Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

He bought the elect with His own Blood before they were born. For example, if Christ bought someone with His own Blood over 2000 yrs ago, and they are born a sinner lets say, 50yrs ago, then though they are born a sinner, their sins have been already removed before the presence of God. God is not going to count sins against a sinner that Christ has already paid for, so though they are born sinners as all men are, yet they are not condemned by God for them sins, Christ blood took them away forever..Now, I dont think you believe and understand this, do you ?

I think I understand what you're saying, and I know that to God all things have already come to pass. So what you say is true in that sense. We are in time however and for my part, I do not think it wise for me to take anything for granted. Thankful is thankful and thankful to be thankful.

 

[Elijah674]

I think I understand what you're saying, and I know that to God all things have already come to pass. So what you say is true in that sense. We are in time however and for my part, I do not think it wise for me to take anything for granted. Thankful is thankful and thankful to be thankful.

Good post. And if it were not so as God teach's, who would need FAITH!;) Yet, that teaching for truth of fallacy, has one adding 'error' to the Book! And that [IS] Fatal!

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

I think I understand what you're saying, and I know that to God all things have already come to pass. So what you say is true in that sense. We are in time however and for my part, I do not think it wise for me to take anything for granted. Thankful is thankful and thankful to be thankful.

If Christ's blood bought one over 2000 yrs ago, God will reveal it to them by giving them Faith, thats How they come to know about it. The Gospel reveals to them the Righteousness of God from Faith to Faith ! Rom 1:16-17



16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein [The Gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The word revealed is the greek word apokalypto and means:

to uncover, lay open what has been veiled or covered up

a) disclose, make bare

2) to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

God through the Gospel makes known to those whom Christ by His death made Righteous. Because by His obedience He shall make many righteous ! Rom 5:19

19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now if one has been secretly made righteous by Christ's obedience, God will make it known, disclose it, reveal it to them through Faith..

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

Response to post #153

“We are all condemned as sinners according to the law.â€

So all before Moses weren’t condemned? And the condemnation of Adam and Eve in Genesis wasn’t a condemnation at all? Didn’t God condemn their sin and then cover their shame with the coats of skin, foreshadowing what he would do under the Law, and eventually through the death of Jesus Christ?


“As you have so conveniently provided scripture that says God sent His son so that we would not be condemned according to the lawâ€

The Law isn’t mentioned in those passages. The Law isn’t even mentioned in the first six chapters of John, except for this:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (KJV)

And to whom was the Law given?

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


“It is God's intention to gather all up in mercy. The merciful will receive mercy and by what measure you use to judge others the same will be used against you.â€

Interesting interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But I think I’ll stick with Paul’s description.


“Jesus did not condemn. He said things like the sick need a doctor. So believe him when he says these things. I do.â€

I believe what Jesus said. Not interpretations of what he said.

FC

 

[Eventide]

Of course I'm for the Truth Eventide..

Then you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.. that's the truth of scripture.. doing nothing is not the truth. It's a direct contradiction to the simplicity of the gospel.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Law isn’t mentioned in those passages.

Adam and Eve were under Law in the very beginning. It was just condensed in the one command Gen 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When this Tree was eaten from, its called a Transgression Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Tim 2:14

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The word transgression is the greek word parabasis and means:


a going over

2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law

If Adam and Eve were not under Law, then how could they Transgress ? Thats why death entered into the world, by Transgression of God's Law..

Now, were they condemned legally by God for their Transgression ? No they were not, they were chastened, but God provided them coats of skins, typifying that their Transgression was laid upon the Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman, who would eventually come into the world and give Himself a Sacrifice for their sins..

 

[childeye]

Then you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved.. that's the truth of scripture.. doing nothing is not the truth. It's a direct contradiction to the simplicity of the gospel.

As you have used the phrase "doing nothing" applied to not believing, I must agree. Had you said "not believing" is doing something I also would agree. And if you say we did nothing because God has chosen the low things over the high, I would again agree.

