Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[patience7]

Hey, I am new to this site so go easy!!!:waving

When God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden of Eden He told man not to eat of that tree. Satan came along and tempted Eve to eat of the tree - at that point she and Adam had a choice to make - to eat or not to eat. That is freedom of will to choose.

Yes, God shows mercy to whom he will show mercy. First of all we have to believe. To believe in something is someone's choice.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 Also to "diligently seek him" would be a choice.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That is also a choice - to believe or not to believe.

And yes, it is wrong to use our will in direct opposition to God. The scriptures that are being posted from Isaiah 14:12-14 are an example of direct opposition to God.

 

[childeye]

It sounds to me like you do believe in... IRRESISTABLE GRACE..

If God forces His love upon people, and He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world.. then why isn't every man saved ?

Yes, to me His Person in the Image of the Christ is irresistable and worthy to live and die for in all honesty. I don't even count myself saved, for therein is my hope and hope is a good thing. As for others, this is why we preach the Gospel in hopes that men might be saved. Why won't everyone be saved? Perhaps they don't find Him irresistable, but to me if some men are not saved, they just don't see the Truth or won't recieve it. For as I hope you know the Gospel resists the proud and invites the lowly. God looks down from heaven and He sees a little boy digging in the trash. And upon finding a crust of bread, he at once rejoices and thanks God. At the same time on earth a man walks out of his office building and upon finding a scratch in his brand new Porsche, he immediately curses God.

 

[childeye]

Isn't that something we do?

Some of us, yes. Some of us do not. But it is clear that God has chosen the lowly rich in faith. Being lowly, and by this circumstance receiving a greater faith so that it be of God, is therefore no reason to boast.

 

[childeye]

Seems obvious, huh?
Fear is the beginning of wisdom. Mankind is lost! But not all at once do we see death. Nor has the lost ones lost all of what God created them with. LOVE? All the lost still have some love left. Yet, it is REQUIRED to have the Agape Love & BE BORN AGAIN with it! OK??

Now: How does God bring this about to us LOST ones whose love has to become the Real Love? There are two ways found in Jude 1:22-23. Both Compassion & Fear.
We hear of compassion much. Read Isa. 5:1-5 & we see that God asks what more could He do than what He had (HAS) Done in LOVING COMPASSION?

OK: Here in the next verse one needs to pay attention! Jude has two ways for God to reach out in TRUE LOVING ways. The first did not work, and the next will be His last resort. He says that He will cut down the HEDGE OF HIS LOVING PROTECTION! But how is that LOVE one asks?

FEAR has one (like the prodicial son) wake up, if the seed had been sown, it even works better. OK, now fear saves NO ONE is agreed! But when one comes crying out to God while even being lost & uncoverted, it is then that they are most likely to choose to yield up the stubborn 'will' to Acts 5:32's CONDITION!

If so.. it is THEN THAT THEY BECOME BORN AGAIN WITH AGAPE TRUE LOVE. And whose free choice is it? See Acts 9:6 for that one! And it could have gone either way. The DECISION IS OURS TO MAKE!

You quote scripture meant unto God's glory establishing His righteousness, while demeaning ours. Yet you finish with saying the decision is ours. The ability to decide however means nothing, if we are too stupid to decide for our own good. The parable of the vineyard is about how even honorable men without knowledge of God are starved in Spirit. Why? because they know not the Truth to which Godly knowledge is pertaining to. And why? because it is hidden from us because of our pride. So yes we decide, so what? If we have not this knowledge of God, our ability to decide is only able to bring us ruin.

 

[childeye]

Hey, I am new to this site so go easy!!!:waving

When God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden of Eden He told man not to eat of that tree. Satan came along and tempted Eve to eat of the tree - at that point she and Adam had a choice to make - to eat or not to eat. That is freedom of will to choose.

Yes, God shows mercy to whom he will show mercy. First of all we have to believe. To believe in something is someone's choice.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 Also to "diligently seek him" would be a choice.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That is also a choice - to believe or not to believe.

And yes, it is wrong to use our will in direct opposition to God. The scriptures that are being posted from Isaiah 14:12-14 are an example of direct opposition to God.

