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savedbygrace57
Guest
They legalize the Gospel !
What is meant by legalizing the Gospel, that the Gospel Benefits of Christ's Finished work, in order to receive them, conditions are imposed. Usually those conditions are Faith, Repentance, or perhaps with some water baptism, and such who do so are guilty of legalizing the Gospel, and they are actually perverting the Gospel of God's Grace ! What this does is introduce works and law or commandment keeping into the Gospel. Faith in and of itself is a Spiritual Law of the Law that the Pharisees neglected Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The Law here is that Mosaic Covenant, it is preceded by the definite article, so that Faith would be that Faith that Believes on Christ, for that Law was given as a School Master to Faith in Christ ! Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Again, the Law here is preceded by the definite article as in above Matt 23:23, so Faith would be the same as well, that which looked for and believed in Christ !
So, even though Faith is a Spiritual Law, its a Law none the less, and imposing it as an condition for Salvation, is legalizing the Gospel and makes Salvation depend upon our works or keeping the Law !594
What is meant by legalizing the Gospel, that the Gospel Benefits of Christ's Finished work, in order to receive them, conditions are imposed. Usually those conditions are Faith, Repentance, or perhaps with some water baptism, and such who do so are guilty of legalizing the Gospel, and they are actually perverting the Gospel of God's Grace ! What this does is introduce works and law or commandment keeping into the Gospel. Faith in and of itself is a Spiritual Law of the Law that the Pharisees neglected Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
The Law here is that Mosaic Covenant, it is preceded by the definite article, so that Faith would be that Faith that Believes on Christ, for that Law was given as a School Master to Faith in Christ ! Gal 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Again, the Law here is preceded by the definite article as in above Matt 23:23, so Faith would be the same as well, that which looked for and believed in Christ !
So, even though Faith is a Spiritual Law, its a Law none the less, and imposing it as an condition for Salvation, is legalizing the Gospel and makes Salvation depend upon our works or keeping the Law !594
josefnospam
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
I like and agree with post...........Well said.
I like and agree with post...........Well said.
josefnospam
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things...............Isaiah 45:7
He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities...............Plsm 103:10 Now THATS good news for sinners.
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us...........Plsm 103:12
Blessings from our Great God.........
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things...............Isaiah 45:7
He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities...............Plsm 103:10 Now THATS good news for sinners.
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us...........Plsm 103:12
Blessings from our Great God.........
josefnospam
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
Well said....................Only Jesus Christ pleases God and we also if God sees his son in us instead of us and all our sins. Aren't you glad we have such a great Saviour..
Well said....................Only Jesus Christ pleases God and we also if God sees his son in us instead of us and all our sins. Aren't you glad we have such a great Saviour..
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. The proof is we don't all believe the same things even though there is only one Bible. But we don't have a choice in what we have been given. We are not free to choose something else if we want to be saved. You can believe what the Bible says or you can follow a false teacher who may be telling you what you only want to believe. I'll stick to the Bible. Is it my choice? Yes. But it is an enlightened choice. I am, after all, a son of God.
I don't believe in once saved always saved because I know men can fall away. The proof is what the churches are teaching today; equality, equal rights, political correctness.
Yet what we believe is determined by what is inside, and what is inside is determined by God. So God knows what he is doing when he makes men; some for glory and some for destruction. He knows who the sheep are and he gives his sheep pasture.
Everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. The proof is we don't all believe the same things even though there is only one Bible. But we don't have a choice in what we have been given. We are not free to choose something else if we want to be saved. You can believe what the Bible says or you can follow a false teacher who may be telling you what you only want to believe. I'll stick to the Bible. Is it my choice? Yes. But it is an enlightened choice. I am, after all, a son of God.
I don't believe in once saved always saved because I know men can fall away. The proof is what the churches are teaching today; equality, equal rights, political correctness.
Yet what we believe is determined by what is inside, and what is inside is determined by God. So God knows what he is doing when he makes men; some for glory and some for destruction. He knows who the sheep are and he gives his sheep pasture.