 

[childeye]

Adam and Eve were under Law in the very beginning. It was just condensed in the one command Gen 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When this Tree was eaten from, its called a Transgression Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Tim 2:14

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The word transgression is the greek word parabasis and means:


a going over
2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law

If Adam and Eve were not under Law, then how could they Transgress ? Thats why death entered into the world, by Transgression of God's Law..

Now, were they condemned legally by God for their Transgression ? No they were not, they were chastened, but God provided them coats of skins, typifying that their Transgression was laid upon the Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman, who would eventually come into the world and give Himself a Sacrifice for their sins..

You say so many things with far reaching implications. Keep that up and your brain will burst.

 

[savedbygrace57]

You say so many things with far reaching implications. Keep that up and your brain will burst.

Its too bad you cannot understand these things.

 

[childeye]

Its too bad you cannot understand these things.

I didn't say I don't understand them. Am I saying something that leaves you with that impression? I was attempting some humor with you. Perhaps it was not appropriate. I meant nothing personal in all sincerity. I like the things you say. They are very thought provoking and educational. There are different parts of the body and God has given to each what is necessary to accomplish their task. You seem to be feeling you are alone in some capacity which I can surely empathize with. If there is something you feel the need to share with someone I am open. I will do my best to try to understand you and reciprocate with a more serious demeanor.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Response to post #153

“We are all condemned as sinners according to the law.â€

So all before Moses weren’t condemned? And the condemnation of Adam and Eve in Genesis wasn’t a condemnation at all? Didn’t God condemn their sin and then cover their shame with the coats of skin, foreshadowing what he would do under the Law, and eventually through the death of Jesus Christ?


“As you have so conveniently provided scripture that says God sent His son so that we would not be condemned according to the lawâ€

The Law isn’t mentioned in those passages. The Law isn’t even mentioned in the first six chapters of John, except for this:

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. (KJV)

And to whom was the Law given?

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?


“It is God's intention to gather all up in mercy. The merciful will receive mercy and by what measure you use to judge others the same will be used against you.â€

Interesting interpretation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. But I think I’ll stick with Paul’s description.


“Jesus did not condemn. He said things like the sick need a doctor. So believe him when he says these things. I do.â€

I believe what Jesus said. Not interpretations of what he said.

FC

FC, thanks for the response. Since sin entered into all of us through our Father Adam, we are all sinners and the law brings forth the knowledge of this. The take that I gave that God wishes to gather all up in mercy is Pauls not mine and Paul would say it's not his but Christs'. The point is God does not want to condemn anybody, but have mercy upon all. Unfortunately, there are people who do not want to believe this.

 

[Elijah674]

Adam and Eve were under Law in the very beginning. It was just condensed in the one command Gen 2:16-17

16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

When this Tree was eaten from, its called a Transgression Rom 5:14

14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1 Tim 2:14

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

The word transgression is the greek word parabasis and means:


a going over

2) metaph. a disregarding, violating
a) of the Mosaic law
b) the breach of a definite, promulgated, ratified law

If Adam and Eve were not under Law, then how could they Transgress ? Thats why death entered into the world, by Transgression of God's Law..

Now, were they condemned legally by God for their Transgression ? No they were not, they were chastened, but God provided them coats of skins, typifying that their Transgression was laid upon the Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman, who would eventually come into the world and give Himself a Sacrifice for their sins..

So you are [posting] that God lied & satan told the truth, huh? You say..

Now, were they condemned legally by God for their Transgression ? No they were not, they were chastened, but God provided them coats of skins, typifying that their Transgression was laid upon the Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman, who would eventually come into the world and give Himself a Sacrifice for their sins..[/QUOTE]

And Cain in Gen.4:7? He too will have Eternal life in hell, according to your teaching, huh? for he was not condemned leagally! And Christ telling him, [IF] he did.. 'DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?' had Christ playing games with all the Universe with that suggestion, for He knew that Cain could not go against His programed robot mentality! (worse that that! Obad. 1:16)

--Elijah

 

[childeye]

So you are [posting] that God lied & satan told the truth, huh? You say..