Hello patience. There are many definitions of freewill. If you are equating the act of choosing or deciding as a free will I would concede we decide and choose as we have brains capable of conscious decision and the ability to follow through with freedom of action in most cases. But if you then change that definition to mean we freely choose, we must evaluate further which is the point of this thread. Believing I would not categorize as a free choice for I surmise if you are like me, I cannot choose not to believe in the Christ. I see no greater act of Love that can be performed wherein I could place my trust. Moreover it is clear in scripture that God chose the lowly rich in faith to put to not the high things. This may sound silly to do this to some, but not to me. God who is no respector of persons has done this so that men will not be able to boast. Hence He destroys the wisdom of this world because His foolishness is greater than the wisdom of this world. So while I have decided to believe in the Christ, it is my testimony that I have received revelation from God so as to believe whereas before I did not know what to believe. And this is not my right to boast in choosing, since I am of poor means and lowly stature in society and these cicumstances made the Gospel inviting to me and Good News, while the Gospel resists the proud or is it the proud resist the Gospel?

 

[childeye]

Hey, I am new to this site so go easy!!!:waving

When God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden of Eden He told man not to eat of that tree. Satan came along and tempted Eve to eat of the tree - at that point she and Adam had a choice to make - to eat or not to eat. That is freedom of will to choose.

Yes, God shows mercy to whom he will show mercy. First of all we have to believe. To believe in something is someone's choice.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 Also to "diligently seek him" would be a choice.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That is also a choice - to believe or not to believe.

And yes, it is wrong to use our will in direct opposition to God. The scriptures that are being posted from Isaiah 14:12-14 are an example of direct opposition to God.

I want you to know that the term free applied in front of will offers the possibility of it's counterpart, slavery so as to make the distinction. So, objectively they are both relative, but to what? left is right to one who is facing you, but which way is the west for I keep going forever and never get there. I was heading south but eventually I ended up going North. All things are relative to an absolute. Scripture says whom you obey is your master. What is freedom from God is servitude to sin, What is servitude to God is freedom from sin. No edification in arguing semantics.

We all inherit sin through Adam according to scripture. If we go back to the first man we do not find that God gave him a choice regarding eating of the tree of knowledge. God never said to man he could disobey Him for He is the absolute. It was in fact Satan who proposed we had a choice, hence he said we could disobey and not die. In this sense freedom became a temptation only viable through a corrupt image of God.

For Satan said, God does not want you to eat, because He knows if you eat, your eyes will be open and you will be like Gods. Hence to the innocent, who had no knowledge of guile, an image of God was sown in their minds, that was of a self-serving God, who would sacrifice others for Himself. Being deceived by this most cunning of God's creatures, they believed, or rather unbelieved, and ate.

Now some will claim that because there was an option, we could have said no to Satan. The mind that thinks thus misses the point; that the mistake was that we accepted a corrupt image of God and traded in what was Holy for what was not. This is what fascilitated disobedience. And this was possible because we did not know what Holiness was when we had it. Regardless, we now all die and have sin even as God who was ever true had said would happen. Our minds being corrupted, the will cannot be free. If one now claims he has no sin, he is a liar.

For this reason Jesus said the Truth will set you free. Free from what? we are slaves to no one they answered. Whosoever sins is a slave to sin, Jesus said. And then this Jesus, this Christ, who is the True Image of God even as the only begotten of the Father climbed onto his cross and revealed the eternal loving trustworthiness of Gods nature. And there he sacrificed himself for us saying, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Now if we eat this bread from heaven, if we believe that this is the nature of God, though I cannot fathom any reason why anyone would not want to believe this, then it is a good thing He is self-serving, according to His perpetually perfect nature. Consequently it is a good thing to serve Him, for whoever serves Him, in truth serves himself. There is nothing wrong with slavery to God except to the corrupt mind. But the pure mind desires only to serve Him. Please be not offended in me, or be offended if you must, for many were offended by God's Christ, even because he revealed our own wicked depravity.

He is the only true light that shines in the darkness we are in. For this reason, the children of God are born out of corruption. So that they can grow towards God forever and love Him with all their hearts ,minds, and souls. Unfortunately for man, we often must believe in evil before we believe in good. The only freewill is one that sees the Truth, and is enslaved by it. To believe we can choose to not obey God is our vanity, and our destuction.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Hey, I am new to this site so go easy!!!:waving

When God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the midst of the garden of Eden He told man not to eat of that tree. Satan came along and tempted Eve to eat of the tree - at that point she and Adam had a choice to make - to eat or not to eat. That is freedom of will to choose.

Yes, God shows mercy to whom he will show mercy. First of all we have to believe. To believe in something is someone's choice.
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6 Also to "diligently seek him" would be a choice.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

That is also a choice - to believe or not to believe.

