Freewill religion ! - Part 2

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

This is basic Calvinism. When the Bible says "all men" it doesn't mean 'ALL men". What it means is that the chosen ones, come from "all" different nations, races, genders, etc. This is what they refer to as God not being a respecter of persons. It's as if it says, "It is the will of God that men from all nations, genders, races, will be saved.

Right. So what about people with no nation? Is there no desire for them in basic Calvinistic view ?

See the 'of'. So it is individuals but not All individuals.

Wow. So, messenger was just saying basic Calvinism stuff, but doing it very baadly. (sheepish grin.)
If he doesn't say "TULIP", I guess I'm not quick enough to catch the inference.

If it were the sentence of 1Tim 2:4 in isolation, I'd have to accept his position. All isn't definitive by itself. But, don't you think the fact that it's nestled in heretic city, and prayers for Nero the 666 King makes that a bit unusual; to say right after praying for this King, and these heretics as part of "All MEN", and that God desires "all MEN" to be saved doesn't mean these men?

I think it's odd.

I think it's really strange, even.


I mean, that God (who is love) loves all men equally, but depending on whether they're in a nation or not, some men are more equal than others. And if it's not the nation which makes the difference, what is it?

I know, for example, that we are commanded to love our enemy; because, God does it.
I know, for example, that the translators of the bible use "Hate" as an opposite to love, but where in Greek -- it doesn't have the connotation of "malice" like it does in English.

I think this is important, for it makes ideas like this one ... :

Luke 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

: ... To be understood in the sense of loving one's wife less than we love Jesus the Christ, BUT BUT not in the sense of bearing them MALICE.

For, what is this, that Paul says -- if we must hate our wives maliciously?
Ephes 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

It's going to take a pretty strong verse from somewhere, and a GOOD explanation, to convince me that love in God somehow means hate in the American or English sense of the word.

Maybe this Calvin guy just took the English translation for granted, but I dig a little deeper than that myself.
Or maybe Calvin was just called heretic so often that he thought that the heretics mentioned in Timothy and mr. 666 king, were actually saved.
I dunno... but something's really wrong with his view.

God may love one less than another, in one matter or another, but none the less -- he loves each and every one of us.
God hates nothing HE has made, or else I *REALLY* don't see why he would have made it. ( He might really hate something I make, though... )

But: If man is the image of God (Genesis 1:27), then clearly -- God made that image in ALL MEN. Every last one of us. (Women too, obviously included as part of man, right from the prime rib and not a walking mat at the feet.)

So, on what grounds do they claim -- or what example can they show -- where God damns one of two men, for no reason but just to damn him?
I think he really does desire that all men come to salvation.

Am I really way off base here?

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

So, on what grounds do they claim -- or what example can they show -- where God damns one of two men, for no reason but just to damn him?
I think he really does desire that all men come to salvation.

So that not to offend anyone....Not all Calvinist are they same, the don't all believe exactly the same thing. Not all are 5 pointers of the TULIP.

As for the example, probably Esau and Jacob.

But I should let be quiet and let one of these answer. Usually when I've pressed for some answer to certain scriptures, they just ignore those questions. Like how could God command a man to do something but deny him the ability to do what He commands?

If it were the sentence of 1Tim 2:4 in isolation, I'd have to accept his position

Can God have several different desires (will) and one be contingent on the other? Rather like an if/then statement?
Such as God in His divine will created man with the ability to make choices, which may not always be Godly choices and still desire that all men come to Him. To repent and be saved.
Did God randomly create some to salvation and others to damnation?
Esau, God hated? God create a son to be hated by Himself the Father? All I can say is that if a man were to do such a thing, that would be considered by me to be child abuse.
i.e. I have a child that I am going to deliberately make them do things that are harmful to them and those around them. Then to I am going to command them to do something, say clean their room but I keep them confined to the kitchen so that they can't get there and then I beat them for disobeying??
This parent should be arrested and locked up? Hmm... Are we not to be like Jesus who is the express image of the Father? So if this is the way the Father is with those children that He creates then we can do the same. One child is cherished and the other is a punching bag.

