Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[childeye]

Why do you say that this refers to all men? You’re the one who says that people are deceived, that it’s not their fault. Paul clearly says that these people aren’t deceived, that they know the truth, and that they deserve what they get.

Please quit misrepresenting me by taking my words out of context.

You read "there is no excuse" and think we are not deceived. As Truth is self evident and therefore undeniable that does not mean men cannot be decieved by Satan or beguiled or blinded. Why do you think Christ said the Truth is able to set people free? Is not the Truth setting people free from lies? Was Saul not blinded and then given sight after scales fell from his eyes and he became Paul. The Truth is not impotent. And Jesus said the Truth shall set you free indicating we are believing lies, so why do you claim I'm the one who says people are deceived? The apostles said men are deceived also. The bible says the devil decieved the whole world. Read Romans one again. It says God gives some over to a reprobate mind so as to not even consider God. Is this mind seeing the truth?

I believe the fault is that we find fault. I think you are implying I am saying people have done nothing wrong. Do you remeber this post?

I didn't say we should not ask for forgivness and I didn't say we didn't do anything. I'm saying if you ask for forgivness and don't know what you did, how can you be truly sorry? Adam and Eve distrusted God and so does everyone that believes Satan's lie that there is an option to God. The only way to willingly disobey God is to not trust Him which is a personal attack. We did not esteem Him as God. We are all guilty of it. I've said it in other posts and I'm saying it now. By the way, has anybody said I'm sorry for this to God. Sorry because we were to take his Holy image and corrupt it by believing He would ever not have our interests in mind and keep us down. But Oh nooo. We are apoligizing for meaning to do it because we have a freewill and we're taking responsibility for our actions. I wonder what God thinks
about these two different apologies? One of them is vanity.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“You read "there is no excuse" and think we are not deceived.â€

When I read "they are without excuse", I think " they are without excuse ". When I read “when they knew God, they glorified him not as Godâ€; I think “when they knew God, they glorified him not as Godâ€.

I don’t try to read into the Bible something from out of my own imagination that isn’t there. The story is good enough to me in its own right that I don’t feel the need to change or embellish it.


“As Truth is self evident and therefore undeniable that does not mean men cannot be decieved by Satan or beguiled or blinded.â€

Then how can we know that the “truth†in the Bible isn’t a deception of Satan? How do we know, even if the Bible is true, that how we understand it isn’t a deception of Satan? Do we trust in something with historical value, like “The One True Churchâ€, the Church that had its beginning with Christ who built it, the Church with the true Apostolic lineage and the true Apostolic doctrine, like the Roman Catholic Church?


“Why do you think Christ said the Truth is able to set people free? Is not the Truth setting people free from lies?â€

John 8:31-36 (the following in KJV):

31 “Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeedâ€

Said to Jews who apparently believed him. If they stay in his word:

32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you freeâ€

And then the Jews asked the obvious question, freedom from what?

33 “They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?â€

To which Jesus answered:

“Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.†(vss. 34-36)

This is Romans 1-8 in a nutshell.

“The bondage of sin is the most grievous bondage; and freedom from its guilt and influence is the greatest liberty.†Adam Clarke

Freedom....not from lies, but from sin itself.

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.†(Rom 8:2)

Not a matter of people being able to do nothing but sin like bad little robots, but people caught in the bondage of sin. Jesus came to free us from the bondage of sin. I realize that Calvinists believe that to be a servant of sin automatically implies constancy in sin and an impossibility to know the truth. But that isn’t any more true than those who are in Christ never sinning and always knowing the truth.

Then Jesus says something that seems totally out of place. Didn’t John just say that these were disciples who believed in his words? But now he has Jesus say:

37 “I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.â€

Well then, which is it? Are these people really disciples? Do these people really believe what Jesus says? Will they stay in the word of Jesus? Tune in next week as Jesus reveals something important about these Jews. Or you can simply read it yourself if you’re interested. And try not to read into it more than is there.


“Was Saul not blinded and then given sight after scales fell from his eyes and he became Paul.â€

Why do you change the story into something it isn’t? Paul was a Pharisee. He was doing what he was doing because he was a Pharisee. Much like you say certain things because you are a Calvinist.