And yes, it is wrong to use our will in direct opposition to God. The scriptures that are being posted from Isaiah 14:12-14 are an example of direct opposition to God.

Hi patience7, I too am new to this site, and I'm not worried if others go easy on me or not, but I am in full agreement with what you have brought to the table. We absolutely have a choice to make, and even though God knows what we will decide, He does not force us to make the decisions we make.

We are not robots, and that is why God gave us a brain, to reason for our selves. The calling is most definitely from God, but the rest is up to us. He will only call for so long and then begins to harden the heart.

What is it to harden the heart? It is to commit the will or mind against the claims of God and of humanity. To harden the heart is to commit the soul in a spirit of disobedience, and self-will, and stubbornness, against God and his government.

"Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith, To-day if ye will hear his voice, ßharden not your hearts."--Hebrews 3: 7,8

God Bless,

FF

 

[Jake]

Some of us, yes. Some of us do not. But it is clear that God has chosen the lowly rich in faith. Being lowly, and by this circumstance receiving a greater faith so that it be of God, is therefore no reason to boast.

Believers are called, drawn whatever it is you want to call it, but we also have to reciprocate, by joining in and participating with Him, through faith and obedience.
The only free will we have is the will of the Father, our will is His, and only then is it free, but we do have free choice.
The Will is causing something to happen, and only the Father has the ability to know what the consequences will be when that so called Will takes place, however, we do have a choice, and this choice is what gets us into trouble or not.

 

[childeye]

Believers are called, drawn whatever it is you want to call it, but we also have to reciprocate, by joining in and participating with Him, through faith and obedience.
The only free will we have is the will of the Father, our will is His, and only then is it free, but we do have free choice.
The Will is causing something to happen, and only the Father has the ability to know what the consequences will be when that so called Will takes place, however, we do have a choice, and this choice is what gets us into trouble or not.

I agree the only true freedom is in the service of the Father, but I do not find a free choice as accurate. There is only One True God, so it is we must come to learn there is no option. I, like you once felt that way, but the older I get the more I see. Knowledge of God is everything. Therefore there are many mistakes in counting the choice to believe in Christ as a free choice and obedience a man's prerogative. For example; the parable of the tares would go like this. The servants came to the master saying, didn't you plant good seed? And the master said, no the problem is that I gave them the ability to deny me and now they are all choosing to become tares. Also, Jesus said, who do you say I am? Peter answered you are the Christ. Jesus then said flesh and blood has revealed this to you as you have a freewill. This of course is not what these scriptures are saying. Jesus said no man can come to me unless it is given by my Father, and he said the tares were planted by Satan, and he said this for a reason. So yes we make choices, we have brains, but as there is only One True God, that doesn't mean much without knowledge of Him.

Quite clearly, the scriptures even say that the true servants of God would be persecuted and even killed by those who sincerely believed they were the ones serving God. This throws the declared free choice to serve God right out the window. Who can choose God when they don't even know Him? Knowledge of God is everything, and it comes by revelation. God hides it from those who have insincere motives so as to Lord such knowledge over others and serve our own carnal egos. Free choice makes men appear to be free moral agents which gives merit to those egos through a pseudo obedience that is not altruistic. It was therefore somewhat bruising to my pride to discover that men are not in control like we think we are, but the humility has served me well, especially since I learned that Satan is the king over the children of pride. Of course we reciprocate upon seeing the Truth, like it's not hard for a billionaire to find a girl who is willing to marry him. The problem is finding one who won't marry him for his money. Let me finish by saying that those who really know God will do the dirty work that needs to be done, and they will do it out of a pure Love and not for any personal gain.

 

[childeye]

Hi patience7, I too am new to this site, and I'm not worried if others go easy on me or not, but I am in full agreement with what you have brought to the table. We absolutely have a choice to make, and even though God knows what we will decide, He does not force us to make the decisions we make.

We are not robots, and that is why God gave us a brain, to reason for our selves. The calling is most definitely from God, but the rest is up to us. He will only call for so long and then begins to harden the heart.

What is it to harden the heart? It is to commit the will or mind against the claims of God and of humanity. To harden the heart is to commit the soul in a spirit of disobedience, and self-will, and stubbornness, against God and his government.

