Freewill religion ! - Part 2

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

Therefore, there is one identifiable step which must be completed before
one can have eternal life

That's works Salvation. Christ gives Eternal Life to as many as the Father gave Him, they did not make any steps. Jn 17:2

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

No steps required, Christ has completed all the required steps for them, to give them Life Eternal !

They all did one step; they all believed. If you want to argue additional works salvation, argue with @Doulos Iesou .
I have not even chosen to argue that here: All I am saying is that belief itself it *defined* as a work by Jesus so I will tell you to talk to Doulous, for he has an argument that there *IS* also a false religion called easy believeism. Perhaps that is another blasphemy that you are not aware of?

As it says in John 6:28-29: This is the *WORK* ... that you believe.
Even if It is not workS salvation -- there is one work; AND YOU MUST DO IT. Believe.

The bible says it, I believe it.

Now, having said the one thing from scripture -- I will complete it with one:
Because a person does a work does not mean they earn anything.

Here is why Paul says this:
Roman 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Because, in the law, if one earns something -- the other person is in their debt.

Consider the contrary case:
If I am offered a house, for free, but there is are the implicit conditions that I come to the bank, sign the papers, pick up the keys, bring an insurance inspector, and move in; I will have done many works -- but not one of them earned the house.

But -- I could avoid those works and yet, there would be consequences; for if I avoid the only important work; I will never get the house.

I Really DO have the power, (though it can be stripped from me by force), to disbelieve the one who offers me the house; I can condemn them in my heart as a liar who I accuse of toying with me cruelly; like the posters on the internet saying: "Your a winner" click here.

Yes: I can walk away -- and guaranteed, then, there is no prize. (But there may not be a prize even if I believe??)
For, If I believe and profess with my lips (A WORK!!!)... then I am saved??!

BUT: if I choose not to believe the one offering the gift as trustworthy, then I am condemned. I can never control the gift.
Roman 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Finally:
Jesus Christ has offered to build a house for me; nay, he promised even more: to build a house out of me as living stone.


Scripture says it, I believe it. Abraham earned nothing, but he DID work; without a work, Abraham would be dead in sin.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without work is dead?
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by work, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

They all did one step; they all believed.

Yes, after they were saved. A Lost person cannot believe.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

That's incorrect, if you don't qualify it.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

James just compared, my faith and yours, to that of demons; and placed them on par with us, by the word "also".
not partial belief, but belief.

Throughout the NT we hear of the demons saying, "I know who you are, the Holy One...."
And when Jesus tells the demons to leave a man, (exorcism), they obey him at his name as Lord.
They do in fact believe, but they don't profess hims as THEIR Lord.

Nor is it sufficient that the Holy Spirit open a person's mouth to prove they are saved, for Balaam was a true prophet of God.
The Holy Spirit opened his mouth, and even opened the mouth of a Donkey!!!!; but Balaam is condemned in scripture as wicked, and a lover of money; selling out Israel for fifthy lucre; and a donkey is not a subject of salvation in the first place.

Then there is scripture on salvation itself:

Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt (Future tense) be saved, and thy house.

Or again:

Roman 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Roman 10:9 That if thou shalt(future tense) confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be (future tense) saved.

I am sure that many people are saved *at the very moment* they believe, professing Jesus IS LORD! from their heart, overflowing onto their lips,
For they could not say Jesus is Lord, until *AFTER* they believe -- yet it says, you will be save *after* saying Jesus is Lord.

Salvation waits until after the work of professing Jesus is LORD for some people.

I can accept that God takes some people by force, before they profess him as Lord; but I do not see how scripture can be true unless at least SOME are not saved until AFTER they believe.

If I accept that God saves some previous to their statement of faith, then I also must accept that some could be saved when they are infants.
There is nothing preventing a person who is saved from being baptized; therefore, if I do accept your position -- that is tantamount to conceding infant baptism as a legitimate action. ?? How do you interpret 1Corinthians 7:14 ??