When Jesus came and revealed the truth to Saul, Saul agreed with what Jesus told him. Yes, Saul became Paul. He changed from Saul “the desired one†into Paul “the little oneâ€. There is no evidence that Jesus changed his name. He changed it himself as a sign of how he now felt about himself (1 Cor 15:9). Has the scales falling from the eyes of Paul become an allegory to you, one which Paul didn’t use himself?


“Read Romans one again. It says God gives some over to a reprobate mind so as to not even consider God. Is this mind seeing the truth?â€

Ro 1:28 “And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenientâ€

In your view it refers to everyone. But the context doesn’t say that. It refers only to those who knew the truth and then denied it. People who “did not like to retain God in their knowledgeâ€. These people knew God. They knew the truth. Not all know God or the truth. And not all who know God and the truth, then deny it. You are taking Romans 1-3 and giving it a meaning that isn’t there.


“I didn't say we should not ask for forgivness and I didn't say we didn't do anything. I'm saying if you ask for forgivness and don't know what you did, how can you be truly sorry? Adam and Eve distrusted God and so does everyone that believes Satan's lie that there is an option to God. The only way to willingly disobey God is to not trust Him which is a personal attack. We did not esteem Him as God. We are all guilty of it. I've said it in other posts and I'm saying it now. By the way, has anybody said I'm sorry for this to God. Sorry because we were to take his Holy image and corrupt it by believing He would ever not have our interests in mind and keep us down. But Oh nooo. We are apoligizing for meaning to do it because we have a freewill and we're taking responsibility for our actions.â€

I guess perfect people haven’t much to remember as far as their sins. As for me I sin constantly because I’m still in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Haven’t come close yet as near as I can tell. And most of the time I only remember a small percentage of the sins I commit during the day. So I pray, “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.â€

And some are very conformed to the image of Christ. A conformity that even Paul didn’t claim for himself (Phil 3).

Adam and Eve didn’t distrust God. Nowhere does the Bible say that they did. Eve was deceived and Adam followed his wife and thus was in the transgression. Now Cain, there was the one who distrusted God. He didn’t even trust God enough to bring the right sacrifice.

When I sin it isn’t because I distrust God. It’s because I walk by the flesh instead of the Spirit. If I distrusted God, I wouldn’t bother to confess my sins and sinfulness, nor attempt to walk by the Spirit. What would be the point if I didn’t trust God to forgive my sins and let me experience the fruit of the Spirit?

I suppose there are those who sin not meaning to. And I suppose they will point to Romans 7 as evidence of this. When I sin, it certainly is with meaning to sin. I don’t sin behind my own back, nor can I fool myself. I usually know what I’m doing when I do it. Most often, not only am I convicted of sin by the Spirit, but by my own conscience. I know you think that I’m not even a brother, and surely my experience bears that out to a Calvinist. But I still hope in Christ as my Justification, in spite of your judgment. Because I still believe that your judgment isn’t the judgment of God.


“I wonder what God thinks about these two different apologies? One of them is vanity.â€

You’re right there.


For a time I agreed with some Calvinists. And was fooled into thinking I wasn’t saved.

I wanted to be saved. But I was told I hadn’t achieved that as yet. Why? I did everything required. I believed in Christ. I got baptized. I Read my Bible faithfully. I went to church regularly. The whole shebang. Yet I still wasn’t saved. Why? Because I didn’t agree with all the doctrines, and I still had sin in my life. To sin once in a while is OK. But if I have habitual sins, even though I fight them, I’m not yet saved (their interpretation of 1 John 3:9). I should get on my knees and give myself more wholeheartedly to God and to Christ. I should conform my thinking to the truth of the Bible (as they interpreted it). And I should really believe in Christ, not just enough to get me out of hell (their words, not mine).

Well, I get on my knees and pray alright. I get on my knees and pray, I won’t be fooled again.

FC

 

[childeye]

Then how can we know that the “truth†in the Bible isn’t a deception of Satan? How do we know, even if the Bible is true, that how we understand it isn’t a deception of Satan?