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About the Son of God
Member
Re: They legalize the Gospel !
And you're judging people, and not arguments ... perpetually...
By the same standards you judge, you provide potential for yourself to be condemned. (Luke 6:37)
Consider: Is your view of the gospel acquittal of the sinner that of a Justified acquittal, or is it a merely a "legalization" of sinning so that we might "get out of hell free"? (The converse of Genesis 18:25-26 ... if I find ONE righteous on the cross, I'll not only spare em all, but "LEGALISTICALLY" acquit them?)
1Cori 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cori 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cori 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
None of the sins listed can co-exist with Jesus as Christ in heaven. That's what it means -- they shall not inherit.
People who WERE these things, but are no longer -- they CAN inherit the kingdom of God ; but those who ARE those things, can not inherit. Otherwise, Paul's saying "KNOW YOU NOT" would be irrelevant for Paul is speaking to believers -- who could retort; "no I don't know that because it's not really true."
OTOH: The Gospel, however, really, truly, and explicitly teaches that there is an unforgivable sin, a sin which perpetually prevents one from entering heaven:
Matth 12:31 Wherefore [a conclusion of an argument]I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matth 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jesus explicitly teaches about sin which can't be forgiven NOW, and which can't (shall not) be forgiven after death which PROVES it's a sin beyond the cross. The English translation doesn't clearly show why -- but in the Greek, the sinning (against the H.S.) is in the continuous present tense; eg: the inference is that a sin STILL being committed, continuously, is eternal by definition; and a sin can't be forgiven *while* it is still being committed. ( Even from the cross, there is forgiveness for they know not what they do ... BUT there are *also* quotes of psalms by Jesus that curse, depending on what the person was or was not doing/sinning at the moment of Jesus' death eliciting Jesus' response. Prephetical of the cross is Psalm 69:21, 28 ; etc. )
BUT: To condemn lawful obedience, mercy, doing good -- as perverted, un-necessary to the Gospel, and something God doesn't demand; that is the true perversion of Gospel. SALVATION is CONDITIONAL under NORMAL circumstances (and there can be exceptions, but they aren't the NORM.)
For, the Gospel teaches repeatedly -- "IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
savedbygrace57 said:
And you're judging people, and not arguments ... perpetually...
By the same standards you judge, you provide potential for yourself to be condemned. (Luke 6:37)
Consider: Is your view of the gospel acquittal of the sinner that of a Justified acquittal, or is it a merely a "legalization" of sinning so that we might "get out of hell free"? (The converse of Genesis 18:25-26 ... if I find ONE righteous on the cross, I'll not only spare em all, but "LEGALISTICALLY" acquit them?)
1Cori 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cori 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Cori 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
None of the sins listed can co-exist with Jesus as Christ in heaven. That's what it means -- they shall not inherit.
People who WERE these things, but are no longer -- they CAN inherit the kingdom of God ; but those who ARE those things, can not inherit. Otherwise, Paul's saying "KNOW YOU NOT" would be irrelevant for Paul is speaking to believers -- who could retort; "no I don't know that because it's not really true."
OTOH: The Gospel, however, really, truly, and explicitly teaches that there is an unforgivable sin, a sin which perpetually prevents one from entering heaven:
Matth 12:31 Wherefore [a conclusion of an argument]I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matth 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Jesus explicitly teaches about sin which can't be forgiven NOW, and which can't (shall not) be forgiven after death which PROVES it's a sin beyond the cross. The English translation doesn't clearly show why -- but in the Greek, the sinning (against the H.S.) is in the continuous present tense; eg: the inference is that a sin STILL being committed, continuously, is eternal by definition; and a sin can't be forgiven *while* it is still being committed. ( Even from the cross, there is forgiveness for they know not what they do ... BUT there are *also* quotes of psalms by Jesus that curse, depending on what the person was or was not doing/sinning at the moment of Jesus' death eliciting Jesus' response. Prephetical of the cross is Psalm 69:21, 28 ; etc. )
BUT: To condemn lawful obedience, mercy, doing good -- as perverted, un-necessary to the Gospel, and something God doesn't demand; that is the true perversion of Gospel. SALVATION is CONDITIONAL under NORMAL circumstances (and there can be exceptions, but they aren't the NORM.)