Now, were they condemned legally by God for their Transgression ? No they were not, they were chastened, but God provided them coats of skins, typifying that their Transgression was laid upon the Lamb of God, the Seed of the Woman, who would eventually come into the world and give Himself a Sacrifice for their sins..

And Cain in Gen.4:7? He too will have Eternal life in hell, according to your teaching, huh? for he was not condemned leagally! And Christ telling him, [IF] he did.. 'DOEST WELL, SHALT THOU NOT BE ACCEPTED?' had Christ playing games with all the Universe with that suggestion, for He knew that Cain could not go against His programed robot mentality! (worse that that! Obad. 1:16)

--Elijah

[/QUOTE]
Elijah. I think SBG is saying sin came through Adam not Cain. Cains' act of murder is a product of obedience to that sin. Your issue is to point out that God proposed an alternative, which is true in a sense, but God's more deeper intention is to show Cain he is being victimized by sin and how to beat sin, which obviously Cain did not acquire whether through unbelief or blindness to what God was saying, for he killed his brother. Clearly to murder one's brother is to first be filled with an undesirable passion. This is what some of us mean when we say men do not have freewills simply because men have brains and choose. No one chooses to have these passions. These vile passions live in us through misconceptions of Truth. That is what God is trying to say to Cain.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? Cain feels rejected because he did not do well as his brother did. He does not choose to feel this way, it is his pride that is hurt and without any just cause. Ignorance of what drives his passions is the problem. For if his offering had been given for the sake of the recipients pleasure he would have gladly withdrawn the offering and sought something desirable to offer. But because he gave the offering for the sake of regarding and measuring the giver, he counted it a personal rejection and this became jealousy.

The same is seen in those who count whatever they do as a religious duty to the credit of the doer, which is what freewill comes to represent in the minds of most people. For freewill is used to hold people responsible for things we all do because it hypocriticaly claims we can choose not to fall victim to sin, yet we are all guilty of sin. The only way to not fall victim to sin therefore is by having the knowledge of how sin manipulates the minds of it's victims. So in a sense men can choose to not be a victim but only after receiving this knowledge. Hence the Truth sets one free from the slavery of sin.

 

[Former Christian]

Savedbygrace57

To #166

“Adam and Eve were under Law in the very beginning. It was just condensed in the one command Gen 2:16-17â€

Ro 4:
13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless,
15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring— not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Ro 5:
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Ro 5:20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more,

Ga 3:
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Ga 3:
17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.
18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator.


“Rom 5:14
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.â€

Rom 5:13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound


“1 Tim 2:14
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.â€

1 Tim 2:
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women will be saved through childbearing— if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 Tim 1:
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

All references from NIV.

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“FC, thanks for the response. Since sin entered into all of us through our Father Adam, we are all sinners and the law brings forth the knowledge of this. The take that I gave that God wishes to gather all up in mercy is Pauls not mine and Paul would say it's not his but Christs'. The point is God does not want to condemn anybody, but have mercy upon all. Unfortunately, there are people who do not want to believe this.â€

I agree that God doesn’t want to condemn anybody. But he did so in order that all could be saved in Christ. And in that is God’s mercy on all. It then becomes the responsibility of each individual upon revelation by God of his plan, to receive what God has given mercifully.

FC

 

[Eventide]

And if you say we did nothing because God has chosen the low things over the high, I would again agree.

I would never say that.. I would not say that we must 'do' nothing because God chose the lowly things over the high things.. that doesn't negate that a person must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. The only people who say that you don't need to do anything in order to be saved are Calvinists.

 

[savedbygrace57]

fc

I agree that God doesn’t want to condemn anybody.

That is error, God made some people for the express purpose of condemning them for their sins Justly. This makes manifest His Grace in Saving Elect.

Prov 16:4

4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

The wicked here are the vessels of wrath that are fitted for destruction Rom 9:


20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Now God made them in contrast to those He made vessels of mercy who are being prepared for Glory Rom 9:23

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

It was God that causeth these to differ ! 1 Cor 4:7

For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Receive here in this passage means it has been Sovereignly given ! They had no choice in the matter, it was God's choice that they received it..