Truth is self evident and is Spirit. The bible only testifies to the Word but is not the Word of itelf. In other words you don't need the bible to know the Truth.

Not a matter of people being able to do nothing but sin like bad little robots, but people caught in the bondage of sin.

There's no difference between bondage and not being able to not sin.

Then Jesus says something that seems totally out of place. Didn’t John just say that these were disciples who believed in his words? But now he has Jesus say:

I didn't write it. I didn't translate it. There are many such apparrant inconsistencies in scripture. As I said, I don't need the bible to know the Truth of Christ. I need only the Holy Spirit that comes in his name.

“Was Saul not blinded and then given sight after scales fell from his eyes and he became Paul.â€

Why do you change the story into something it isn’t? Paul was a Pharisee. He was doing what he was doing because he was a Pharisee. Much like you say certain things because you are a Calvinist.

You certainly are consistent with this calvinist thing, although I am not a Calvinist. I didn't change the story. I was using scripture to point out there is blindness and deception and seeing and Truth; and that these govern a man's reasoning. That is self-evident to me. Either a man sees or he doesn't. I went to God for sight in Jesus' name and He gave it to me. This does not mean I count myself saved. I hope in my salvation and I like hoping. I trust God that He knows what He is doing.

“Read Romans one again. It says God gives some over to a reprobate mind so as to not even consider God. Is this mind seeing the truth?â€

In your view it refers to everyone. But the context doesn’t say that. It refers only to those who knew the truth and then denied it. People who “did not like to retain God in their knowledgeâ€. These people knew God. They knew the truth. Not all know God or the truth. And not all who know God and the truth, then deny it. You are taking Romans 1-3 and giving it a meaning that isn’t there.

FC, Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden and knew Him yet did not glorify Him as God. Notice Romans 1:19 says the things that can be known of God are manifest in them for God has shown it to them. Here Paul is talking about His eternal Godhead. He's saying we knew perfectly well, He is in charge of all things. Yet we did not esteem Him as God. We did not glorify Him as God but were unthankful and became vain. As I've said, we take God for granted. How many here think it is there prerogative to choose to Love God or not? Now look at my apology to God. That we took His holy name and defamed Him by ever thinking He would not have our best interests at heart.
Moreover, you are misunderstanding what I said. Notice when I said all men did this, I meant that Paul was refering to all mankind as a whole and not meant to incude those such as the prophets or Enoch. Paul often says men who did such and such and refering to all. And what did we do? Not esteem God as God. We hold down the Truth of His righteousness in unrighteousness, and regard His providence as our prerogative. Note Romans says we were not thankful and counted ouselves wise and traded in the Truth for a lie, for we traded in the Image of the Holy God for a corruptible one.
Then notice, I said some were given over to a reprobate mind, not all. You then conflate the two and think I have contradicted myself.

I guess perfect people haven’t much to remember as far as their sins. As for me I sin constantly because I’m still in the process of being conformed to the image of Christ. Haven’t come close yet as near as I can tell. And most of the time I only remember a small percentage of the sins I commit during the day. So I pray, “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.â€
And some are very conformed to the image of Christ. A conformity that even Paul didn’t claim for himself (Phil 3).

And so what? I'm supposed to take this as you meaning to say I am self-righteous? I do not condemn others for their sin FC, in case you havn't noticed. I have over and over included myself in all manner of ignorance that have befallen men. I have said over and over we will all be saved by mercy. I love humility and to think higher of everyone else. Are you jealous of that? You should be.

Adam and Eve didn’t distrust God.

They trusted Satan over God, FC. They therefore by default distrusted God.

When I sin it isn’t because I distrust God. It’s because I walk by the flesh instead of the Spirit.

I agree with this, the flesh is hardwired enmity with God , however sin has no dominion when under grace. If you believe you are righteous or unrighteous because you decide to be, you already distrust God who says righteousness is by faith.

I don't count my sins everyday. They are the same all the time. There is somebody poor homeless and hungry while I have a home and a full belly. Never do I walk away from that realization lest I walk away from God.

