Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !

[Eugene]

Sorry for jumping into this thread without reading each and every post, but I truly am curious about one thing, so here is my question;
Was everyone created with the possibility of accepting Christ, or were some created merely to aide somehow in the progression of faith of others?
I ask this question based on the following scriptures;
Exodus 4:21
And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord. And they did so.
Exodus 14:17
And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.
I don't believe that either the Pharaoh nor the Egyptians had a choice in the matter. God used them in order to prove that He was the Lord. (Exodus 14:4)

Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. This scripture of course refers to Israel in the future, but the thought may be applied to all of God's elect.

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

When you refer to God hardening the hearts of unbelievers it was not due to instilled unobjectionable conditioning, it was due to leniency. Pharaoh would face great pestilences and repent, but when taken away his heart would of its own harden again. If God did such a thing to someone with no alternative, how could He righteously judge them for it, and we know and read in Genesis 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Law was given to give a knowledge of sin !


Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This was one of the many purposes of the Law of God to give to His Elect a Knowledge of sin and their need of their Head and Saviour Jesus Christ, for this World was Created for an Redemptive Purpose. Adam was Created for an Redemptive Purpose, a purpose of Grace established before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

That means before Adam began ! Now after Adam's Creation he was immediately given a Law by God His Creator, a Command as to what he could not do, hear ye the Law or Command Gen 2:15-17

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This prohibition was the then manifested and declared Law and Will of God, made known to Man at this Time, and we know from later Revelation that the purpose of the Law was to give a Knowledge of Sin Rom 3:20 and Rom 7:7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul is saying,if it had not been for the Law, he would not have known [experientially] sin or that he was a awful sinner before God in need of His Saviour See how Paul thought of himself before the Law was applied to him spiritually Phil 3:4-6 !, and so it was for Adam, he would have known that he was sinful before God without the law given him in Gen 2:16-17. Again remember what Paul writes here in Rom 3:20. Since Adam was Created for an Redemptive Purpose in Grace, he must know transgression experientially, for if God would not have given him a Law or Command to Obey, then there would be know Transgression Rom 4:15

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You see, It was already determined before the World Began that Christ would undergo the Wrath of God for the sins of the Elect 1 Pet 1:20 and so the Law must be given that caused the Transgression that brought the sin and guilt into the world against God's People of which Christ was already slain for in the Purpose of God Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now Transgression is the trespass of God's or overstepping of God's revealed will or command, which was stated clearly to Adam/ man here Gen 2:15-17. Now by disobedience, man in adam came to have a experiential knowledge of sin Rom 3:20;7:7, now man had come experientially acquainted with both good and evil Gen 3:22

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Law was given to give a knowledge of sin !2


However, by Adam's Transgression, he was given the Revelation for the whole Purpose for Creation, and that being the Coming of Christ into the World, the Seed of the Woman, to destroy the Devil's Works 1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

This was purposed before the World began, but God reveals it him here Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

His Goings forth are from Everlasting for this Purpose in time Mic 5:2

2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

He is the Mercy of the Lord promised from Everlasting to Everlasting Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

The Old Saint calls Him the Mercy Performed Lk 1:72

To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

And this Purpose of Mercy was established before the foundation of the World 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

This word manifest is the same word used in 1 Jn 3:8 as to the purpose why the Son of God was manifested,it was foreordained before the foundation, that He would come into the World and destroy the Works of the Devil, which of course was also foreordained according to God's Eternal Purpose in Christ. So man in Adam had to sin according to God's set Eternal Decree, that he may have a Knowledge of Sin, whereby he knew himself to be in need of the Mercy Promised From Everlasting through Jesus Christ the Blessed Saviour of the World !

 

[Johnw]

The Law was given to give a knowledge of sin !


Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

This was one of the many purposes of the Law of God to give to His Elect a Knowledge of sin and their need of their Head and Saviour Jesus Christ, for this World was Created for an Redemptive Purpose. Adam was Created for an Redemptive Purpose, a purpose of Grace established before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

That means before Adam began ! Now after Adam's Creation he was immediately given a Law by God His Creator, a Command as to what he could not do, hear ye the Law or Command Gen 2:15-17

15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This prohibition was the then manifested and declared Law and Will of God, made known to Man at this Time, and we know from later Revelation that the purpose of the Law was to give a Knowledge of Sin Rom 3:20 and Rom 7:7

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul is saying,if it had not been for the Law, he would not have known [experientially] sin or that he was a awful sinner before God in need of His Saviour See how Paul thought of himself before the Law was applied to him spiritually Phil 3:4-6 !, and so it was for Adam, he would have known that he was sinful before God without the law given him in Gen 2:16-17. Again remember what Paul writes here in Rom 3:20. Since Adam was Created for an Redemptive Purpose in Grace, he must know transgression experientially, for if God would not have given him a Law or Command to Obey, then there would be know Transgression Rom 4:15