Like when Job said to his wife Job 2:10

But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah. I think SBG is saying sin came through Adam not Cain. Cains' act of murder is a product of obedience to that sin. Your issue is to point out that God proposed an alternative, which is true in a sense, but God's more deeper intention is to show Cain he is being victimized by sin and how to beat sin, which obviously Cain did not acquire whether through unbelief or blindness to what God was saying, for he killed his brother. Clearly to murder one's brother is to first be filled with an undesirable passion. This is what some of us mean when we say men do not have freewills simply because men have brains and choose. No one chooses to have these passions. These vile passions live in us through misconceptions of Truth. That is what God is trying to say to Cain.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? Cain feels rejected because he did not do well as his brother did. He does not choose to feel this way, it is his pride that is hurt and without any just cause. Ignorance of what drives his passions is the problem. For if his offering had been given for the sake of the recipients pleasure he would have gladly withdrawn the offering and sought something desirable to offer. But because he gave the offering for the sake of regarding and measuring the giver, he counted it a personal rejection and this became jealousy.

The same is seen in those who count whatever they do as a religious duty to the credit of the doer, which is what freewill comes to represent in the minds of most people. For freewill is used to hold people responsible for things we all do because it hypocriticaly claims we can choose not to fall victim to sin, yet we are all guilty of sin. The only way to not fall victim to sin therefore is by having the knowledge of how sin manipulates the minds of it's victims. So in a sense men can choose to not be a victim but only after receiving this knowledge. Hence the Truth sets one free from the slavery of sin.[/QUOTE]


You seem to miss the total point? satan surely was there in this 3 way conservation. Christ/God Himself spoke directly to the three. Cain was calmed down surely with Christ's WORD of being given another [FREE WILL CHOICE].

Never before had we seen recorded where this 'mature' man rejected the Lamb Offering or any other sin. And it is not hard to understand that God does not lie! Nor play games about Salvation to most here.(?)

And all Cain needed to do was DECIDE to DO WHAT WAS REQUIRED! His [FREE CHOICE] to make.


SO: This.. 'The Re: Freewill religeon is the Man of Sin!' title has Christ/God as the devil instead of the devil. Quite an 2 Cor. 4:2 open violation of satan's 'cute tactics!'.


But that is just [ONE] of satan's many false lies about the Godhead as seen in satan's doctrinal teachings of his organized church of Rev. 17:1-5 daughters.


And as this was an mature sin between Cain & Christ and with Cain's freewill choice in mature final rejection of Christ as seen in the NT Sin Against the Holy Ghost's in mature fullness of Acts 5 between He & Ananias & Sapphira, so Christ's REJECTION IN PERSON was also the Full Sin AGAINST THE SAME UNITIFIED CHRIST AND THE HOLY GHOST here, and in this fatal [Free/Will Decision].


And we are told that Cain was now turned over to satan with his [FULL DESIRE] from there on for satan. And he became satan's first full fledged convert! And his first killer of his brother.


And again! God was not the one who had predestined Cain or satan to revolt, it was their own free DECISION MADE to do so... MATURELY with NO WAY BACK!

And because the Godhead knew in eternity that free/will was an option for this revolt & would take place is not the question in the least.


And the post heading is doing satan's work in once again calling the Godhead liars by giving Their creation free/will & in bottom/line being the 'GODHEAD OF SIN as his Gen. 3 stuff.
which is taught for 't'ruth.


And as 'i' see it, this 'heading' is about as close if not past Heb. 6:6 as one can come to, in the fatal free choice of the Great Transgression of the PRESUMPTION SIN'S that David WARNED of in Psalms 19:13.

--Elijah

 

[childeye]

I would never say that.. I would not say that we must 'do' nothing because God chose the lowly things over the high things.. that doesn't negate that a person must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. The only people who say that you don't need to do anything in order to be saved are Calvinists.

Are you saying, Calvinists teach that you don't have to believe in the Christ to be saved?