I know you think that I’m not even a brother, and surely my experience bears that out to a Calvinist. But I still hope in Christ as my Justification, in spite of your judgment. Because I still believe that your judgment isn’t the judgment of God. For a time I agreed with some Calvinists. And was fooled into thinking I wasn’t saved.

So now comes out the reason for your misplaced angst at me. That's fine with me. Perhaps it is some pennance I must endure for someone I did the same to in the past. I bless you with all my heart FC, and no matter what you think of me, I love you in all sincerity and thank God for you, just the way you are.

FC, Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden and knew Him yet did not esteem Him as God. How I wish I could talk to you in person so I could respond directly to things you say. There are many things I would love to discuss that the format of a forum does not allow.

However I will address as best I can some of them. First and foremost I DO NOT PRESUME THAT YOU ARE NOT A BROTHER. If a thought like that popped into my mind it us not Christ, it is Satanic, and I would recognize it immediately. Why? Because to think that would not be serving the commandment to Love others as I would want to be Loved.

This Truth and the Truth that God is Love and there is no Spirit of Love without Him is all one needs to distinguish Truth from lies. The Truth sets one free from sin through not judging hypocritically and realizing we can only do what is good by grace. So if a man knows to esteem God as the Spirit of Love and as all that is good in man, you will love Him with all your heart mind and soul, and abiding in this Love you will love others as you would want to be Loved. That is all... that is it... So simple a child can understand. One does not need know scripture to know this.

You say the Truth is freedom not from lies but freedom from sin, when every sin performed is perpetrated upon a lie. Under grace sin has no power as it does under the law. So it is that mankind did not esteem God as God because they had a corruptible image of God in their imaginations. Read Romans one again. Please consider if you knew God was Love in your heart, if you could possibly believe you could make a graven image out of a piece of wood and honestly worship it as God? Yet men did do this stupid thing. And quit implying I am a Calvinist. I don't even know what that is.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Dethrones The Sovereignty of God in Salvation !

I believe that the teaching of Freewill dethrones the Sovereignty of God in ones Salvation, making the creatures will the deciding factor in Salvation, I believe that speaks to 2 Thess 2:4

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

[Sinthesis]

Re: Dethrones The Sovereignty of God in Salvation !

I believe that the teaching of Freewill dethrones the Sovereignty of God in ones Salvation, making the creatures will the deciding factor in Salvation, I believe that speaks to 2 Thess 2:4

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

How does surrendering to Jesus exalt oneself or show oneself they are equal to God?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Dethrones The Sovereignty of God in Salvation !

How does surrendering to Jesus exalt oneself or show oneself they are equal to God?

Good question... too bad he doesn't answer them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The freewill religionists in defiance to the Truth that Salvation is of God, that He alone determines to whom it shall be bestowed upon at His prerogative, the freewillers declare in essence that God has not determined anything regarding the effects of Christ saving death, but that those saving effects are determined by man's freewill, that its the will of man that has the final say ! That man has the power to either accept or refuse of Christ's saving work, and that they do as they please with Him ! That it is the freewill of man that determines if the death of Christ shall be effective in salvation or not ! What horrible blasphemies ! They, even after all Christ hath done to save sinners, that it is still up to the freewill of man to determine all or none,many or few shall be saved !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Dethrones The Sovereignty of God in Salvation !

How does surrendering to Jesus exalt oneself or show oneself they are equal to God?

If by surrendering to Jesus is the cause of one's salvation instead of the fruit of it, then yes, your surrender takes precedence over God or Christ" work determining salvation.

Its the blood of Christ alone that purges the sinner from dead works [ False Religion] unto serving the True and Living God ! Heb 9:14

14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Dethrones The Sovereignty of God in Salvation !

If by surrendering to Jesus is the cause of one's salvation instead of the fruit of it, then yes, your surrender takes precedence over God or Christ" work determining salvation.

This is simply not true, because God Himself set the conditions upon which His Saving grace is administered to all in Adam.. and that's by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth..

The Holy Spirit is active in convincing the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.. and He is that true light which lighteth every man that comes into the world..

That's the Spirit's work in calling all men to the obedience of the gospel.. and Paul sums up his preaching to the Gentile world in this.. repentance toward God and Faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ..