For, the Gospel teaches repeatedly -- "IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."
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savedbygrace57
Guest
The World God Saved !
For God to save the World Jn 3:17, He did not have to save everyone in it without exception and does not, for if He saved 1,2,3, or 1000 persons, He saved the World of His Purpose. As many as God ultimately saves or has saved, He saved the World that He Loved Jn 3:16,17. For this present kosmos /world exists for those who belong to Christ, His Church 1 Cor 3:21-22
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
This is God's World that He saved ! Now lets remember who Paul wrote these words to in Vs 16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If God saved His Temple, He saves the World. Lets remember who defines World, its the greek word kosmos:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
Remember God's Temple in the OT and the orderly arrangement given to construct it ? and to serve God in it ?
That's the World God Loved and Saved, His Temple 595
For God to save the World Jn 3:17, He did not have to save everyone in it without exception and does not, for if He saved 1,2,3, or 1000 persons, He saved the World of His Purpose. As many as God ultimately saves or has saved, He saved the World that He Loved Jn 3:16,17. For this present kosmos /world exists for those who belong to Christ, His Church 1 Cor 3:21-22
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;
22 Whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are your's;
23 And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.
This is God's World that He saved ! Now lets remember who Paul wrote these words to in Vs 16
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If God saved His Temple, He saves the World. Lets remember who defines World, its the greek word kosmos:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3
3) the world, the universe
4) the circle of the earth, the earth
5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ
7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly
a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ
8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort
a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)
Remember God's Temple in the OT and the orderly arrangement given to construct it ? and to serve God in it ?
That's the World God Loved and Saved, His Temple 595
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Faith in God is of the Law !
Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Yes, Jesus identifies Faith as one of the more weighter matters of the Law.
First and foremost He means Faith or Believing in God ! Jn 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
1 Pet 1:21
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Faith here is Matt 23:23 means True spirituality, reverence, fear, Love and obedience unto God in Christ. The Law was given as a school master to Faith in Christ Gal 3:24, and True believing jews looked forward to Christ's Cross Work.
So now if we claim to be saved because of our Faith or act of believing, then we say we are saved by keeping one of the weightier matters of the Law, which Jesus says is Faith Matt 23:23, and this cannot be denied ! This is an automatic conclusion if we say Faith is a condition of man to perform in order for God to save or Justify us before Himself !596
Matt 23:23
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Yes, Jesus identifies Faith as one of the more weighter matters of the Law.
First and foremost He means Faith or Believing in God ! Jn 14:1
Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
1 Pet 1:21
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Faith here is Matt 23:23 means True spirituality, reverence, fear, Love and obedience unto God in Christ. The Law was given as a school master to Faith in Christ Gal 3:24, and True believing jews looked forward to Christ's Cross Work.
So now if we claim to be saved because of our Faith or act of believing, then we say we are saved by keeping one of the weightier matters of the Law, which Jesus says is Faith Matt 23:23, and this cannot be denied ! This is an automatic conclusion if we say Faith is a condition of man to perform in order for God to save or Justify us before Himself !596
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
What his soul desireth, even that he doeth !
If God wills all men without exception to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And if He is as Job describes Him here Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
And if its like how Daniel writes Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to hiswill/desire in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Then how is it that the all He wills to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, not do just that ?
My testimony is that the all in 1 Tim 2:4 shall be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth orJob 23:13 and Dan 4:35 bare a false witness about God's desires ! The rest of mankind who does not be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, were not included in the all men of 1 Tim 2:4, just that simple !597
If God wills all men without exception to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth as per 1 Tim 2:4
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And if He is as Job describes Him here Job 23:13
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
And if its like how Daniel writes Dan 4:35
35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to hiswill/desire in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
Then how is it that the all He wills to be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, not do just that ?