"Wherefore, as the Holy Ghost saith, To-day if ye will hear his voice, ßharden not your hearts."--Hebrews 3: 7,8

God Bless,

FF

The spirit of disobedience, self will, stubborness, against God and his government you speak of is Satanic in nature and it is he who rules in people through deception. The works of your Father you will do Jesus said. So it is that the Truth sets you free from the slavery of Satan's lies.

We all were obedient to Satan at some point so I personally count it disingenuous to say I freely chose Christ when in fact I attended church and didn't even know what a Christ is. Only when I discovered that the True Image of God washed away the false image did I understand. And so it is that anyone who has a false image of God is not free in their wills to serve God since they don't even know Him. Because we are made in His Image we become what ever image of Him we believe in. That image becomes our absolute by which we reason upon. That is why the carnal mind cannot be subject to God. Read the scripture Romans chapter one. We made god into an image as unto corruptible man.

Now it will be said we freely choose Christ when scripture does not say that. Scripture says that all who have learned from the Father comes to me. Jesus said only with the word of God in your hearts does one believe in the Christ. Scripture says he came lowly of stature and there was nothing in his visage that we should esteem him. And Jesus said flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but only my Father in heaven. The only true freewill is one that sees the Truth and is enslaved by it. The Gospel resists the proud and therefore makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind.

You may think we are not robots, but scripture says we are like clay in the Potters hand and that God could make children out of stones. The axe should not boast against the hand that wields it. So what is this stubborn pride in the axe that steals the glory of the hand that wields it? Vanity.

 

[Eventide]

Yes, to me His Person in the Image of the Christ is irresistable and worthy to live and die for in all honesty. I don't even count myself saved, for therein is my hope and hope is a good thing. As for others, this is why we preach the Gospel in hopes that men might be saved. Why won't everyone be saved? Perhaps they don't find Him irresistable, but to me if some men are not saved, they just don't see the Truth or won't recieve it. For as I hope you know the Gospel resists the proud and invites the lowly. God looks down from heaven and He sees a little boy digging in the trash. And upon finding a crust of bread, he at once rejoices and thanks God. At the same time on earth a man walks out of his office building and upon finding a scratch in his brand new Porsche, he immediately curses God.

C A L V I N I S M as usual..

And obviously you could not answer the simple question which I asked.

 

[patience7]

Hello patience. There are many definitions of freewill. If you are equating the act of choosing or deciding as a free will I would concede we decide and choose as we have brains capable of conscious decision and the ability to follow through with freedom of action in most cases. But if you then change that definition to mean we freely choose, we must evaluate further which is the point of this thread. Believing I would not categorize as a free choice for I surmise if you are like me, I cannot choose not to believe in the Christ. I see no greater act of Love that can be performed wherein I could place my trust. Moreover it is clear in scripture that God chose the lowly rich in faith to put to not the high things. This may sound silly to do this to some, but not to me. God who is no respector of persons has done this so that men will not be able to boast. Hence He destroys the wisdom of this world because His foolishness is greater than the wisdom of this world. So while I have decided to believe in the Christ, it is my testimony that I have received revelation from God so as to believe whereas before I did not know what to believe. And this is not my right to boast in choosing, since I am of poor means and lowly stature in society and these cicumstances made the Gospel inviting to me and Good News, while the Gospel resists the proud or is it the proud resist the Gospel?

free will - the freedom to have the mental power to decide and control what you do; a desire; a chosen decision; determination to do something

I used my freedom to make a chosen decision to believe in Christ after I heard the word of God. (Romans 10:17) And now that I have chosen to believe in Christ; your right I cannot not believe in Christ.

 

[patience7]

I want you to know that the term free applied in front of will offers the possibility of it's counterpart, slavery so as to make the distinction. So, objectively they are both relative, but to what? left is right to one who is facing you, but which way is the west for I keep going forever and never get there. I was heading south but eventually I ended up going North. All things are relative to an absolute. Scripture says whom you obey is your master. What is freedom from God is servitude to sin, What is servitude to God is freedom from sin. No edification in arguing semantics.

We all inherit sin through Adam according to scripture. If we go back to the first man we do not find that God gave him a choice regarding eating of the tree of knowledge. God never said to man he could disobey Him for He is the absolute. It was in fact Satan who proposed we had a choice, hence he said we could disobey and not die. In this sense freedom became a temptation only viable through a corrupt image of God.

For Satan said, God does not want you to eat, because He knows if you eat, your eyes will be open and you will be like Gods. Hence to the innocent, who had no knowledge of guile, an image of God was sown in their minds, that was of a self-serving God, who would sacrifice others for Himself. Being deceived by this most cunning of God's creatures, they believed, or rather unbelieved, and ate.