What must I do to be saved..?

a) Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..

b) Nothing..

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Admit you are a sinner

Believe that Jesus died on the cross for you

Confess with your mouth, repent, and ask for forgiveness

 

[Elijah674]

Admit you are a sinner

Believe that Jesus died on the cross for you

Confess with your mouth, repent, and ask for forgiveness

(My underlining above)
It is good that one on here understands that the Son Repented before God's Grace could be restored. The robe represents the Rightousness of Christ & the ring on the finger was no doubt representing full authority once again restored for SEALING inportant family matters. Es. 3:12

And yes, SURELY! No one will be saved & covered with Christ's Rightousness while living in open known unrepentant sin, no matter what they claim. (Matt. 7:22) And that claim of being 'in' Christ will be judged before Christ return's. Eccl. 12:13-14

I think that you were possibly thinking of the prodical son or the like example?

But most it seems have problems with loosing it & then having it restored. Perhaps that if that is their problem, then maybe it is that they have never been Born Again in the first place?

--Elijah

 

[savedbygrace57]

Ignores the Work of the Spirit !

The Man of sin, those preaching free-will" without question ignores the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit, who is God. These preachers proclaim what supposes to be the Atonement of Christ, then end up saying that it will be effective for you if you will believe or exercises your faith or now accept the atonement. This is making the free-will of man the deciding factor in one's salvation and not the Sovereign application work of the Spirit unto all whom the Atonement was made for and which God accepted at the hands of Christ. So the free-will of man preachers and believers ignore the Power of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

I think that you were possibly thinking of the prodical son or the like example?

Nope, and not sure what this would have to do with anything?

The Man of sin, those preaching free-will" without question ignores the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit, who is God. These preachers proclaim what supposes to be the Atonement of Christ, then end up saying that it will be effective for you if you will believe or exercises your faith or now accept the atonement. This is making the free-will of man the deciding factor in one's salvation and not the Sovereign application work of the Spirit unto all whom the Atonement was made for and which God accepted at the hands of Christ. So the free-will of man preachers and believers ignore the Power of the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost.

SBG, where is the grace in this and other respective post?

 

[childeye]

Upon reading what has been transpiring on this thread, I would like to address certain avenues of thought that confound the terms used. If freewill is defined as the ability to choose or deny God, it is contradictory in the outset and can only end in hypocrisy. The evidence shows that those who thought they were serving God persecuted those who also believe they are serving God. In the Old Testament God said, I put before you life or death, choose life. This presumes all men have the ability to not sin. I will call this freewill #1.

Yet in the New Testament, sin taking occasion of the Law rose up and deceived me, and through the Law slew me. This presumes we cannot not sin and are therefore in need of a savior.

Now it will be said again that men have the ability to choose or deny God presented through the Gospel of the Christ, the True Image of God. This presumes that all men have the ability to see and believe. I will call this freewill #2. Please note that freewill #1 denies freewill #2 and freewill #2 denies freewill #1.

It is not my intention to say we have no culpability but rather we are culpable according to how we hold others culpable. These two freewills persecute one another according to the same defined criteria for accountability, freewill. Yet they are both in hypocritical judgment and therefore self-condemning.

 

[Eventide]

What's your testimony..

So what's your testimony.. did you wake up one day and find that you were in Christ for doing absolutely nothing..?

Seriously.. I really don't understand how people think that this is 'reality'.. although evidently some here believe that there is nothing that you must do to be saved.

 

[Elijah674]

Re: What's your testimony..

So what's your testimony.. did you wake up one day and find that you were in Christ for doing absolutely nothing..?

Seriously.. I really don't understand how people think that this is 'reality'.. although evidently some here believe that there is nothing that you must do to be saved.

Heb. 13
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
[9] Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines ...'

And God? Mal. 3:6 has Him Documenting...
[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.


Eccl. 3:15 Holy Spirit's Inspiration Documents...
[15] That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.

