destructionâ€

Exodus 34:
5 ¶ Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD.
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, "The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Eze 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?’

Acts 26:
12 "On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests.
13 About noon, O king, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions.
14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’
15 "Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ "’I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied.
16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you.
17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them
18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

Romans 9:
14 ¶ What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"
20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’"
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath— prepared for destruction?
23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Ro 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Corinthians 4:
1 So then, men ought to regard us as servants of Christ and as those entrusted with the secret things of God.
2 Now it is required that those who have been given a trust must prove faithful.
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men’s hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.
6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.
7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?

1Timothy 2:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

2 Peter 3:
1 Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking.
2 I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3 First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires.
4 They will say, "Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation."
5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water.
6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed.
7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


All references from the NIV.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“I can agree with that although I don't understand why one after being revealed the Truth would ever go back to a lie.â€

We’re only human. If what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 3 is true, there’s lots of Christians who are in Christ in spite of themselves. They make an initially right decision to believe God, then follow men instead of God and thus walk like men. Doesn’t mean they aren’t in Christ. Just means they aren’t walking by the Spirit. Or are they like these?

2Peter 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If so, since Christianity is primarily composed of those who follow men more than God, the existence of those who are in Christ could possiblyl be a myth. But being one who still thinks that he is one who is in Christ, I choose to believe in that which may be simply a myth is not a myth. Doesn’t make it experientially true to anyone except me. But so long as I still believe it, I must proclaim its existence. And I must accept others who believe they are in Christ no matter what their doctrinal thinking may be at the moment.


“Regardless, that person who would do such a thing will be a slave to that lie and not free in his will, for scripture says that if you reject the Truth after coming into knowledge of it you cannot come back.â€

I use that very argument against those who think we can lose our salvation. I assume you’re referring to passages such as these:

1 Corinthians 6:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Hebrews 6:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jude
10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.
12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.


Used by those who think we can lose our salvation or never quite attain to it. Who think that all it takes is one mistake, and it’s all over. Some of whom actually think that one can return from such a state of non-salvation through confession, rather than Baptism.

We don’t have to worry about coming back, or any hope of ever being reconciled with God. We’re out of the game. There is no more sacrifice for such people. Because he “hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of graceâ€. So we may as well eat, drink, and be merry. For we’ll be in hell soon enough. And I use the pronoun “we†because I would have to acknowledge that I am one of them, having been guilty of that very thing more than once. Savedbygrace57 would have me believe I wasn’t saved in the first place, and have no hope of ever being saved. And his evidence is my belief in what he calls “the Freewill Religionâ€. Because some of us are created to be on the wrong side of the Law. It’s part of this game that God has going. Has nothing to do with us really, so “no offense buddyâ€, says God. “No one knows what it’s like to be the bad manâ€. Especially God, from the perspective of Savedbygrace57.

If after trusting in God to help me get to the right place, I still end up in the wrong place, I’d have every right to curse God. Not that it would have any meaning if God isn’t there to hear it. Not that it would make him suffer or feel badly even if he was there and heard. He’s the sovereign God after all, and can do whatever he likes. Even create us to curse God and all he stands for. If that’s God, he’s quite insane, and I don’t want any part of him. Now or after death. An eternal existence outside of his presence would be heaven.

Never is the context of these verses understood by those who interpret them. There is no context as far as they’re concerned. They’re just part of a string of verses that prove a point to their own satisfaction. Some can’t accept the Bible as it is. They can’t understand what it clearly says on its own. But they think they understand what Peter says,

2 Peter 3
15 ....as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

They then educate themselves in the ways of interpretation and apply it to the Bible so as to not be numbered among those who are “unlearned and unstableâ€. Becoming steadfast in their learned state, relying on the stability of their own educated minds, that ever learns the intricacies of denominational thinking, created by themselves or others, thinking that now they know the truth. But they still haven’t accepted the Bible as it is, and are never able to see the truth that is in a Bible they can’t accept.

They even create their own version of salvation achieved through their own faith or their own faith and works. Instead of acknowledging the salvation provided by God through the faith of Christ.

Thank God that when our biases and interpretations would send us to hell, God in his love and mercy, through all his Son has accomplished on behalf of humanity, strives to keep us with him. God can’t be blamed if we are determined not to accept what he has so graciously provided. Whether it be the revelation contained in the Bible, the written word of God, revealed clearly through the teaching of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Or the salvation that God has provided in Jesus Christ. Once revealed, only we can be blamed for that. Should we emphasize what we see as universal ignorance and say none should be faulted, nor condemned? When God emphasizes what he sees as a terminal genetic illness that already exists in mankind through Adam resulting in them already being condemned to an existence beyond everything in reality or even to not exist at all? When God emphasizes that he provides the medicine of immortality against that genetic illness?