My testimony is that the all in 1 Tim 2:4 shall be saved and come into the Knowledge of the Truth orJob 23:13 and Dan 4:35 bare a false witness about God's desires ! The rest of mankind who does not be saved and come into the knowledge of the Truth, were not included in the all men of 1 Tim 2:4, just that simple !597
Messenger
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
In order for 1 Tim. 2:4 to harmonize with the rest of Scripture, the "all" cannot be referring to individuals; but to people of all nations, ethnicity and rank in the world; that the Gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception. The same idea in verse 1 Tim. 2:6, "who gave Himself a ransom for all". The "all" is the "many" spoken of in Mat. 20:28 and Mark 10:45. Christ gave Himself as a ransom for "all of the many". For Christ came to save only His People from their sins (Mat. 1:21), those He elected to salvation before the foundation of the world! (Eph. 1:4-11)
GTG!
In order for 1 Tim. 2:4 to harmonize with the rest of Scripture, the "all" cannot be referring to individuals; but to people of all nations, ethnicity and rank in the world; that the Gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception. The same idea in verse 1 Tim. 2:6, "who gave Himself a ransom for all". The "all" is the "many" spoken of in Mat. 20:28 and Mark 10:45. Christ gave Himself as a ransom for "all of the many". For Christ came to save only His People from their sins (Mat. 1:21), those He elected to salvation before the foundation of the world! (Eph. 1:4-11)
GTG!
Re: Knowledge of the Truth
I've heard that many are called but few are chosen. Is that what you're searching for maybe?
I've heard that many are called but few are chosen. Is that what you're searching for maybe?
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savedbygrace57
Guest
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
messenger
Yes,the Gospel under the New Covenant dispensation was to reach Abraham's Seed out of all Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
God had preached the Gospel before oAbraham concerning them Gal 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
And Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God preached to them !
Correct ,and that many He gave Himself a ransom in behalf of shall have that testified to them personally by the Gospel sent to them 1 Tim 2:67
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
That word testified martyrion:
testimony, That means they will have the Testimony confirmed in them by the Gospel 1 Cor 1:6
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
The Testimony of having been ransomed/redeemed by the death of Christ ! Its not an offer, but the confirmation that it has happened !
Yes, the Promise of Salvation in the Lord was made for only one People Isa 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Israel here is God's Elect from all Nations, The Spiritual Seed of Abraham, The Church , the Israel of God !
messenger
Yes,the Gospel under the New Covenant dispensation was to reach Abraham's Seed out of all Nations Gen 17:5
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
God had preached the Gospel before oAbraham concerning them Gal 3:8
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
And Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God preached to them !
Correct ,and that many He gave Himself a ransom in behalf of shall have that testified to them personally by the Gospel sent to them 1 Tim 2:67
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not ) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
That word testified martyrion:
testimony, That means they will have the Testimony confirmed in them by the Gospel 1 Cor 1:6
6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
The Testimony of having been ransomed/redeemed by the death of Christ ! Its not an offer, but the confirmation that it has happened !
Yes, the Promise of Salvation in the Lord was made for only one People Isa 45:17
17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Israel here is God's Elect from all Nations, The Spiritual Seed of Abraham, The Church , the Israel of God !
Messenger
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
Testimony confirmed! Thanks for elaborating.
Testimony confirmed! Thanks for elaborating.
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
The man of sin !
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That man of sin is not any one person as is the phrase the Man of God refers not to just any one person
1 Tim 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2 Tim 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The man of sin is any man or number of men, that in the name of Christianity, have rejected the Truth of God, and teaches that which contradicts or opposes the Truth or what ignores the Truth 2 Thess 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Tim 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
For instance, to teach in the name of Christianity that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every single individual without exception, when the scripture does not teach that, but teaches that He died for His Church Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Or His Sheep Jn 10:15
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The Ethiopic version is said to render this :
"I lay down my life for the redemption of my sheep".
They are the man of sin because, because they are walking according to the prince of the power of the air, which is the spirit of satan,who energizes who are in the flesh apart from New Birth in Christ, so void of the Spirit are they Jude 1:19
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Paul writes Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And of course that explains why they contradict, oppose, and reject the Truth, having not themselves been taught by the Spirit of Truth !