So these ones who are today teaching only 'believe'ism' (as a friend calls them) have been around from Cain on, probably even had satan teaching the stuff in his rebellion in heaven! Matt. 25:1-2, & see Jude 1:3-13 & verse 12 has these ones TWICE DEAD! (meaning that to be twice dead, they had to be Born Again at on time! Rev. 20:14! )
Gen.6

[3] And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Most of these Rev. 17:1-5's ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH [Prophesied by Inspiration] churches have been around way way past the Striving of the Holy Spirits [[STRIVING]] with them to change their satanic teachings! And most Without a hint of them doing so. And take note that that is Rev. 17:1-5's Inspired of God Truth that says that they are [ALL] the Abomination of the earth!

And that teaching of OSAS will find probably as many in hell as does their mother's false teaching stuff. And that is just one of their many false doctrines!

--Elijah

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

“Truth is self evident and is Spirit. The bible only testifies to the Word but is not the Word of itelf. In other words you don't need the bible to know the Truth.â€

Interesting point of view coming from a Christian. Not even I am that radical. I wonder how one would deduce that “Jesus Christ is the way, truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father if not through him†without a Bible? Why even bother to be a Christian if truth can be known without the Bible? Surely it could be known as a Buddhist. Steven Seagal, a Buddhist I have a great deal of respect for due to his activism on behalf of the planet and those in need, gave his only reason why he chose Buddhism over Christianity. Christianity is too judgmental. And I for one can understand why he said that.


“There's no difference between bondage and not being able to not sin.â€

There’s a great deal of difference. Being under bondage to sin doesn’t mean that one has to sin. It is controlled by people all the time. It’s the difference between a Hitler and an Aristotle. Being under bondage to sin only means that the flesh is actively exerting pressure to sin. Everyone sins, but not all the time. Everyone sins, but not in the same way. Everyone sins, but not to the same degree.


“I didn't write it. I didn't translate it. There are many such apparrant inconsistencies in scripture. As I said, I don't need the bible to know the Truth of Christ. I need only the Holy Spirit that comes in his name.â€

I acknowledge the obvious discrepancies in the Bible. But I also acknowledge the obvious value of the Bible to those who are in Christ. To those who aren’t in Christ, the discrepancies take precedence. Whose side are you on?


“Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden and knew Him yet did not glorify Him as God.....FC, Adam and Eve walked with God in the Garden and knew Him yet did not esteem Him as God.â€

If that’s the way you wish to see it.


“I love humility and to think higher of everyone else. Are you jealous of that? You should be.â€

Why should I be jealous of your pride in your humility?


“I agree with this, the flesh is hardwired enmity with God , however sin has no dominion when under grace. If you believe you are righteous or unrighteous because you decide to be, you already distrust God who says righteousness is by faith.â€

You take the Christianity view, that we are made righteous by our exercise of faith. I know of no one who holds we are made righteous by our own choice or decision to be so. Neither is my view.


“I know you think that I’m not even a brother, and surely my experience bears that out to a Calvinist. But I still hope in Christ as my Justification, in spite of your judgment. Because I still believe that your judgment isn’t the judgment of God. For a time I agreed with some Calvinists. And was fooled into thinking I wasn’t saved.
So now comes out the reason for your misplaced angst at me. That's fine with me. Perhaps it is some pennance I must endure for someone I did the same to in the past. I bless you with all my heart FC, and no matter what you think of me, I love you in all sincerity and thank God for you, just the way you are.â€

Yet in all of that you still didn’t agree with me that I am in Christ. Like I said, it was people like you and Savedbygrace57 that started me on the path that led me to my current position. I have no angst concerning you or anyone else. Rather, I’m thankful. Otherwise, I would be in full agreement with Savedbygrace57. And like you, if memory serves, he too denies being a Calvinist. But having started out as a Calvinist, I know one when I see one. At least I recognize the influence. Not saying that people can’t come up with Calvinistic ideas on their own. It’s just a matter of what is emphasized.


“How I wish I could talk to you in person so I could respond directly to things you say. There are many things I would love to discuss that the format of a forum does not allow.â€

In person, you would make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.