Those who are in Christ are in the Body of Christ. If there is anyone who hasn’t been offered the medicine of immortality, it isn’t God’s fault. It’s the fault of those who are in Christ to whom the medicine has been given to disseminate. Such a dissemination is an obvious work that God has given those who are in Christ to walk in. A work given to those who are truly in the Body of Christ. That Body in which is the unity of Divine Life and Spirit, that is at odds with the human life and denominational thinking of a human organizational body that calls itself Christianity. The medicine of immortality is for the adherents of the man-made religion that calls itself Christianity, as much as for the adherents of any other man-made religion or philosophy.

All references from the KJV.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Are you saying, Calvinists teach that you don't have to believe in the Christ to be saved?

As if you didn't know.. lol..

Calvinists teach that God allows certain people to believe, who they call the elect..

False doctrine..

 

[childeye]

As if you didn't know.. lol..

Calvinists teach that God allows certain people to believe, who they call the elect..

False doctrine..

Eventide, I usually find it is not wise to simply believe what one's enemies say about them. Since you have a predispostion to hate Calvinists I always take what you say concerning them with a grain of salt. However you have avoided my question entirely here. "Are you saying Calvinists teach that you don't have to believe in the Christ to be saved?" Personally I wouldn't believe they are teaching that.

 

[childeye]

=Former Christian;565930]Childeye

“I can agree with that although I don't understand why one after being revealed the Truth would ever go back to a lie.”

We’re only human.

Yes we are human but that is a rather general explanation. What is sinning willingly? For Paul seperates the desires of sin in the flesh from his desire to not sin even though he is flesh. We find this in the book of Romans where he declares, that which I will to do I don't do and that which I don't will to do that I do, therefore It is not I that does it but sin that dwelleth in my members. And as we know, one act of love covers a multitude of sins.

I say this to promote mercy and understanding of others for the sake of righeous judgment. My question was meant to ponder why one would want to condemn others and want to be a sinner. Certainly I am human but I don't want to be a sinner.

 

[Eventide]

Eventide, I usually find it is not wise to simply believe what one's enemies say about them.

I agree, and thankfully we don't need to go by what their enemies say about them because many Calvinists have told me right to my face that God enables them to believe.. and yet doesn't allow this for all men.. so it's first hand information coming right from the horses mouth so to speak.. and if you have read any of SBGs comments then you can also see first hand for yourself what he teaches.

Since you have a predispostion to hate Calvinists I always take what you say concerning them with a grain of salt.

I hate EVERY false way.. not just the false doctrines of Calvinism..

However you have avoided my question entirely here. "Are you saying Calvinists teach that you don't have to believe in the Christ to be saved?" Personally I wouldn't believe they are teaching that.

I answered your question clearly, although since you side with the Calvinists, you're going to see things that way.. and that's your prerogative.

 

[Eventide]

The actual question is the BIBLICAL question..

What must I do to be saved ?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

b) Nothing

 

[childeye]

I just read Psalms 19:13. the person asks for God to cleanse him from secret faults because we cannot understand our errors in 19:12 and then asks God to keep him from presumptuos sins or willful sins. I don't see how it is possible to apply this to a freewill choice to sin as you claim Cain did. It is stating the opposite since the man is asking God to keep him from willful sin. If the man had a freewill he would not have to ask that God keep him from willfully sinning nor would he have to ask that God cleanse him of secret faults.

I have gone over & over this. Do you know what PRESUMPTIOUS SINS ARE?? And do you know what the GREAT TRANSGRESSION is??

Just one other thought;) Does this 'original thread starter' guy always leave you to be his posting amen corner???

--Elijah[/QUOTE]
I had gathered presumptuos sins are sins done willingly without any shame. What is your take? The great transgression could mean many things. I would guess it means to crucify the Christ or take the mark of the beast or perhaps it is simply pride. Regardless, the writer of the Psalm, David, is asking God to keep him from sin and secret fault, which clearly implies a helplessness to do it on his own via a freewill as you define it, and I don't see why you are avoiding addressing that point. You say you've gone over and over it. I must have missed that. Love is patience, so I respectfully ask for your patience and to please address my valid point.