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
That man of sin is not any one person as is the phrase the Man of God refers not to just any one person
1 Tim 6:11
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
2 Tim 3:17
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
The man of sin is any man or number of men, that in the name of Christianity, have rejected the Truth of God, and teaches that which contradicts or opposes the Truth or what ignores the Truth 2 Thess 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Tim 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
For instance, to teach in the name of Christianity that the Lord Jesus Christ died for every single individual without exception, when the scripture does not teach that, but teaches that He died for His Church Eph 5:25
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Or His Sheep Jn 10:15
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
The Ethiopic version is said to render this :
"I lay down my life for the redemption of my sheep".
They are the man of sin because, because they are walking according to the prince of the power of the air, which is the spirit of satan,who energizes who are in the flesh apart from New Birth in Christ, so void of the Spirit are they Jude 1:19
19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Paul writes Rom 8:9
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
And of course that explains why they contradict, oppose, and reject the Truth, having not themselves been taught by the Spirit of Truth !
S
savedbygrace57
Guest
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
messenger
Yw !
messenger
Yw !
About the Son of God
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
That is explicitly what Timothy says, and I will acknowledge the word is Thelema; which means a willingness, or desire, but not a decree.
1Timo 2:4 ος παντας ανθρωπους θελει σωθηναι και εις επιγνωσιν αληθειας ελθειν
It is one thing to say, someone does whatever it is they desired (and I might not know what that is) -- and quite another to say they have done everything and only what they desired and no desire was left undone even partially. (Let alone talking about others being forced to fulfill one's desires as an additional dimension.)
But, looking at Job -- there's another suspicious issue:
God is spirit -- not soul. Something's not right about your chosen verse and interpretation. Translational error ???
OTOH: I'll start with a reminder: The core argument I am building against you is the very fact that Jesus "Emptied himself" and became a slave (Philippians 2:6-8) showing that God does not have to be only master, but can in fact choose to serve. ( Something to be grasped at, for a slave places their own desires secondary to another's desires and needs. ).
And, setting that aside -- what you attempt with "Job" can be negated by a counterexample from Luke:
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
"against", means their rejection of God's good counsel, not that God counseled bad things to them.
Luke 7:30 (NIV) But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
And look at the original for more precision:
Luke 7:30 οι δε φαρισαιοι και οι νομικοι την βουλην του θεου ηθετησαν εις εαυτους μη βαπτισθεντες υπ αυτου
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/7-30.htm
So, we know that God went so far as to decree a purpose for the Pharisee and lawyers. It's clear, then, that scripture shows God does not get everything he desires, at least not without complications; and that is in spite of the fact that we know he has the power to manipulate individuals lives. The Pharisees refused to repent and be baptized.
I think something got garbled in the message.
The word "all", in Timothy, is qualified by the word "men". So "ALL" must mean a representative group of men.
But I will concede part of your argument that "all" doesn't prove every single man.
But: WIth respect to the word "men", though, scripture uses the word in two senses: one, is in the sense of a human being; eg: a man, or the "son" of a man.
The second is with respect to the proud, boastful, and especially the warrior and the wicked. Those who style themselves the model of what a man ought to be in his Glory and Power; but who often, in fact, distort the image of what man is supposed to be -- eg: the image of God is found in men who serve, but not as much in those that Lord it over.
In Timothy, Specifically, there are contextual clues that Paul is praying for unsaved sinners of the wicked kind, many of whom may in fact never be saved. ( Heretics? )
In a general tracing of ideas: Paul first alludes to his past life as a murderer, in (1Timothy 1:13-15); so that we understand a past time when he was not saved as part of the context-- (of course that changed for him) -- but then he follows up by speaking of another whom's faith is "shipwreck" (1Timothy 1:19); these men are essentially as bad as apostates, for Paul clearly tried to bring them back, but they refused him.