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You see, It was already determined before the World Began that Christ would undergo the Wrath of God for the sins of the Elect 1 Pet 1:20 and so the Law must be given that caused the Transgression that brought the sin and guilt into the world against God's People of which Christ was already slain for in the Purpose of God Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Now Transgression is the trespass of God's or overstepping of God's revealed will or command, which was stated clearly to Adam/ man here Gen 2:15-17. Now by disobedience, man in adam came to have a experiential knowledge of sin Rom 3:20;7:7, now man had come experientially acquainted with both good and evil Gen 3:22

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So let me clearly understand what you are saying. Before the foundation of the world, God knew He would send His son Jesus Christ to atone for the sins of the Elect? God knew man would sin and only those whose names were written in the book of life (prior to the foundation of the earth) would be saved?

 

[savedbygrace57]

john

Before the foundation of the world, God knew He would send His son Jesus
Christ to atone for the sins of the Elect?

Yes, the World was Created primarily for that Purpose, for Christ to die for the sins of the elect on the very day and hour He died !

God knew man would sin and only those whose names were written in the book of
life (prior to the foundation of the earth) would be saved?

Yes.

Now I noticed you quoted a whole post, # 1002 but did not comment on nearly any of it. Did you understand the points I made with scripture ?

 

[Johnw]

Yes I understood them and working on an answer for myself. Please forgive me taking time to digest what you or anyone else has to post. I try to follow the example of the Bereans in Acts 17:11 wherein it states; "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
Therefore I usually ask one or two questions at a time. It's just the way I study.

 

[Johnw]

john



Yes, the World was Created primarily for that Purpose, for Christ to die for the sins of the elect on the very day and hour He died !



Yes.

Now I noticed you quoted a whole post, # 1002 but did not comment on nearly any of it. Did you understand the points I made with scripture ?

I noticed that you answered yes to both my previous questions, which leads me to further questions;
If it is true that before the foundation of the world, God knew He was going to send His son to atone for the sins of the "Elect", and only those whose names were written in the book of life would be saved, again being the "Elect", then what purpose does the law serve? The "Elect" were chosen prior to the foundation of the world. I only mention this because in post # 1002 you spoke primarily of the need for the law. (Which by the way I am still studying.)

 

[savedbygrace57]

jonh w

I noticed that you answered yes to both my previous questions,

But you ignored mine !

 

[stranger]

savedbygrace57

At this stage you might want to go public about why you are running the same material, over and over again, on so many Christian forums on the internet? Why the identical topics, and why the cut and paste approach?

 

[Johnw]

jonh w



But you ignored mine !

Sorry, I really don't mean to ignore yours. As I have stated, I like to study first what people post and asking other questions allows me to gain a better insight

 

[savedbygrace57]

A World free from the Law and Sin !

2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

This World here that Paul says, God was in Christ reconciling to Himself, How was this done ? By not imputing or charging its trespasses against it. What are their trespasses ?

Its their transgressions of God's Law, and for where no law is, there would be no transgression or trespass !

We judge that trespasses here means transgressions as the same blessing of NON IMPUTATION is stated here Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man or men unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Two more things here discovered about this World of 2 Cor 5:19, its a forgiven World, though sinful and its a World that God does not charge or impute Iniquity.

So those of Ps 5:5 and Matt 7:23 cannot be be part of this World of 2 Cor 5:19.

All the lawless deeds of the World of 2 Cor 5:19 are not charged to it or them of it. Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man or men to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven World, Justified from all transgressions, lawless deeds, works of iniquity, and how is all that True and factual ? By the Body of Christ, or His Death for them Rom 7:4

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom 6:7

7 For he that is dead[as in Rom 7:4] is freed[Justified] from sin.

Only those who blind to the Truth will deny this Great Truth about the World of 2 Cor 5:19

 

[Johnw]

savedbygrace57

At this stage you might want to go public about why you are running the same material, over and over again, on so many Christian forums on the internet? Why the identical topics, and why the cut and paste approach?

Pardon me Stranger, but why did you post such a comment?