What do you say?
If an adult *is* always saved before they profess their faith, then can you absolutely deny that a child can be saved before they profess their faith --?

eg: What exactly is "faith" to you?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

asog

That's incorrect, if you don't qualify it.

No that is correct. One cannot believe the Gospel who is yet in a Lost state, because it is being hid from them. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Your remark is very clearly still incorrect if not qualified. NOTICE: 2Cor 4:3-4 does qualify it.

2 Cor 4:3-4 does not say "hid to all who are lost" Rather It says "IF" our gospel be hid.
Only those who are Lost can have the Gospel hidden from them; does not mean all that are Lost have the Gospel hidden from them.

Besides: That passage is referring specifically to the Jews, and doesn't apply to most Americans, etc. who are Gentiles in the first place; nor to demons who aren't Jews either. It refers specifically to Jews

2Cori 3:7, 2Cori 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

Or more to the point:
James conflicts with your statement, as do the future tenses of many many many gospel passages.
Scripture can't contradict itself - so you must explain the passages I cited; not just find one out of context statement that seems to say something different.

Why aren't you answering the rest of the questions I have asked; they will allow me to get a better idea of what you mean, and why we differ so radically in interpretation.

Do you not have any thoughts on whether or not an infant is "saved" ?
Or, how do you interpret 1Cori 7:14 ?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog

Your remark is very clearly still incorrect if not qualified. NOTICE: 2Cor
4:3-4 does qualify it.

2
Cor 4:3-4 does not say "hid to all who are lost" Rather
It says "IF" our gospel be hid.

If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to THEM that are Lost, simple as that. 2 Cor 4:3

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Foreknowledge !

Does God foreknow a thing or something because He was enlightened or because He determined it ? Big difference. God's foreknowledge is based upon His determinate counsel Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Meaning He knew a event beforehand because its part of His definite plan or purpose, anything short of that is making God come to know something by being enlightened. For instance, there is a big difference in God foreknowing Adam would sin and bring death into the world by it , by His looking into the future and observing it, rather than God foreknowing it because He determined it ! In the former sense it suggests that God had no previous knowledge of it until He looked into the future and saw it happening, and then responded accordingly. Though its a great ability of God to foresee things and know them before they happen, yet it still speaks of imperfection, and is less perfection than He who foreknows a thing first because He determined or purposed it to happen ! So when men speak of God's foreknowledge being that which God merely foresaw[a thing] that it was going to occur, they greatly error, because God's Foreknowledge is based upon what He determined would happen, and so of course God does see in advance or in the future and observe events happening just as He purposed it to happen. When God foresaw Adam eating of the forbidden tree and bringing about the consequences thereof, He saw His Eternal Purpose being done ; and anything short of that is Blasphemy against God and making Him out to be imperfect because He was enlightened by His creature !571

 

[Tallen]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

sbg57, what is your background? I am assuming you have some kind of Reformed thinking. (Don't read anything into those questions please.) Do you follow any of the Confessions or Creeds?

Blessings.

 

[Messenger]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

God's Foreknowledge !

Does God foreknow a thing or something because He was enlightened or because He determined it ? Big difference. God's foreknowledge is based upon His determinate counsel Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Meaning He knew a event beforehand because its part of His definite plan or purpose, anything short of that is making God come to know something by being enlightened. For instance, there is a big difference in God foreknowing Adam would sin and bring death into the world by it , by His looking into the future and observing it, rather than God foreknowing it because He determined it ! In the former sense it suggests that God had no previous knowledge of it until He looked into the future and saw it happening, and then responded accordingly. Though its a great ability of God to foresee things and know them before they happen, yet it still speaks of imperfection, and is less perfection than He who foreknows a thing first because He determined or purposed it to happen ! So when men speak of God's foreknowledge being that which God merely foresaw[a thing] that it was going to occur, they greatly error, because God's Foreknowledge is based upon what He determined would happen, and so of course God does see in advance or in the future and observe events happening just as He purposed it to happen. When God foresaw Adam eating of the forbidden tree and bringing about the consequences thereof, He saw His Eternal Purpose being done ; and anything short of that is Blasphemy against God and making Him out to be imperfect because He was enlightened by His creature !571

Amen!