Which means, at 1Timothy 1:19 and 20 -- we are speaking of someone(s) who are putatively, "not saved". ( This isn't quite as bad as Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 6:6 although Hymaneus, Alaxander, etc. do claim all resurrection is over with/void/empty. But it's nearly impossible that they be reconverted if even PAUL couldn't correct them.)
Now, it's easy to verify the condemned status of Hymaneus and Alexander since Paul tells us they are "Handed over to Satan.". 1Timothy 1:20 ; So, this really is a case of Matthew 18:18 -- where an apostle binds a sin to a sinner (heretic.)
It is *immediately* upon mentioning this Satan's man, that Paul says -- "I exhort, therefore, first of all, .... prayers ... for all men." **
It is only after this "therefore", that Paul includes men such as kings (AKA: emperors John 19:12,15) who rule over trouble raising heretics...followed immediately by that special verse with the same curious phrase "all men":
1Timothy 2:4 Who will [eg
esires/wishes to] have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
So, contextually -- heretics are clearly part of "all men".
.... etc ....
I can accept that "all" doesn't prove every man; yet, I see no reason contextually, to believe that the word "men" has anything in mind other than mankind in general, and some of which are not saved.
-----------------------
** NOTE: Thanksgiving is a reference also to the Lord's supper; Eu-charist; which is part of a liturgical formulation such as the one found in Revelation 6:10 through Revelation 7:12, during which the very intercession, prayers, and thanks-giving *CAUSE* war to happen on earth. In Timothy, then, the context is a perfect match -- for Paul speaks to Timothy of war in 1Timothy 1:18. We are not free, then, to assume that because thanksgiving is going on that "all men" are good ones (eg: evil comes in grades, and the unsaved are surely more evil than the saved! Luke 11:13. ). In fact, the king of the day would be NERO -- the very man who's name adds up to 666. He ruled from A.D 54 to 68, and Hymaneus's heresy would be roughly the same time period, maybe 55 to 64 being the heyday of it; So, the heretics were heritics when Nero was being prayed for -- and NERO never repented that I know of!!!
That is explicitly what Timothy says, and I will acknowledge the word is Thelema; which means a willingness, or desire, but not a decree.
1Timo 2:4 ος παντας ανθρωπους θελει σωθηναι και εις επιγνωσιν αληθειας ελθειν
The same word, desire, or "willingness", is used in Job, to be sure. But it doesn't prove that God's desires are always carried out fully.
It is one thing to say, someone does whatever it is they desired (and I might not know what that is) -- and quite another to say they have done everything and only what they desired and no desire was left undone even partially. (Let alone talking about others being forced to fulfill one's desires as an additional dimension.)
But, looking at Job -- there's another suspicious issue:
God is spirit -- not soul. Something's not right about your chosen verse and interpretation. Translational error ???
OTOH: I'll start with a reminder: The core argument I am building against you is the very fact that Jesus "Emptied himself" and became a slave (Philippians 2:6-8) showing that God does not have to be only master, but can in fact choose to serve. ( Something to be grasped at, for a slave places their own desires secondary to another's desires and needs. ).
And, setting that aside -- what you attempt with "Job" can be negated by a counterexample from Luke:
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
"against", means their rejection of God's good counsel, not that God counseled bad things to them.
Luke 7:30 (NIV) But the Pharisees and the experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, because they had not been baptized by John.
And look at the original for more precision:
Luke 7:30 οι δε φαρισαιοι και οι νομικοι την βουλην του θεου ηθετησαν εις εαυτους μη βαπτισθεντες υπ αυτου
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/7-30.htm
So, we know that God went so far as to decree a purpose for the Pharisee and lawyers. It's clear, then, that scripture shows God does not get everything he desires, at least not without complications; and that is in spite of the fact that we know he has the power to manipulate individuals lives. The Pharisees refused to repent and be baptized.
You are claiming that scripture bears false witness?!
I think something got garbled in the message.
The word "all", in Timothy, is qualified by the word "men". So "ALL" must mean a representative group of men.
