Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

=Eventide;572913]I am too, although that's not what we were discussing.. Do you typically deflect off topic ? Why would you do that ?

Actually I felt it was on topic seeing that God being good, He makes good choices for good reasons.

I thought you mentioned that you hoped that God chose you.. that's why I asked if you were not sure about THAT.. not about whether or not you're sure that God is good.

Yes but if He does not choose me whether that be at the beginning of time or the end of time it was the right decision according to God's purpose. So it is I said I hope He chooses me or has chosen me.

I get from scripture that God chooses all men IN CHRIST.. not in Adam, but in Christ, the Last Adam.

I'm not sure I understand you concerning this "chose us in Christ", "not in Adam". How does God choose us in Christ and how does He choose us in Adam?

That's why, because God chooses us to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.. not because of anything in our Adamic nature..

But what about my statement that He chooses so that no man will think they did it?

If you consider the simple truth of the gospel a trick question, then I'm sorry..

When did I say the Truth of the Gospel is a trick question? I believe salvation is a free gift by grace through faith. You said, " He says that if I shall seek to save my life that I shall lose it, and that if I lose it for HIM and the gospel that I shall save it. Please note you said "for HIM and the gospel" . Then you said,"Are those same verses applicable to you or are you hoping for a free pass ?

This is a false dichotomy as these two points are not mutually exclusive.

I agree.. for some people who believe that God chose them and that they're the elect unconditionally and that they couldn't resist the gospel..

Yeah but I could resist the Gospel at one point in my past when it was veiled to me and I didn't understand it. But I could not resist it later after I understood.

Correct me if I'm wrong, although there's only one group in Christendom who would say that men can't believe the gospel of God unless He allows it.. want to guess what group that would be ?

Gee, let me guess. The Calvinists? I really don't see how you are any different. Can you resist the Gospel? Can you deny that Christ came in the flesh? I will safely assume you will say no. So how is it you believed if God didn't allow it? And if you cannot deny the Truth now having seen it, what reason can you give for believing that proves your believing was not given by God per your individual self?

 

[Eventide]

Actually I felt it was on topic seeing that God being good, He makes good choices for good reasons.

Meaning that if He chooses you, then that would be a good choice ?

Yes but if He does not choose me whether that be at the beginning of time or the end of time it was the right decision according to God's purpose. So it is I said I hope He chooses me or has chosen me.

So what is the basis of your hope that He will choose you ? IOW why would God choose you and not some other person in the same condition as you ?

I'm not sure I understand you concerning this "chose us in Christ", "not in Adam". How does God choose us in Christ and how does He choose us in Adam?

FLESH gives birth to the flesh and we're all in the same boat there.. God isn't choosing any in Adam because all in Adam are under the same condemnation.. because by the offense of one condemnation has come upon all men.. and by the righteousness of one, the free gift..

SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit and that's why we must be born again by His Spirit.

But what about my statement that He chooses so that no man will think they did it?

What about it ? This implies that you're hoping that He will choose you personally and yet you're no different than any other person in Adam.. condemned in the flesh and justified in the Spirit.. His Spirit.. not ours. IOW you need to be born again just like everyone else.. that's why I asked if this was applicable to you..

"If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me."

Does that sound like God is choosing you ?

 

[childeye]

=Eventide;573136]Meaning that if He chooses you, then that would be a good choice ?

You over reach.

So what is the basis of your hope that He will choose you ? IOW why would God choose you and not some other person in the same condition as you ?

I personally believe there is an order from first to last in the kingdom of God and so God has prepared some men for greater glory than others. I do not have much hope of being one of the greater ones for humility prevents that. So my basis of hope is that God has a plan for me. I feel Love even for people that wrong me. I've seen where those who have wronged me did not know what they were doing. I've lost all desire for carnal values. These things cause me to believe Christ is in me, or as you put it , I am in Christ.

FLESH gives birth to the flesh and we're all in the same boat there.. God isn't choosing any in Adam because all in Adam are under the same condemnation.. because by the offense of one condemnation has come upon all men.. and by the righteousness of one, the free gift..

This alone says there is not a freewill while in post garden Adam. The will is subject to what one believes in. We are born trapped in the first Adam, servants of sin.

SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit and that's why we must be born again by His Spirit.

So this shows there is the hope for a freewill when we believe upon the Christ.

What about it ? This implies that you're hoping that He will choose you personally and yet you're no different than any other person in Adam..

This does imply I am no different than any other person in Adam. I have already said I hope He chooses \has chosen me. You seem to be saying you think He chose everybody when he sent His son into the world, am I correct in assuming this?

condemned in the flesh and justified in the Spirit.. His Spirit.. not ours. IOW you need to be born again just like everyone else.. that's why I asked if this was applicable to you..

Of course this is applicable to me.

"If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me."

Does that sound like God is choosing you ?