I apologize if I have intruded on a conversation you wished to have with SBG. I'm not sure if you meant to be saying I was patronizing SBG. I amen what I sincerely can amen.

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;566041] many Calvinists have told me right to my face that God enables them to believe.. and yet doesn't allow this for all men.. so it's first hand information coming right from the horses mouth so to speak..

Yes, but so did Jesus say it must be given by God to come to him. We have record of this with the account of Saul converted to Paul. Peter said that the hidden wisdom had to be revealed through the Gospel. How can you disagree with such plain scripture?

and if you have read any of SBGs comments then you can also see first hand for yourself what he teaches.

I've read SBG's posts for the most part. They are mostly scripture quotes and definitions of words with very little commentary. Much of what SBG says, I believe, is taken from an objective view as from outside of time which makes the commentary only viable in that context. You on the other hand are more subjective in your perspective and so perhaps you have a hard time relating.

I hate EVERY false way.. not just the false doctrines of Calvinism..

Eventide, I hardly think you are all knowing anymore than I am. The only false way is to not Love, that includes your enemies so that it be a Godly Love. I hate false doctrine also, but sometimes I must bite my tongue with those I wished I could confide in. We are all sinners and have walked falsely. Let us not push aside our pennance by holding others responsible in their ignorance, lest we be ignorant ourselves.

I answered your question clearly, although since you side with the Calvinists, you're going to see things that way.. and that's your prerogative.

I'm not taking any sides here.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, but so did Jesus say it must be given by God to come to him. We have record of this with the account of Saul converted to Paul. Peter said that the hidden wisdom had to be revealed through the Gospel. How can you disagree with such plain scripture?

Because we need to embrace the full counsel of God or we'll come up with strange false doctrines like UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION.. or something along those lines..

How can YOU disagree with this plain verse in scripture.. "He is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world..?

What makes you think that God only enlightens SOME people.. ?

I've read SBG's posts for the most part. They are mostly scripture quotes and definitions of words with very little commentary. Much of what SBG says, I believe, is taken from an objective view as from outside of time which makes the commentary only viable in that context. You on the other hand are more subjective in your perspective and so perhaps you have a hard time relating.

Everything he writes is based upon a FALSE representation of ELECTION.. because people have been taught that THEY are the elect, as if God chose Them AND His Son, rather than them IN HIS SON.

Eventide, I hardly think you are all knowing anymore than I am. The only false way is to not Love, that includes your enemies so that it be a Godly Love.

So you believe that UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are not FALSE doctrine ? Please explain..

I hate false doctrine also, but sometimes I must bite my tongue with those I wished I could confide in. We are all sinners and have walked falsely. Let us not push aside our pennance by holding others responsible in their ignorance, lest we be ignorant ourselves.

Don't you desire to correct false doctrine when you see it..?

I'm not taking any sides here.

OK.. lol

 

[childeye]

How can YOU disagree with this plain verse in scripture.. "He is that true light which lighteth EVERY MAN that comes into the world..?

What makes you think that God only enlightens SOME people.. ?

I don't disagree with the scripture. I believe it means that that which we know as Love in our hearts as mankind is the Word of God.

Everything he writes is based upon a FALSE representation of ELECTION.. because people have been taught that THEY are the elect, as if God chose Them AND His Son, rather than them IN HIS SON.

I would like you to elaborate more on what you mean by in the son before I would be able to comment further.

So you believe that UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and LIMITED ATONEMENT are not FALSE doctrine ? Please explain..

Eventide. I've tried to explain this before. It is lost in semantics to me. In other words I don't know what unconditional is meant to represent nor election according to Calvinists. I've given you my take that God has chosen the lowly to put to naught the high things.

Don't you desire to correct false doctrine when you see it..?

Yes but If I misunderstand it, I cannot correct it. Furthermore the Christ was crucified by those who did not understand his doctrine. They thought they were doing the right thing. I must love my enemies and that is simple enough to understand. So regardless of my differences with others, God will probably hold the more knowledgable accountable for any hostilities according to that simple Truth.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“Yes we are human but that is a rather general explanation. What is sinning willingly?â€

I should think it would be doing something that you already know is sin. And doing it anyway. I do it everyday. We all do, whether or not we realize it, whether or not we want to admit it. Doesn’t matter if we are a believer or not. The believer should realize and admit, but rarely does. We all are guilty of at least one sin of Adam. It’s not my fault. She made me do it or he made me do it, or the devil made me do it. It’s when we realize that it’s our fault, that’s when true confession begins. For the non-believer, it’s the realization through the revelation of God that they are sinning because they are in Adam and they are condemned and that God through his eternal love has provided a way out in Christ, who gave himself for humanity through his selfless love. That’s when belief in God and into Christ, or not, begins. That’s when baptism into Christ, or not, begins.