God says, do what I say not as I do?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Get thee behind me satan !

Matt 16:23

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God,. but those that be of men.

I'm sure all of us may be familiar of the Lord's words here on this occasion with Peter. Many also have referenced this incident as Christ calling Peter a devil on the same notion as He surely does with judas, the Son of perdition Jn 6:70

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Notice Jesus said only one of them is a devil, not Two as to include Peter !

So I do not agree that Jesus was calling Peter a devil as He did judas, but for His words to Peter, the reason for His statement is given us in the very same comment, which is:

For thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men

You see that ? Jesus is pointing out that to savour e things of men over that of the hings of God, is of satan.

The word savourest is the greek word phroneō:

1) to have understanding, be wise

2) to feel, to think

a) to have an opinion of one's self, think of one's self, to be modest, not let one's opinion (though just) of himself exceed the bounds of modesty

b) to think or judge what one's opinion is

c) to be of the same mind i.e. agreed together, cherish the same views, be harmonious

3) to direct one's mind to a thing, to seek, to strive for

a) to seek one's interest or advantage

b) to be of one's party, side with him (in public affairs)


Jesus was not condemning His Beloved Disciple to be a devil, but at that moment, his mindset, thinking was the issue. Peter at that time manifested a mind set that was in opposition to the purpose of God, which set purpose is mentioned in Vs 21

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

His Death and Resurrection. This purpose was already predetermined by God the Father as seen here Lk 22:22

22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Acts 4:27-28

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.


But Peter reacting out of human emotion against that which God has determined to be in His Purpose, such behavior is satanic, its influenced by satan, its opposes the things that be of God as in 2 Thess 2:4

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Opposing the Eternal Truths of God's Gospel, its counsels and determinations, which one counsel of it is brought out in Matt 16:21,is satanic.When we question God's absolute Sovereignty in Salvation as set forth in scripture as in Rom 9:11-20, that savoring the things of man and its satanic. Notice Paul's answer to questioning God's Sovereignty in Salvation Rom 9:20

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

This o man is savoring the things of man over the things that be of God Matt 16:23.

That's right, man replying back to God in His Purpose of Salvation and Reprobation according to His Sovereignty alone, is savoring the things of men, its a mindset of the natural man, over the things of God, and that's satanic . Get thee behind me satan, for:

thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.599

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rejecting Salvation by Grace !

We reject Salvation by Grace and make it by debt when we reject Salvation by Grace only for a Elect People [The Election of Grace] and the rest being rejected. The normal reaction to this is that if God does not give all men without exception an opportunity, a chance to be saved by Grace, then He is unfair, then upon that premise, Grace becomes a debt owed to everyone, God owes it to all men, and once it becomes that, its no longer Grace.

So man by nature rejects Salvation by Grace, because when its by Grace it is discriminatory by the nature of it. If we say it should be available to all without discrimination, then we are saying it is owed to everyone and God becomes man's debtor !600

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

We reject Salvation by Grace and make it by debt when we reject Salvation by Grace only for a Elect People [The Election of Grace] and the rest being rejected. The normal reaction to this is that if God does not give all men without exception an opportunity, a chance to be saved by Grace, then He is unfair, then upon that premise, Grace becomes a debt owed to everyone, God owes it to all men, and once it becomes that, its no longer Grace.

God doesn't owe anyone anything, including the ELECT.

I don't reject salvation by grace through faith, quite the contrary. What I reject is the idea that God commands all men, everywhere to repent, but then has created them without the ability to do that. Or He doesn't call them so that they can obey Him and repent.
Or that He fools them into thinking that they are saved, by allowing them to participate in is Holy Spirit and then takes it away again, not because of anything they have done, just because they weren't chosen but a random selection that ignores the word "foreknowledge".

I don't reject the Gospel of Grace, I'm probably as close to being OSAS as you can get but must acknowledge that it appears in the scripture that one could reject Him after being saved.