Now some will claim that because there was an option, we could have said no to Satan. The mind that thinks thus misses the point; that the mistake was that we accepted a corrupt image of God and traded in what was Holy for what was not. This is what fascilitated disobedience. And this was possible because we did not know what Holiness was when we had it. Regardless, we now all die and have sin even as God who was ever true had said would happen. Our minds being corrupted, the will cannot be free. If one now claims he has no sin, he is a liar.

For this reason Jesus said the Truth will set you free. Free from what? we are slaves to no one they answered. Whosoever sins is a slave to sin, Jesus said. And then this Jesus, this Christ, who is the True Image of God even as the only begotten of the Father climbed onto his cross and revealed the eternal loving trustworthiness of Gods nature. And there he sacrificed himself for us saying, forgive them Father for they know not what they do.

Now if we eat this bread from heaven, if we believe that this is the nature of God, though I cannot fathom any reason why anyone would not want to believe this, then it is a good thing He is self-serving, according to His perpetually perfect nature. Consequently it is a good thing to serve Him, for whoever serves Him, in truth serves himself. There is nothing wrong with slavery to God except to the corrupt mind. But the pure mind desires only to serve Him. Please be not offended in me, or be offended if you must, for many were offended by God's Christ, even because he revealed our own wicked depravity.

He is the only true light that shines in the darkness we are in. For this reason, the children of God are born out of corruption. So that they can grow towards God forever and love Him with all their hearts ,minds, and souls. Unfortunately for man, we often must believe in evil before we believe in good. The only freewill is one that sees the Truth, and is enslaved by it. To believe we can choose to not obey God is our vanity, and our destuction.

Whom you obey is your master - Still is your choice on whom you will obey. When we are told to Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil . . . . (James 4:7) To submit myself to God is a choice that I make - then I have also made the choice to resist the devil.

Adam and Eve had a perfect, one on one relationship with God. They daily walked and talked with Him so they knew Him. Then entered the serpent (satan) - Now a choice has entered the picture. Do they believe what God told them or do they believe what Satan told them? We know the answer.

We do choose to obey God. Although this is from the Old Testament and although we are not under the law with the new covenant; we still daily have to make the choice - walk in the Spirit or walk by the flesh -

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

It's God's will that none perish but that all shall come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) That's God's will - but since He has allowed men to make the choice - there will be some that will perish or else everyone would be a believer and we know that that is not the case.

 

[Elijah674]

Whom you obey is your master - Still is your choice on whom you will obey. When we are told to Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil . . . . (James 4:7) To submit myself to God is a choice that I make - then I have also made the choice to resist the devil.

Adam and Eve had a perfect, one on one relationship with God. They daily walked and talked with Him so they knew Him. Then entered the serpent (satan) - Now a choice has entered the picture. Do they believe what God told them or do they believe what Satan told them? We know the answer.

We do choose to obey God. Although this is from the Old Testament and although we are not under the law with the new covenant; we still daily have to make the choice - walk in the Spirit or walk by the flesh -

Deuteronomy 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deuteronomy 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

It's God's will that none perish but that all shall come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9) That's God's will - but since He has allowed men to make the choice - there will be some that will perish or else everyone would be a believer and we know that that is not the case.

Very well done. Another question arises in free/will. That of WORKS. Usally the caned robot teaching ones of osas also have works tossed out. Yet when you read these forums, which class of the two are constantly chanting OSAS WITH NO WORKS, and drive us buggy working! See Gen. 4:7

--Elijah

 

[FrustratedForumer]

The spirit of disobedience, self will, stubborness, against God and his government you speak of is Satanic in nature and it is he who rules in people through deception. The works of your Father you will do Jesus said. So it is that the Truth sets you free from the slavery of Satan's lies.

We all were obedient to Satan at some point so I personally count it disingenuous to say I freely chose Christ when in fact I attended church and didn't even know what a Christ is. Only when I discovered that the True Image of God washed away the false image did I understand. And so it is that anyone who has a false image of God is not free in their wills to serve God since they don't even know Him. Because we are made in His Image we become what ever image of Him we believe in. That image becomes our absolute by which we reason upon. That is why the carnal mind cannot be subject to God. Read the scripture Romans chapter one. We made god into an image as unto corruptible man.