 

[childeye]

Elijah. I think SBG is saying sin came through Adam not Cain. Cains' act of murder is a product of obedience to that sin. Your issue is to point out that God proposed an alternative, which is true in a sense, but God's more deeper intention is to show Cain he is being victimized by sin and how to beat sin, which obviously Cain did not acquire whether through unbelief or blindness to what God was saying, for he killed his brother. Clearly to murder one's brother is to first be filled with an undesirable passion. This is what some of us mean when we say men do not have freewills simply because men have brains and choose. No one chooses to have these passions. These vile passions live in us through misconceptions of Truth. That is what God is trying to say to Cain.

If you do well, will you not be accepted? Cain feels rejected because he did not do well as his brother did. He does not choose to feel this way, it is his pride that is hurt and without any just cause. Ignorance of what drives his passions is the problem. For if his offering had been given for the sake of the recipients pleasure he would have gladly withdrawn the offering and sought something desirable to offer. But because he gave the offering for the sake of regarding and measuring the giver, he counted it a personal rejection and this became jealousy.

The same is seen in those who count whatever they do as a religious duty to the credit of the doer, which is what freewill comes to represent in the minds of most people. For freewill is used to hold people responsible for things we all do because it hypocriticaly claims we can choose not to fall victim to sin, yet we are all guilty of sin. The only way to not fall victim to sin therefore is by having the knowledge of how sin manipulates the minds of it's victims. So in a sense men can choose to not be a victim but only after receiving this knowledge. Hence the Truth sets one free from the slavery of sin.

You seem to miss the total point? satan surely was there in this 3 way conservation. Christ/God Himself spoke directly to the three. Cain was calmed down surely with Christ's WORD of being given another [FREE WILL CHOICE].

Never before had we seen recorded where this 'mature' man rejected the Lamb Offering or any other sin. And it is not hard to understand that God does not lie! Nor play games about Salvation to most here.(?)

And all Cain needed to do was DECIDE to DO WHAT WAS REQUIRED! His [FREE CHOICE] to make.


SO: This.. 'The Re: Freewill religeon is the Man of Sin!' title has Christ/God as the devil instead of the devil. Quite an 2 Cor. 4:2 open violation of satan's 'cute tactics!'.


But that is just [ONE] of satan's many false lies about the Godhead as seen in satan's doctrinal teachings of his organized church of Rev. 17:1-5 daughters.


And as this was an mature sin between Cain & Christ and with Cain's freewill choice in mature final rejection of Christ as seen in the NT Sin Against the Holy Ghost's in mature fullness of Acts 5 between He & Ananias & Sapphira, so Christ's REJECTION IN PERSON was also the Full Sin AGAINST THE SAME UNITIFIED CHRIST AND THE HOLY GHOST here, and in this fatal [Free/Will Decision].


And we are told that Cain was now turned over to satan with his [FULL DESIRE] from there on for satan. And he became satan's first full fledged convert! And his first killer of his brother.


And again! God was not the one who had predestined Cain or satan to revolt, it was their own free DECISION MADE to do so... MATURELY with NO WAY BACK!

And because the Godhead knew in eternity that free/will was an option for this revolt & would take place is not the question in the least.


And the post heading is doing satan's work in once again calling the Godhead liars by giving Their creation free/will & in bottom/line being the 'GODHEAD OF SIN as his Gen. 3 stuff.
which is taught for 't'ruth.


And as 'i' see it, this 'heading' is about as close if not past Heb. 6:6 as one can come to, in the fatal free choice of the Great Transgression of the PRESUMPTION SIN'S that David WARNED of in Psalms 19:13.

--Elijah

[/QUOTE]I just read Psalms 19:13. the person asks for God to cleanse him from secret faults because we cannot understand our errors in 19:12 and then asks God to keep him from presumptuos sins or willful sins. I don't see how it is possible to apply this to a freewill choice to sin as you claim Cain did. It is stating the opposite since the man is asking God to keep him from willful sin. If the man had a freewill he would not have to ask that God keep him from willfully sinning nor would he have to ask that God cleanse him of secret faults.