So man by nature rejects Salvation by Grace, because when its by Grace it is discriminatory by the nature of it. If we say it should be available to all without discrimination, then we are saying it is owed to everyone and God becomes man's debtor !600

No I see that Torah and I see God's justice, God says He is a just God. I believe Him.

So when Paul says that through the preacher God is beseeching us to be reconciled to God because He has already reconciled Himself to man through Jesus,
I Believe Him.

 

[WIP]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Note: This forum is not a personal blog forum. Define the topic of the forum, introduce a position, and scripturally defend said position with respect and humility.

From the sticky at the top of this forum:

This section deals with the study and practice of Theology and Apologetics. When posting or answering post in this section, users are asked to state clearly what the theological subject is, and why it is true or not true. Questions can be asked regarding the theology or the apologetic defense for the theology.

Not necessarily pointing at the last poster.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Their fellow sinners who are lost had the same chance and opportunity they had but failed to take advantage of it, and so if this be the case, they have reason to boast over their fellow creature who was not as wise as they were who did not blow their opportunity as they did.

If I were to boast about the grace of God in my life comparing myself to someone who is not saved yet, how foolish and just plain ignorant would that be.
God works differently in different people's lives at different times of their lives. That is all up to God and not for me to judge them.

I believe that it is the Christian job to pray and witness to the lost. There is no way you can do this and be judgmental. You start praying for someone, even people who have hurt you terribly and God changes your heart towards them. You cannot honestly do both. Pray for them and judge them harshly, it just doesn't work in my experience.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The vessels of wrath !



Rom 9:21-22

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

As there is no Gospel of God's Grace without preaching the Divine discriminating Election of Grace, so the same it is in consequence of that Truth, to preach its logical counterpart Divine Reprobation, or the vessels of wrath, the Election of Grace are the Vessels of Mercy, whereas the non elect are the vessels of wrath. We Preach God's Word, and it is revealed His Purpose to save a People Chosen in Christ before the foundation, and as such, it reveals His Purpose from Eternity in that He has Eternally Reprobated others by leaving them out of His Election of Grace in Christ, Jesus calls them they that are without M 4:11

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

When Christ makes a statement to some as this Matt 23:32-33

32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Such are outside of His Election of Grace and their portion was to go to hell, the vessels of wrath,they have no hope of Salvation, so Jesus says with antipathy "how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"


Hell was prepared for them, the devil and his angels. They are the devil themselves because they are his seed and therefore one with him !

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Hell was prepared for them, the devil and his angels. They are the devil themselves because they are his seed and therefore one with him !

2 Corinthians 5 NKJV
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How does one obey this command to be reconciled to God? God says, He already reconciled Himself to the world. Why is God pleading through the Apostles for men to reconcile themselves to God?

It sounds to me like God is making man responsible for responding to the Gospel of Grace, in some way. How do you explain this?

I'm pretty sure, I won't get an answer........ oh well

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

deb

If I were to boast about the grace of God in my life comparing myself to someone who is not saved yet, how foolish and just plain ignorant would that be.

No one stated anything about you personally. There is a principle involved, if all have the same opportunity to become saved and yet all are not saved, then the conclusion is I am saved because of something I did, and the other is not saved because of something they did not do, hence it gives a reason to boast. God does not give anyone a reason to boast Rom 4:2

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Works is when we think we did something for God to save us !

 

[reba]

Re: The man of sin !

2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

No one stated anything about you personally.

And I did not take it personally.

I usually post in first person or third. But first usually just because I can't speak for others, they may see things very differently than I do.
If I had said "we", ignorant and foolish, I could be insulting someone who sees things differently.
But as for me and my conscious, I would see me as ignorant and foolish.

To me 'faith' is not of good works or the law. Faith that our Lord is working through us to do His will, produces obedience and good works.

I do not believe that I have any reason to boast. I do not believe that I would have ever believed (faith) if God had not been working to bring that about.

I think our differences in doctrine may be because we see the words 'God's will' differently.