God has foreordained whatever comes to pass according to His appointed time;
His predetermined Purpose is to show forth His Glory!

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season,
and a time to every purpose under the heaven

Proverbs 16:4 All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself,
And also the wicked `worketh' for a day of evil. -YLT

Romans 9:22-23 What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy,
which He had afore prepared unto glory

Psalm 104:24 How many have been Thy works, O Jehovah, All of them in wisdom Thou hast made,
Full is the earth of thy possessions. -YLT

Psalm 40:16 All seeking Thee rejoice and are glad in Thee, Those loving Thy salvation say continually,
`Jehovah is magnified.' -YLT

TGBTG!

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog Your remark is very clearly still incorrect if not qualified. NOTICE: 2Cor 4:3-4 does qualify it. 2 Cor 4:3-4 does not say "hid to all who are lost" Rather It says "IF" our gospel be hid. If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to THEM that are Lost, simple as that. 2 Cor 4:3 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

? You're not making any sense.

 

[About the Son of God]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

God's Foreknowledge !

Does God foreknow a thing or something because He was enlightened or because He determined it ? Big difference. God's foreknowledge is based upon His determinate counsel Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Meaning He knew a event beforehand because its part of His definite plan or purpose, anything short of that is making God come to know something by being enlightened. For instance, there is a big difference in God foreknowing Adam would sin and bring death into the world by it , by His looking into the future and observing it, rather than God foreknowing it because He determined it !

I think you are offering a false dichotomy.

In the case of Jesus the Christ, it is impossible that anyone should have power over him; hence it was absolutely necessary that God grant that power by determinate council in order for crucifixion to take place;

John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Or again;
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father

So; You're again generalizing from a specific case to all things; and that's inappropriate.
Jesus was both God and True man; it goes without saying that God had to determine what God himself would do.

Man does not know exactly how God orders the universe and makes everything work; and it is sheer arrogance to limit what God must and must not do when it comes to arbitrary (not evil) acts. Hence, I think you are arguing far over your ability to understand God when you make absolute statements that limit him to only one way of working.

Isaia 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way,...
Isaia 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaia 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Yet, if all things are ordained strictly by God -- then in fact, the wicked's way is God's way -- for God made them choose that way.
But, one can only avoid condemning and speaking back against God -- if they do not Judge that God forces all things in detail; but forces some, and not others; as he wills, and not when he does not will.

Step away from Jesus' christ's predetermined course which is special because, unlike us, he is God.
Rather, let's look at some cases of people who aren't God - and to whom scripture gives evidence:

Was Paul saved as a child or Not? (Predestined?)
If you say "yes", then is it ever possible that Paul was reprobate? or that he "died" a spiritual death and was saved "again"?
Or, How about Esau and Jacob?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

asog

I think you are offering a false dichotomy.

Oh well, you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

absog Your remark is very clearly still incorrect if not qualified. NOTICE: 2Cor 4:3-4 does qualify it. 2 Cor 4:3-4 does not say "hid to all who are lost" Rather It says "IF" our gospel be hid. If the Gospel is hid, it is hid to THEM that are Lost, simple as that. 2 Cor 4:3 3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

? You're not making any sense.

That's your opinion.