Now it will be said we freely choose Christ when scripture does not say that. Scripture says that all who have learned from the Father comes to me. Jesus said only with the word of God in your hearts does one believe in the Christ. Scripture says he came lowly of stature and there was nothing in his visage that we should esteem him. And Jesus said flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but only my Father in heaven. The only true freewill is one that sees the Truth and is enslaved by it. The Gospel resists the proud and therefore makes the blind seeing and the seeing blind.

You may think we are not robots, but scripture says we are like clay in the Potters hand and that God could make children out of stones. The axe should not boast against the hand that wields it. So what is this stubborn pride in the axe that steals the glory of the hand that wields it? Vanity.

That's some pretty hefty accusations there, wow! This must be freewill in action?

 

[Jake]

I agree the only true freedom is in the service of the Father, but I do not find a free choice as accurate. There is only One True God, so it is we must come to learn there is no option. I, like you once felt that way, but the older I get the more I see. Knowledge of God is everything. Therefore there are many mistakes in counting the choice to believe in Christ as a free choice and obedience a man's prerogative. For example; the parable of the tares would go like this. The servants came to the master saying, didn't you plant good seed? And the master said, no the problem is that I gave them the ability to deny me and now they are all choosing to become tares. Also, Jesus said, who do you say I am? Peter answered you are the Christ. Jesus then said flesh and blood has revealed this to you as you have a freewill. This of course is not what these scriptures are saying. Jesus said no man can come to me unless it is given by my Father, and he said the tares were planted by Satan, and he said this for a reason. So yes we make choices, we have brains, but as there is only One True God, that doesn't mean much without knowledge of Him.

Quite clearly, the scriptures even say that the true servants of God would be persecuted and even killed by those who sincerely believed they were the ones serving God. This throws the declared free choice to serve God right out the window. Who can choose God when they don't even know Him? Knowledge of God is everything, and it comes by revelation. God hides it from those who have insincere motives so as to Lord such knowledge over others and serve our own carnal egos. Free choice makes men appear to be free moral agents which gives merit to those egos through a pseudo obedience that is not altruistic. It was therefore somewhat bruising to my pride to discover that men are not in control like we think we are, but the humility has served me well, especially since I learned that Satan is the king over the children of pride. Of course we reciprocate upon seeing the Truth, like it's not hard for a billionaire to find a girl who is willing to marry him. The problem is finding one who won't marry him for his money. Let me finish by saying that those who really know God will do the dirty work that needs to be done, and they will do it out of a pure Love and not for any personal gain.

Man does believe they have more control than they really do, however we do have free choice and your description really does leave one believing you believe we are pawns in a chess game, I disagree with that. We have free choice, we can choose to walk away from God!
Even Mark Driscoll is not as extreme as this and he is the biggest calvinist preacher out there right now - at least he tells his congregation that "some of you are going to hell", which would more than likely be the truth as his audience is internationally large.

We are conforming to Christ, that would not happen w/out our participation, we are dying to the cross daily, if you leave out the action verbs that God told us to do, then you are ignoring much of the gospel and you are not actively dying to ourself nor are you actively carrying your cross.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“We all were obedient to Satan at some point so I personally count it disingenuous to say I freely chose Christ when in fact I attended church and didn't even know what a Christ is. Only when I discovered that the True Image of God washed away the false image did I understand. And so it is that anyone who has a false image of God is not free in their wills to serve God since they don't even know Him. Because we are made in His Image we become what ever image of Him we believe in. That image becomes our absolute by which we reason upon. That is why the carnal mind cannot be subject to God. Read the scripture Romans chapter one. We made god into an image as unto corruptible man.â€

This is such a perfect example of the practice of interpretation that I couldn’t pass it up. I can only wonder if someone is holding the interpretation lens between you and your Bible or you’re holding it yourself.

Romans 1:18-25 (KJV) is very clearly describing a certain class of people. It is a class of people that are seen today, especially in Christianity, the man-made religion.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousnessâ€

These people are holding the truth in unrighteousness. Paul goes on to explain exactly what he is talking about. He tended to be very good about that. No doubt because what he wrote was under the direction of the Holy Spirit. People knock the idea of a dictated Bible. But to me, a God-breathed Bible is pretty much a dictated Bible. And to me, Jesus Christ as the living teacher of the Bible makes it even more than dictated. He makes it alive to those who walk by the Holy Spirit in their human spirit. He makes the Bible living in our experience. Not the Bible alone as the Protestants are so fond of saying. But the Bible through the teaching of the living Christ, through the conduit of the living Holy Spirit who resides in our human spirit.