I read about the Garden and see that God had create man in His own image and I believe that part of that image may even be the 'will'. I see that God gave two commands, one positive, one negative. Eat from the Tree of Life. Don't eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. So I hear "choose life, not death"
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

This is why I see God is just in saying,
Acts 17:30
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I don't see that this thinking in anyway diminishes the 'Sovereignty' or 'Lordship' of our Almighty God. He made the rules and He can do anything He chooses with us. But at the same time He has given us scriptures and the very creation of the world around us and the miracle of life itself, that convinces us as to who He is, so that we can see we are without excuse, in our unsaved folly. Even the Greeks were aware there was a God they did not know.
Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, To The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

So when Paul brought the message and told them about this God, some believed then some didn't. Some may have even believed but not declared it in front of the others, such as we see with the Pharisee Nicodemus. We just don't know.

When I look at election and what that means, I see that word foreknowledge, God had/has foreknowledge.

Thank you for your considerate reply.
Blessings to you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The vessels of wrath !cont

God's Sovereign Right to reprobate and make people for hell, which is what vessels of wrath mean, is Illustrated by Paul's Gospel here Rom 9:17-21

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

The Pharoah [as all vessels of wrath] was made or created a vessel of wrath y God for the purpose of hardening and destruction, which is an example of all vessels of wrath. God Illustrated it here also Deut 2:30

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

The primary purpose for the vessels of wrath given being by God, is to persecute and be enemies to God's People of choice as it was with the pharaoh,and then to justly punish them as He did pharaoh, for I n this God gets Honor to Himself. Observe the Song of Moses after the destruction of pharaoh and his army host

Ex 15:1-18

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.

2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.

5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone.

6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble.

8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.

9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

10 Thou didst blow with thy wind, the sea covered them: they sank as lead in the mighty waters.

11 Who is like unto thee, O Lord, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?

12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

14 The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the inhabitants of Palestina.

15 Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.

16 Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O Lord, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.

17 Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O Lord, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O Lord, which thy hands have established.

18 The Lord shall reign for ever and ever.

This victory song is compared to Christ and His Victory over God's Chosen Spiritual Enemies Rev 15:3-4

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

The Eternal Destruction of the Vessels of Wrath were Created by God for this Purpose of Eternal Praise unto God !603

 

[Deborah13]

Re: The vessels of wrath !cont

The Pharoah [as all vessels of wrath] was made or created a vessel of wrath y God for the purpose of hardening and destruction, which is an example of all vessels of wrath.

Thanks for responding but I leave you to your theology, I can't say more. I'd get an infraction or be banned.

 

[MarkT]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Hell was prepared for them, the devil and his angels. They are the devil themselves because they are his seed and therefore one with him !

2 Corinthians 5 NKJV
12 For we do not commend ourselves again to you, but give you opportunity to boast on our behalf, that you may have an answer for those who boast in appearance and not in heart. 13 For if we are beside ourselves, it is for God; or if we are of sound mind, it is for you. 14For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

How does one obey this command to be reconciled to God? God says, He already reconciled Himself to the world. Why is God pleading through the Apostles for men to reconcile themselves to God?

It sounds to me like God is making man responsible for responding to the Gospel of Grace, in some way. How do you explain this?

I'm pretty sure, I won't get an answer........ oh well

The gospel is preached to all men so that all men will be judged at the close of the age. Then the good and the bad will be sorted into baskets. The fact that God desires all men to be saved is why we preach to all men, the good and the bad. God is just.

As to the work of the gospel, there are two things you should keep in mind. There are two types of work, physical and spiritual. Preaching the gospel, for example, is physical work. Hearing and believing, however, are the work of God, the work of the word on the heart and soul and mind. So when we preach the gospel or when we keep his commandments, those are physical works which we can choose to do or not do. Woe to us if we do not keep his commandments! But the effect of the gospel on the heart is the work of God. It's a spiritual work. If the word that comes by us falls on a hard heart, then you won't have belief. If it falls on poor ground, then in times of stress you will have a falling away or poor fruit. If the word falls on a believing heart and it is met with faith, then you will have good fruit - peace, love, etc.

God knows what he is doing when he makes men. Knowing the end from the beginning, he makes men for his purpose.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Get thee behind me satan !