 

[Johnw]

(Two more things here discovered about this World of 2 Cor 5:19, its a forgiven World, though sinful and its a World that God does not charge or impute Iniquity.
So those of Ps 5:5 and Matt 7:23 cannot be be part of this World of 2 Cor 5:19.
All the lawless deeds of the World of 2 Cor 5:19 are not charged to it or them of it. Rom 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man or men to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
The World of 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven World, Justified from all transgressions, lawless deeds, works of iniquity, and how is all that True and factual ? By the Body of Christ, or His Death for them Rom 7:4)

I'm still a bit confused by the previous responses you've posted and the scriptures in which you quote. If in the beginning, before the foundation of the world, God chose those whom He would save through the sacrifice of His son Jesus. What difference does it make whether the world is a forgiven world or not?

It appears that the forgiveness which you speak of only applies to the "Elect". In Romans 3:11 it states "There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God." and I understand that this refers to Psalms 53:1-3 (another discussion).
Is it not true that God Himself will choose or has already chosen those He will or has saved?
John 10:15-16 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." In these scriptures Christ states He lays His life down for the "sheep" otherwise the "Elect". Again the "sheep/Elect" follow Him because they were chosen to follow Him before the foundation of the world.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is by Grace !

Salvation is by Grace , that Grace which Christ tasted death for every man, that is for every man He indeed did die for, all the Sheep Heb 2:9, and one of the many Salvation Blessings that belongs to all for whom He died by Grace, is Redemption from the curse of the Law, and therefore sin, for the strength of sin is God's Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [By His Death ]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This is a blessing of Grace , Redemption from the curse of the law, even while believers are unbelievers or enemies in themselves, so much so that they are said to be [ while enemies, unbelievers] reconciled to God, Solely by the Death of His Son. That reconciliation is proof that Christ's Death redeemed them from the curse of the Law, because He was made a curse for them. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That word reconciled means:

change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favor with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favor

In other words, because of Christ's Death for those He died, they are received into God's Favor, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers. Even as enemies and unbelievers they are redeemed from the curse of the Law !

This Truth is wrested and denied by the false christians of our day !

 

[stranger]

Pardon me Stranger, but why did you post such a comment?

Hello Johnw,

The Lord be with you. I like people to be open about where they are coming from - especially with SOURCES. It is obvious he is 'cut and pasting' because his posts were identical in the 8 or so forums that have already banned him. There is also the case of Christological error (claiming Jesus Christ is the Archangel Micheal) which then skews and unbalances everything that follows.

 

[Johnw]

God be with you too Stranger. Thank you for your response.

 

[Johnw]

Salvation is by Grace !

Salvation is by Grace , that Grace which Christ tasted death for every man, that is for every man He indeed did die for, all the Sheep Heb 2:9, and one of the many Salvation Blessings that belongs to all for whom He died by Grace, is Redemption from the curse of the Law, and therefore sin, for the strength of sin is God's Law Gal 3:13

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us [By His Death ]: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

This is a blessing of Grace , Redemption from the curse of the law, even while believers are unbelievers or enemies in themselves, so much so that they are said to be [ while enemies, unbelievers] reconciled to God, Solely by the Death of His Son. That reconciliation is proof that Christ's Death redeemed them from the curse of the Law, because He was made a curse for them. Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

That word reconciled means:

change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

b) return to favor with, be reconciled to one

c) to receive one into favor

In other words, because of Christ's Death for those He died, they are received into God's Favor, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers. Even as enemies and unbelievers they are redeemed from the curse of the Law !

This Truth is wrested and denied by the false christians of our day !

So in other words, everyone has been forgiven and reconciled unto God through Jesus Christ, therefore all will go to heaven? or is this just temporary forgiveness?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Salvation is by Grace ! cont

Salvation is by Grace, which also means by Election, the Election of Grace Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

It [Salvation/Election] cannot be based upon anything we do, good or evil Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

If we believe it is, we deny Salvation by Grace, also if we don't believe Sovereignly chose and purposed to save only some by Grace of Election, giving the rest no opportunity for salvation, but purposely created them for eternal damnation, we deny Salvation by Grace; More than 95% of professing Christianity today denies Salvation by Grace !

 

[savedbygrace57]

So in other words, everyone has been forgiven and reconciled unto God through Jesus Christ, therefore all will go to heaven? or is this just temporary forgiveness?

See Post 1014. Rehearse each point with me !

 

[Johnw]

(In other words, because of Christ's Death for those He died, they are received into God's Favor, even while they themselves are enemies and unbelievers. Even as enemies and unbelievers they are redeemed from the curse of the Law !)

I have indeed read post 1014 and the follow up statement you made, in which you again point out "because of Christ's Death for those He died"
One can then assume that Christ did not die for all but only for the elect. Again, those chosen from the foundation of the world.

Throwing scripture after scripture at someone without having any personal input or at least bringing it into layman's terms, would surely drive someone away if they were themselves not possessive of a theological background. (just a thought)