“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.â€

God showed them that which may be known of God. God clearly revealed to them what can be known of the nature of God.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:â€

The invisible things of God are and have been clearly seen since the creation of the world. They are so clearly seen that these people are without excuse.

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.â€

What does it clearly say? “when they knew Godâ€. These are people who knew God. Yet they “glorified him not as God, neither were they thankfulâ€. Doesn’t sound like a bunch of people who didn’t know what was going on to me. They “became vain in their imaginationsâ€. They began to imagine things that in fact didn’t exist. They interpreted the form of the Bible they had in front of them, that which is clearly seen. And in their interpretations, “their foolish heart was darkenedâ€.

“Professing themselves to be wise, they became foolsâ€.

These people in their interpretations thought they were wise. They not only thought they were wise, but they professed the same, they claimed that they were wise to everyone around them. And in doing so “they became foolsâ€, they showed themselves to be fools, they showed their foolishness to everyone around them.

“And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.â€

And in the foolishness of their own interpretations, of their own imaginations, they changed the image of God into a human image, even into sub-human images. What did God do in response to these interpretations? Did he come down and take some of these interpreters of reality and force them to believe the truth? Did he even come down and reveal more evidence to them of the truth?

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:â€

God gave them up, gave them up to “to uncleanness through the lusts of their own heartsâ€. He gave them up to what they desired, the fruit of their own interpretations, their own imaginations.

“Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.â€

Gave them up, these people who knew the truth and changed the truth of God into a lie. They not only changed the truth of God into a lie, they worshipped and served the creation more than the Creator. And God, rather than force them to believe something against their will, gave them up. They made a choice to do what they did, and God didn’t come down and choose among them who would be Elect, Justified, Saved, whatever. He gave them up. Thanks be to God, that when man-kind fell, he didn’t give them up. Rather, he provided a way of Salvation in Christ, the only, only, begotten Son of God.

Don’t think that can’t happen to Christians because it’s happening all the time. There are literally thousands of interpretations in Christianity today. And God has done nothing to cause repentance, to cause a change of mind, concerning these interpretations. God has given the Christians of Christianity up. He allows them to suffer the consequences of their determination to interpret the Bible. He allows them to continue in their division as He has for centuries. And they do so today more than ever before. He allows them to grow deeper and deeper into their own imaginations, to the point that the Christians are so much like the world that one is hard put to discern who is truly in Christ today.

Romans 1:26: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affectionsâ€

God gave them up. You think that being in Adam and not knowing what is going on is the worst case scenario? What of knowing what is going on and changing it anyway? Of having the truth right in front of you, in a written document, and the living Christ to show you precisely what the Bible is saying, and changing it anyway through the practice of interpretation? Don’t you think that is even worse? Yet that’s precisely what’s happening in Christianity today. Even to the point that there are Christians who are professing homosexuals.

The rest of verse 26 reads,

“for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against natureâ€.

And verse 27,

“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one towar another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.â€

FC

 

[Former Christian]

Rockie

I’m very sorry to say these things in front of you. I know that you still hold Christianity in high regard. But I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. Has been since its beginning. And those who are truly in Christ have bought into it for two millennia. Even I bought into it for years. I don’t kick myself for having been deceived for so long, because I had a lot of good company. But I now know and believe that Christianity does not portray or represent what the Bible is truly saying, what Jesus Christ is revealing through the Bible. The above post to Childeye reveals partly why I believe as I do. And why I call myself a

Former Christian

 

[Jake]

Rockie

I’m very sorry to say these things in front of you. I know that you still hold Christianity in high regard. But I believe that Christianity is a man-made religion. Has been since its beginning. And those who are truly in Christ have bought into it for two millennia. Even I bought into it for years. I don’t kick myself for having been deceived for so long, because I had a lot of good company. But I now know and believe that Christianity does not portray or represent what the Bible is truly saying, what Jesus Christ is revealing through the Bible. The above post to Childeye reveals partly why I believe as I do. And why I call myself a

Former Christian

Like I said before, the Bible discerns us, not the other way around.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

“We all were obedient to Satan at some point so I personally count it disingenuous to say I freely chose Christ when in fact I attended church and didn't even know what a Christ is. Only when I discovered that the True Image of God washed away the false image did I understand. And so it is that anyone who has a false image of God is not free in their wills to serve God since they don't even know Him. Because we are made in His Image we become what ever image of Him we believe in. That image becomes our absolute by which we reason upon. That is why the carnal mind cannot be subject to God. Read the scripture Romans chapter one. We made god into an image as unto corruptible man.”