Matt 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God,. but those that be of men. I'm sure all of us may be familiar of the Lord's words here on this occasion with Peter. Many also have referenced this incident as Christ calling Peter a devil on the same notion as He surely does with judas, the Son of perdition Jn 6:70 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

I don't see why you bring this up. It seems off topic, unless you are trying to refute that the devil I mentioned in Timothy 2:1-2 is not saved.

I wish you would explicitly say why you bring something up -- our conversation could be far more apologetics forum oriented and to the point if you would do so.

Assuming this is why you brought it up, it doesn't apply:


After speaking about Heretics, I pointed out that Paul said:
1Timo 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Timo 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Timo 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Timo 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

To your response concerning Peter, I'll agree -- they are kings, to be sure: cf. Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, BUT the apostles weren't earthly kings. They were to be kings in the regeneration.

Nor was Peter the one causing Paul problems, for this passage in Timothy is about war as a member of the church against the world's kings:

1Timo 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;

Those prophecies, BTW, concern things like the abomination of desolation. Rome destroying Jerusalem, etc. It's the prophecies about what the church would go through.

And scripture already witnesses that Peter, on account of Jesus Prayer (we may assume), had long since repented many many years before Paul wrote Timothy, and Peter was the source of strengthening his brothers (He is called a Pillar/Cephas for this reason). eg: "when you have turned, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22:31-32.

So, Timothy isn't about Peter. It's about worldly kings who had power over Paul, and the Apostles. People like Herod, and Nero, and Caesar...

And, what's important is that AT LEAST SOME (1+) of the world's kings are in fact anti-christs of the damned to hell sort, not the repenting kind.

For, we are told of the beast -- who's number is 666 -- that he will be burned in the lake of fire along with his followers who worship him and not God.
Revelation 13:18, Revelation 14:9-10, and
Revel 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The Beast then, is a King, an earthly man, who's name adds up to 666, and who ends up in Hell.
There is quite a bit of evidence, that Nero is the first man meeting these requirements (not that he need be the last, as some are biased that it is only Nero -- and I'm not arguing end times things here, just the existence of a beast king. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_the_beast )

When Paul prays for "Kings" -- contextually the king Paul was on his way to see was Nero. And Paul is telling us, therefore, that Nero is one of "all men".

1Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Timothy 2:2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Timothy 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

It absolutely doesn't matter that some men who repent tempt Christ. Peter, historically, was crucified by Nero exactly the same as Paul was beheaded by that same man's orders. In the end, Peter was no friend of Nero.

What matters, is that the beast is NOT saved, and IS a KING; and that Paul included this king in his prayers, and said God desired that he be saved.
Even though God counsels things, not everything God desired or counseled happened historically.

As I already gave an explicit example, and you didn't respond clearly -- I'll just link back to it.
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=52286&p=845916&viewfull=1#post845916

 

[Sparkey]

Re: Get thee behind me satan !

I wish you would explicitly say why you bring something up -- our conversation could be far more apologetics forum oriented and to the point if you would do so.

I agree. SBG, please rehearse for me what is stated in the sticky on top of our forum. Wait... here, I'll fetch it for us to read together:

From the STICKY at the top of the Apologetics and Theology forum:

This section deals with the study and practice of Theology and Apologetics. When posting or answering post in this section, users are asked to state clearly what the theological subject is, and why it is true or not true. Questions can be asked regarding the theology or the apologetic defense for the theology.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

In order for 1 Tim. 2:4 to harmonize with the rest of Scripture, the "all" cannot be referring to individuals; but to people of all nations, ethnicity and rank in the world; that the Gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception.

I've already dealt with this contextually; but I just realized, there is a far simpler way to disprove your assertion.
For, if 1Tim 2:4 refers to all ethinicity and nations WITHOUT EXCEPTION, then it's clear that God's desire was not realized. For, there are nations from which not a single convert to Christianity was ever made.

Take for example the Americas, and the nation of Chavin, which existed from 900BC to 200AD. (eg: long After Timothy was written).