The choosing me in my view would be applied to when I was able to see the Truth of the Christ as opposed to when I was yet blind to what a Christ is. Hence Jesus says, "IF any man" indicating there is a qualifier necessary, faith. The deny yourself part is, after believing, to die in Christ believing he will do better with my body than I do. There is also a choosing that is according to how much one has died in christ, I presume, because it says many are called but few are chosen. Hence I hope He chooses\has chosen me.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace !

Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Salvation is to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, and not the freewill of man. One may reply, but we must believe ! Yes, this is True, but we believe by or through Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace, and this is a evidence of Salvation by grace, and not a condition of it. The Man of sin has changed a evidence of salvation by Grace [Believing] into a condition for salvation, a performance man must do before his sins are forgiven and have Eternal Life.. So the Praise of believing goes not to grace, but to mans freewill..

 

[childeye]

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace !

Eph 1:6

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Salvation is to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace, and not the freewill of man. One may reply, but we must believe ! Yes, this is True, but we believe by or through Grace Acts 18:27

27And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace, and this is a evidence of Salvation by grace, and not a condition of it. The Man of sin has changed a evidence of salvation by Grace [Believing] into a condition for salvation, a performance man must do before his sins are forgiven and have Eternal Life.. So the Praise of believing goes not to grace, but to mans freewill..

I agree completely. What goes unoticed is the contrary spirits that occupy a persons soul depending upon which way they believe regarding this crucial point.

 

[glorydaz]

I agree completely. What goes unoticed is the contrary spirits that occupy a persons soul depending upon which way they believe regarding this crucial point.

I don't believe it goes unnoticed. ;)

 

[childeye]

I don't believe it goes unnoticed. ;)

I'm glad to hear you say this, for this is my concern and why i am even here writing. For I long to rejoice in a mutual faith and not be at odds.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace !

What Grace ? Salvation is to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace. Which Grace is Paul speaking of ? Well go back up to Eph 1:3-4

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the Election or Choice of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now if Grace is unmerited, undeserved favour toward sinful and rebellious man, as we all are by nature, and God has determined to save only some men by Grace [Election of Grace], then why is God Charged with being an unfair monster? Such thinking reveals a spirit of pride, and believes that God is indebted to man. This thinking therefore denies Salvation by Grace, and makes it out of debt. Yes, Grace is now reduced to something that God owes sinners. If God does not give give all all sinners without exception Saving Grace, then God is labeled as a Monster ! This is True with some Freewillers and its True with the Universalist; for each of these groups operate from the premise in their thinking that God is indebted to man, and so quite frankly both of these groups deny Salvation by Grace, because Salvation by Grace means Salvation by God's discriminating Grace, which He only gives to some men and not all. If God is Unjust if He does not save or offer to save all without exception, then Salvation cannot be by Grace, but of debt, there is no other conclusion.

Rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace !

The Natural Man in Our Pride, charge God with being Unfair, if He does not give guilty man a chance at being saved. Well if that is the case, you may as well call God unfair and unjust for not giving the the Angels that sinned a Chance , none recorded in scripture. 2 Pet 2:4

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

This word here sinned, it is the greek word hamartanō and means:


to be without a share in

2) to miss the mark

3) to err, be mistaken

4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong

5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin

Those Angels sinned against God's Law ! This presupposes that Angels were under Law to God in Heaven.

Now scripture indicates that God showed them no mercy, but the severity of God as Paul mentions in Rom 11:22

22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity;

I personally believe God did not Love those Angels that sinned.

But now if God is Love, which He is 1 Jn 4:8,16, then Why did He not out of Love and Pity and Mercy deal with these Angels that sinned, with Mercy ? They were His Creatures, they were called Sons of God, probably referred to here Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?


We know that there are Elect Angels 1 Tim 5:21, So we know God had a High Esteem for them, and no doubt God Loved them. Look at Gabriel. Now does this mean God is no longer Love, that He is not Merciful, and not Gracious since He showed none of theses to the Angels that sinned ? Now if we are consistent in our thinking, and do agree that God has dealt with the Fallen Angels Unmercifully, then we must Charge God with being an Unjust God.

If not, then we are saying that we are better than God's Angels that sinned and that is pride, the pride of man thinking.

 

[childeye]

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace !

What Grace ? Salvation is to the Praise of the Glory of His Grace. Which Grace is Paul speaking of ? Well go back up to Eph 1:3-4

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Its the Election or Choice of Grace Rom 11:5-6

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Now if Grace is unmerited, undeserved favour toward sinful and rebellious man, as we all are by nature, and God has determined to save only some men by Grace [Election of Grace], then why is God Charged with being an unfair monster? Such thinking reveals a spirit of pride, and believes that God is indebted to man. This thinking therefore denies Salvation by Grace, and makes it out of debt. Yes, Grace is now reduced to something that God owes sinners. If God does not give give all all sinners without exception Saving Grace, then God is labeled as a Monster ! This is True with some Freewillers and its True with the Universalist; for each of these groups operate from the premise in their thinking that God is indebted to man, and so quite frankly both of these groups deny Salvation by Grace, because Salvation by Grace means Salvation by God's discriminating Grace, which He only gives to some men and not all. If God is Unjust if He does not save or offer to save all without exception, then Salvation cannot be by Grace, but of debt, there is no other conclusion.