“First and foremost I DO NOT PRESUME THAT YOU ARE NOT A BROTHER.â€

You did not presume. You came to that position at one point. I make it a habit NOT to search for incriminating posts. Takes too much time. If you have changed your mind, I am gratified.


“This Truth and the Truth that God is Love and there is no Spirit of Love without Him is all one needs to distinguish Truth from lies. The Truth sets one free from sin through not judging hypocritically and realizing we can only do what is good by grace. So if a man knows to esteem God as the Spirit of Love and as all that is good in man, you will love Him with all your heart mind and soul, and abiding in this Love you will love others as you would want to be Loved. That is all... that is it... So simple a child can understand. One does not need know scripture to know this.†And “Post 114â€

Sometimes you say things that just don’t make any sense to me.


“And quit implying I am a Calvinist. I don't even know what that is.â€

Then it’s time you found out. No sense in you being the only one ignorant.

But it’s true your not completely like a Calvinist. Calvinists believe in the necessity of the Bible to know supernatural truth.

Nevertheless, I have to thank you in that your opposition to what I believe about Romans 1 has helped to clarify several points in Romans 1-4 for me. Not Romans 1 itself. Other things in those chapters.

Romans

1:18-2:16: Paul speaks about two separate groups of Gentiles. The first group (1:18-32) refers to those Gentiles who know the truth and reject it and sin thereby. The second group (2:1-16) know the truth and though they don’t reject it, they judge the other group and sin anyway. Thus all Gentiles are under sin.

2:17-3:22: Paul speaks to the Jews showing that even though they have the law, they are just as guilty of sin as the Gentiles. I used to think that this section ended at 3:9 and that 3:10-21 referred to all together. Even though I wondered why Paul would quote the Law with reference to all.

3:23-31: Paul describes all as being condemned and that all can only be Justified in Christ. The Jews out of the faith of Christ, and the Gentiles through the faith of Christ. The consensus in Christianity is that these two pronoun phrases mean the same thing. Though as yet I don’t understand the difference, I don’t think they are the same. That would make Paul’s speaking redundant.

Romans 4:1-25: Paul uses the example of Abraham to show us how we are to believe into Christ. Abraham believed God, what God revealed to him, and it was reckoned to him into righteous. The Law not yet existing had nothing to do with it. This is something I before didn’t realize. I knew we must believe into Christ. But how? Believe God by believing God’s revelation to us. It’s not the same as the Protestant idea of believing in Christ to be born again. Nor is it the same as the Catholic idea that to be born again one must be baptized and believe in Christ, not necessarily in that order.


FC

 

[Former Christian]

Elijah674

“And that claim of being 'in' Christ will be judged before Christ return's. Eccl. 12:13-14â€

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (KJV)

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (KJV)

Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another (KJV)

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption (KJV)

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (NIV)

Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus (KJV)

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (KJV)

1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

The pronouns are in the Greek and correctly translated. I suggest to you that if you aren’t in Christ, you’re on the outside looking in.

FC

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah674

“And that claim of being 'in' Christ will be judged before Christ return's. Eccl. 12:13-14â€

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (KJV)

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. (KJV)

Ro 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another (KJV)

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption (KJV)

2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (NIV)

Eph 2:10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)

Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus (KJV)

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first (KJV)

1Pe 5:14 Greet ye one another with a kiss of charity. Peace be with you all that are in Christ Jesus. Amen.

The pronouns are in the Greek and correctly translated. I suggest to you that if you aren’t in Christ, you’re on the outside looking in.

FC

It seems so clear. Good material!
--Elijah

 

[childeye]

Former Christian;559857]Childeye

“Truth is self evident and is Spirit. The bible only testifies to the Word but is not the Word of itelf. In other words you don't need the bible to know the Truth.”

Interesting point of view coming from a Christian. Not even I am that radical. I wonder how one would deduce that “Jesus Christ is the way, truth, and the life and that no one comes to the Father if not through him” without a Bible?

The bible did not exist in it's current form when the Gospel was first being preached. Many Gentiles come into the faith upon hearing the Gospel were neither educated in scripture, nor literate. Yet they believed through the testimony of others. This is hardly radical.

In person, you would make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry.

And what have I said that would make you angry?