Not even Eric the Red had contact with them, so not even indirect knowledge of Christianity could have reached them before wars and conquests wiped them from the face of the earth.
They were 100% Pagan to the day they *all* died.

So, if you interpret Timothy as "nations" -- your explanation has exactly the same problem as if it were speaking of individual men. (all Men). so I don't see that you apologetic really explains anything new or clearly even if accepted.
For not all nations had at least one person who was saved, and also knew the truth.

 

[Messenger]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

nations WITHOUT EXCEPTION

"People" of/from all nations; the all of many, not all nations without exception.
God has saved His "people" (Mat. 1:21) from "many nations" (Gen. 17:5).
Previously explained in post #174 if you care to review it.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

"People" of/from all nations; the all of many, not all nations without exception. God has saved His "people" (Mat. 1:21) from "many nations" (Gen. 17:5). Previously explained in post #174 if you care to review it.

I've read that post several times. It explains nothing clearly to me.

But: What you said was "to people of all nations .... that the Gospel should be preached without exception."
So, your explanation appears to be at odds with whatever is meant in post #174 -- or else, the explanation is very badly done.
I'm going to need to intelligible clarification.

For the Gospel simply was not preached to people of all nations without exception, as you (not SBG57) asserted. I don't understand what you mean, nor SBG57 for that matter.

Paul, explicitly says concerning the elect is:
Colossians 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

None of Greek nor Barbarian nor Scythian is part of the people descended from Abraham biologically, so it doesn't follow that the Chavin's were excluded on account of not being descended through the non-Jewish lines from Hagar or Ishmael.

When God divided up the world, in his anger, at the tower of Babel (over building a zigaraut, which is for star gazing none the less); He portioned it into ~70 nations (Genesis 10), and Israel is not listed among those nations -- for God took Israel as his own portion through Abraham; But the rest, he gave to be the inheritance of various angels, and he gave those nations up to the vain worship of the angels in the stars (for stars are the metaphor of the angel whether falsely worshiped or not falsely as in Revelation 1:20) -- and many places in scripture attest to this designation; esp. Deuteronomy 4:19,

It's very well known that the designation "Pleadies" and "Orion" and various other constellation names are the Greek mythologies associated with ASTROLOGY; eg: worship of the stars; which testifies to the Greeks being one of the nations who was given up by God to the vain worship of the heavens; as were the Babylonans, and many other nations we can find through archaeology.

None of these nations descend from Abraham biologically, but all come from the time mentioned in Genesis concerning the tower of Babel, when the angels of God (plural) descended to take nations to themselves as their guardians dividing them in language as a marker of nationality -- Genesis 11:7. (Let "US" go down.), and those same angels who are made wind and flame(eg:stars are flame Hebrews 1:7, Psalm 104:4) as mere servants have been watching over mankind as the Father bade them.

Angels have ruled over man during the time of preparation for salvation, but are servants of man. Hebrews discusses some of this...
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

It is precisely there, right after Babylon in Genesis 10/11, that God called Abraham -- uniquely -- to be his own nation and the father of many nations.

All other nations, however, he gave up to the Angels -- as guardians until the day of salvation, with their several languages.

I shouldn't even need to go further to show that the Chavin's were given up into the hands of angels, as were the Greeks, etc. But, it's a trivial matter to go do an online search and find out that the Chavin's also studied the stars as did their fore-runners the olmec and that they influenced the later Mayans who's calenders are famous.

Since we can see the angels involved in all these nations, and that even Jesus testifies that the angels watch over people who are not yet baptized; eg: have not yet entered into life through their own faith: Matthew 18:10. so: I don't see on what basis you exclude the nation of Chavin from being one of those to whom salvation was desired by God, even if none were saved; eg: for they are no different than the Greeks.

The post you referred me to talks about how "Through you[Abraham] all the nations of the earth shall be blessed" -- and to me that sounds to me very strongly like it would include people like the Chavin; so where does the opposite idea you are now suddenly talking about, vis: that some nations were never desired to be blessed, come from ?