 

[savedbygrace57]

God's Foreknowledge !2

If we hold to the Blasphemous view that God merely foresaw that Adam would sin when placed in the garden, but that He did not determine it, then time was His Teacher and Instructor, He learned from His creatures what the creature would do after He created him. Not only time taught Him, but His creature instructed Him; Yes God may have saw and learned far in advance, but nevertheless He learned only after He foresaw; So before He foresaw it, we must conclude that He did not know about it since He did not already determine it. We must also conclude that since He did learn by foreseeing, and did not determine it beforehand, and created adam anyway, then He also saw something adam would do, that He would rather adam did not do. Such rational is very demeaning of God ! This is a view of Him that I cannot conceive that any true born of God Person and true Worshipper of Him could hold !572

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Yes God may have saw and learned far in advance, but nevertheless He learned only after He foresaw

Don't try to get around this. Your no better in understanding than Arminian Views Savedbygrace57................... Their election doctrine is just a watered down version of yours, both misunderstand the word "Whosoever" "All"

God foreknew Adam would sin as opposed to God planed for Adam to sin. It's like saying God smashed his own foot so He would have reasons to use that new cast he bought.

For if God just foreknew that Adam was going to fail, then God's foreknowledge is not all eternal, corrupting it's own argument, to where the foreknowing is actually to be caused by.

For If I foreknow I will run out of Gas but continue to drive anyway, running out of gas, then by default I still am the cause of running out of gas despite what I foreknew. Calvinism and Arminism are the SAME THING!!!! Both don't make any sense, both draw the same conclusions. Both are election Doctrines.

God put Adam on the Earth to succeed. The God I know does not plan failures. Satan Got cursed because of the whole deal, He took part of the blame. If God planned or knew going back into the ability to stop it then God would have manned up and took the blame. We don't serve a wimpy God that does not take responsibility?
So God planned Adams fall.................... for what reason??? go ahead and misquote me Peter.

For if God foreknows, then God had to have planed anyway. That makes him out to be a pretty crummy God if that is true. Praise God he is not crummy.

Mike.

 

[Deborah13]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

God's Foreknowledge !

Does God foreknow a thing or something because He was enlightened or because He determined it ? Big difference. God's foreknowledge is based upon His determinate counsel Acts 2:23

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Meaning He knew a event beforehand because its part of His definite plan or purpose, anything short of that is making God come to know something by being enlightened. For instance, there is a big difference in God foreknowing Adam would sin and bring death into the world by it , by His looking into the future and observing it, rather than God foreknowing it because He determined it ! In the former sense it suggests that God had no previous knowledge of it until He looked into the future and saw it happening, and then responded accordingly. Though its a great ability of God to foresee things and know them before they happen, yet it still speaks of imperfection, and is less perfection than He who foreknows a thing first because He determined or purposed it to happen ! So when men speak of God's foreknowledge being that which God merely foresaw[a thing] that it was going to occur, they greatly error, because God's Foreknowledge is based upon what He determined would happen, and so of course God does see in advance or in the future and observe events happening just as He purposed it to happen. When God foresaw Adam eating of the forbidden tree and bringing about the consequences thereof, He saw His Eternal Purpose being done ; and anything short of that is Blasphemy against God and making Him out to be imperfect because He was enlightened by His creature !571

God did not tell or command the children of Israel to burn their children as sacrifices. HE said, it never entered HIS MIND to tell them to do such a thing.

Have you ever addressed this scripture?? Seeing you don't given me quotes or @mentions so I know, I will just ask.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Deborah

God did not tell or command the children of Israel to burn
their children as sacrifices

Who said He did ? I didn't !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

bm

God foreknew Adam would sin as opposed to God planed for Adam to sin.

Then God learned something would happen without Purposing it. That's derogatory to God. Since God did not purpose it according to you, He would have rather it not happen. Read post 34 again.

 

[Brother Mike]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

Then God learned something would happen without Purposing it. That's derogatory to God. Since God did not purpose it according to you, He would have rather it not happen. Read post 34 again.

I know you understand that point. To have known, would have been to cause. I would rather hang out with Calvinist instead of arminist because I believe Arminist are in denial. I just hope others see what Point we understand here.

Blessings.

Mike.

 

[ezra]

Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2

I believe Arminist are in denial.

denial of what ??????