Rom 11:

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I can't say your wrong anywhere here, a very sound reasoning, however the part about universalists I see differently. If I'm correct a universalist believes all men will be saved. I don't see how we can say that all men will be saved for as you say it would not be grace, but nor could we say God could not do it and limit His grace. The cause being the hope of intercession for those who are not yet manifest as the elect. For still God's Spirit that would have us intercede for all men could not be vanity. God's purpose could be served from inside the creation by that work which was not from the beginning. The Creator come into the creation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

child

If I'm correct a universalist believes all men will be saved.

Yes, which totally destroys the Truth of Election. For all to wind up saved means all without exception were God's Elect. Thats unscriptural. Because if all were elect, then there were no elect, to be distinguished from the rest that were not elect..

The concept of being God's elect necessitates God choosing a People over and above all others and loving them exclusively. Deut 7:6-7

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Meaning that if He chooses you, then that would be a good choice ?



So what is the basis of your hope that He will choose you ? IOW why would God choose you and not some other person in the same condition as you ?



FLESH gives birth to the flesh and we're all in the same boat there.. God isn't choosing any in Adam because all in Adam are under the same condemnation.. because by the offense of one condemnation has come upon all men.. and by the righteousness of one, the free gift..

SPIRIT gives birth to the Spirit and that's why we must be born again by His Spirit.



What about it ? This implies that you're hoping that He will choose you personally and yet you're no different than any other person in Adam.. condemned in the flesh and justified in the Spirit.. His Spirit.. not ours. IOW you need to be born again just like everyone else.. that's why I asked if this was applicable to you..

"If any man shall come after Me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow Me."

Does that sound like God is choosing you ?

AMEN Brother!!!

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I can't say your wrong anywhere here, a very sound reasoning, however the part about universalists I see differently. If I'm correct a universalist believes all men will be saved. I don't see how we can say that all men will be saved for as you say it would not be grace, but nor could we say God could not do it and limit His grace. The cause being the hope of intercession for those who are not yet manifest as the elect. For still God's Spirit that would have us intercede for all men could not be vanity. God's purpose could be served from inside the creation by that work which was not from the beginning. The Creator come into the creation.

Not ALL men will be saved but, Salvation is available to ALL men. However, they must come by "faith."

 

[Grubal Muruch]

child



Yes, which totally destroys the Truth of Election. For all to wind up saved means all without exception were God's Elect. Thats unscriptural. Because if all were elect, then there were no elect, to be distinguished from the rest that were not elect..

The concept of being God's elect necessitates God choosing a People over and above all others and loving them exclusively. Deut 7:6-7

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

The "only elect" are those who receive Christ through faith. If a person does not respond this way to the message then, they will spend eternity separated from God and go into eternal punishment...

 

[savedbygrace57]

gb

If a person does not respond this way to the message then, they will spend eternity separated from God and go into eternal punishment

Responding is a work, something man does. Election is of Grace, not of works Rom 11:5-6

5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

You teach salvation by works, not by Grace or Election of Grace..

 

[savedbygrace57]

Not ALL men will be saved but, Salvation is available to ALL men. However, they must come by "faith."

They must come by Faith. Coming is a work, something man does. You teach man is saved by his works. You deny salvation by grace. You deny that Christ's death alone saves those he died for.

 

[childeye]

child

Yes, which totally destroys the Truth of Election. For all to wind up saved means all without exception were God's Elect. Thats unscriptural. Because if all were elect, then there were no elect, to be distinguished from the rest that were not elect..

The concept of being God's elect necessitates God choosing a People over and above all others and loving them exclusively. Deut 7:6-7

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

I don't see how this addresses the point that I feel the need to intercede for others and not limit God's grace.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't see how this addresses the point that I feel the need to intercede for others and not limit God's grace.

If you want to end up like SbyG, keep going there for instruction.

This is what I'm talking about. You need to go to the Word of God and ask for the Spirit's leading and not be led away by false teachers. Beware.....

 

[childeye]

If you want to end up like SbyG, keep going there for instruction.

This is what I'm talking about. You need to go to the Word of God and ask for the Spirit's leading and not be led away by false teachers. Beware.....

Glorydaz, thanks for the concern as always, but I don't go to anyone but God for instruction as should we all. I see nothing wrong with SBG anymore than I see that we all see through a glass darkly. I would point out that I am just reiterating what Paul said. God instructs me that we can all sit around here and talk about who knows more than who, while the one who knows very little is out doing the things of God, not talking about it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

I don't see how this addresses the point that I feel the need to intercede for others and not limit God's grace.

Thats not my concern how you feel what you must do. I am here to witness on what Christ done to save His People, and may I add, His Grace Reigns, its not limited by no one Rom 5:21

That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

You have much more of a chance to limit death than to limit My Christ's Grace..