This is such a perfect example of the practice of interpretation that I couldn’t pass it up. I can only wonder if someone is holding the interpretation lens between you and your Bible or you’re holding it yourself.

Romans 1:18-25 (KJV) is very clearly describing a certain class of people. It is a class of people that are seen today, especially in Christianity, the man-made religion.

“For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness”

These people are holding the truth in unrighteousness. Paul goes on to explain exactly what he is talking about. He tended to be very good about that. No doubt because what he wrote was under the direction of the Holy Spirit. People knock the idea of a dictated Bible. But to me, a God-breathed Bible is pretty much a dictated Bible. And to me, Jesus Christ as the living teacher of the Bible makes it even more than dictated. He makes it alive to those who walk by the Holy Spirit in their human spirit. He makes the Bible living in our experience. Not the Bible alone as the Protestants are so fond of saying. But the Bible through the teaching of the living Christ, through the conduit of the living Holy Spirit who resides in our human spirit.

“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.”

God showed them that which may be known of God. God clearly revealed to them what can be known of the nature of God.

“For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:”

The invisible things of God are and have been clearly seen since the creation of the world. They are so clearly seen that these people are without excuse.

“Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.”

What does it clearly say? “when they knew God”. These are people who knew God. Yet they “glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful”. Doesn’t sound like a bunch of people who didn’t know what was going on to me. They “became vain in their imaginations”. They began to imagine things that in fact didn’t exist. They interpreted the form of the Bible they had in front of them, that which is clearly seen. And in their interpretations, “their foolish heart was darkened”.

“Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools”.

These people in their interpretations thought they were wise. They not only thought they were wise, but they professed the same, they claimed that they were wise to everyone around them. And in doing so “they became fools”, they showed themselves to be fools, they showed their foolishness to everyone around them.

“And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.”

And in the foolishness of their own interpretations, of their own imaginations, they changed the image of God into a human image, even into sub-human images. What did God do in response to these interpretations? Did he come down and take some of these interpreters of reality and force them to believe the truth? Did he even come down and reveal more evidence to them of the truth?

“Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:”

God gave them up, gave them up to “to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts”. He gave them up to what they desired, the fruit of their own interpretations, their own imaginations.

“Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.”

Gave them up, these people who knew the truth and changed the truth of God into a lie. They not only changed the truth of God into a lie, they worshipped and served the creation more than the Creator. And God, rather than force them to believe something against their will, gave them up. They made a choice to do what they did, and God didn’t come down and choose among them who would be Elect, Justified, Saved, whatever. He gave them up. Thanks be to God, that when man-kind fell, he didn’t give them up. Rather, he provided a way of Salvation in Christ, the only, only, begotten Son of God.

Don’t think that can’t happen to Christians because it’s happening all the time. There are literally thousands of interpretations in Christianity today. And God has done nothing to cause repentance, to cause a change of mind, concerning these interpretations. God has given the Christians of Christianity up. He allows them to suffer the consequences of their determination to interpret the Bible. He allows them to continue in their division as He has for centuries. And they do so today more than ever before. He allows them to grow deeper and deeper into their own imaginations, to the point that the Christians are so much like the world that one is hard put to discern who is truly in Christ today.

Romans 1:26: “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections”

God gave them up. You think that being in Adam and not knowing what is going on is the worst case scenario? What of knowing what is going on and changing it anyway? Of having the truth right in front of you, in a written document, and the living Christ to show you precisely what the Bible is saying, and changing it anyway through the practice of interpretation? Don’t you think that is even worse? Yet that’s precisely what’s happening in Christianity today. Even to the point that there are Christians who are professing homosexuals.

The rest of verse 26 reads,

“for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature”.

And verse 27,

“And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

FC

Dear FC, You have made one error in your otherwsie pretty good commentary. Romans one is refering to all men when God talks about suppressing the Truth in unrighteousness. Hence Romans two says there is no excuse for any man who judges another because you yourself are guilty of the same things. A true Christian is a child of God who is possessed of the Spirit of God. You are in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

When Paul says in Romans one there is no excuse because God has shown them he is refering to the attributes of God declaring the Godhead. He is talking about taking God for granted. As in one cannot count himself greater than his master.