“For Paul seperates the desires of sin in the flesh from his desire to not sin even though he is flesh. We find this in the book of Romans where he declares, that which I will to do I don't do and that which I don't will to do that I do, therefore It is not I that does it but sin that dwelleth in my members.â€

Romans 7 is interpreted in many different ways. By it’s position in Romans, it’s referring to one who is in Christ. Paul is speaking from his soul concerning the constant war within him between the spirit and the flesh. In his mind he wants to follow the God who contacts him through his spirit. But there is this tug from the flesh that counteracts what he wants to do in his mind. Paul emphasizes the mind over emotion because he was an educated person. He doesn’t emphasize our emotions as is done today. He did the same thing in 1 Corinthians 12-14. With the mind I will do thus and so.

The end of Romans 7 is:

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
(KJV)

Romans 8 is the answer to Romans 7. Those who walk according to the Spirit will not be condemned in his own mind (Rom 8:1). The necessary life that answers the dilemma of Romans 7 is in Romans 8:

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(KJV)

Then Paul goes on to reveal that walking by the Spirit is the only way we can overcome the flesh. He repeats the same thing in Galatians 5.


“as we know, one act of love covers a multitude of sins.â€

Not one act of love. Love itself. Love is one unified ongoing practice. Paul’s description in 1Corinthians 13 reveals aspects of the one practice. The Greek word is in the singular. So also 1 Peter 4:8 to which you refer. The question is, can one who isn’t in Christ experience or practice love? I believe they can. And some do practice love. Usually for self-serving reasons. But there are also some who practice selfless love. A fact not always recognized by Christians who think such an idea takes away from the glory of Christ. And they interpret Romans 1-3 to back up their own idea.


“I say this to promote mercy and understanding of others for the sake of righeous judgment. My question was meant to ponder why one would want to condemn others and want to be a sinner. Certainly I am human but I don't want to be a sinner.â€

Don’t understand what you mean here. Surely no one wants to be a sinner. Even those who aren’t believers. At least not most of them. They’re just pluggin along doin what they think is right. Driven by their own conscience and the Laws of the land. Not everyone is a gang banger or wants to be.

FC

 

[childeye]

I feel like I'm jumping straight into the middle of a conversation here, but I have some verses to share that relate to predestination, free will, Calvinism, etc. I'm not saying I totally agree with Calvinism, but some verses of the Bible definitely seem to.

Acts 4: 24-28
"Why do the nations rage
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth take their stand
and the rulers gather together
against the Lord
and against his Anointed One.

27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."

This verse seems to say that God had planned from the very beginning the exact actions (and sins) of these people to complete his plan.

Also, John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So it is not by our choice, but by God's, that we come to him?

Good post.

 

[Eventide]

I don't disagree with the scripture. I believe it means that that which we know as Love in our hearts as mankind is the Word of God.

I don't disagree with scripture either.. as you implied earlier.. and I believe that this verse means exactly what it says, that He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

I would like you to elaborate more on what you mean by in the son before I would be able to comment further.

I'll start a thread and call it "Election in Christ".. rather than explain here in this post.

Eventide. I've tried to explain this before. It is lost in semantics to me. In other words I don't know what unconditional is meant to represent nor election according to Calvinists. I've given you my take that God has chosen the lowly to put to naught the high things.

Well if you're ignorant of what is meant by unconditional election, you can easily look online at the multitudes of sites which speak to this.

Yes but If I misunderstand it, I cannot correct it. Furthermore the Christ was crucified by those who did not understand his doctrine. They thought they were doing the right thing.

Again, if you're ignorant of these things then perhaps you should look into what they mean.

I must love my enemies and that is simple enough to understand. So regardless of my differences with others, God will probably hold the more knowledgable accountable for any hostilities according to that simple Truth.

Really.. how hostile is it to start a thread titled "Freewill religion is the man of sin" targeted at those who do accept free will ? ? ? I don't hear you calling that hostile.. maybe because you're so biased to it and yet you admit that you don't understand it.