But I will concede part of your argument that "all" doesn't prove every single man.
But: WIth respect to the word "men", though, scripture uses the word in two senses: one, is in the sense of a human being; eg: a man, or the "son" of a man.
The second is with respect to the proud, boastful, and especially the warrior and the wicked. Those who style themselves the model of what a man ought to be in his Glory and Power; but who often, in fact, distort the image of what man is supposed to be -- eg: the image of God is found in men who serve, but not as much in those that Lord it over.
In Timothy, Specifically, there are contextual clues that Paul is praying for unsaved sinners of the wicked kind, many of whom may in fact never be saved. ( Heretics? )
In a general tracing of ideas: Paul first alludes to his past life as a murderer, in (1Timothy 1:13-15); so that we understand a past time when he was not saved as part of the context-- (of course that changed for him) -- but then he follows up by speaking of another whom's faith is "shipwreck" (1Timothy 1:19); these men are essentially as bad as apostates, for Paul clearly tried to bring them back, but they refused him.
Which means, at 1Timothy 1:19 and 20 -- we are speaking of someone(s) who are putatively, "not saved". ( This isn't quite as bad as Hebrews 6:4, Hebrews 6:6 although Hymaneus, Alaxander, etc. do claim all resurrection is over with/void/empty. But it's nearly impossible that they be reconverted if even PAUL couldn't correct them.)
Now, it's easy to verify the condemned status of Hymaneus and Alexander since Paul tells us they are "Handed over to Satan.". 1Timothy 1:20 ; So, this really is a case of Matthew 18:18 -- where an apostle binds a sin to a sinner (heretic.)
It is *immediately* upon mentioning this Satan's man, that Paul says -- "I exhort, therefore, first of all, .... prayers ... for all men." **
It is only after this "therefore", that Paul includes men such as kings (AKA: emperors John 19:12,15) who rule over trouble raising heretics...followed immediately by that special verse with the same curious phrase "all men":
1Timothy 2:4 Who will [eg
esires/wishes to] have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.So, contextually -- heretics are clearly part of "all men".
.... etc ....
I can accept that "all" doesn't prove every man; yet, I see no reason contextually, to believe that the word "men" has anything in mind other than mankind in general, and some of which are not saved.
-----------------------
** NOTE: Thanksgiving is a reference also to the Lord's supper; Eu-charist; which is part of a liturgical formulation such as the one found in Revelation 6:10 through Revelation 7:12, during which the very intercession, prayers, and thanks-giving *CAUSE* war to happen on earth. In Timothy, then, the context is a perfect match -- for Paul speaks to Timothy of war in 1Timothy 1:18. We are not free, then, to assume that because thanksgiving is going on that "all men" are good ones (eg: evil comes in grades, and the unsaved are surely more evil than the saved! Luke 11:13. ). In fact, the king of the day would be NERO -- the very man who's name adds up to 666. He ruled from A.D 54 to 68, and Hymaneus's heresy would be roughly the same time period, maybe 55 to 64 being the heyday of it; So, the heretics were heritics when Nero was being prayed for -- and NERO never repented that I know of!!!
Last edited by a moderator:
About the Son of God
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
Scripture spends some time discussing why "Nations" are not saved, but individuals are.
A nation can receive the promise of salvation as it's caretaker, but (for example) one is not saved merely because they are a Jew.
If there were people who did not belong to a nation, say refugees, floating on a boat -- I wouldn't then say, that because these people have no nation -- that they aren't someone God cares about; and we don't need to proclaim the Gospel to them, take them in, etc.
So, I'm having trouble seeing how you are on the same topic as 1Tim 2:4.
For it focuses on "salvation" and "KNOWLEDGE of the truth" itself. The things individuals have, and do.
Adam "KNEW" Eve, is an experiential thing -- likewise salvation is experienced; so the word "knowledge" goes beyond introductions into the relationship itself.
The messenger, or preacher, or preaching (as an action), is not the same as the message, or the salvation.
The two are intimately related, but not identical.
A desire is not the action, it's the thing which preceded the action; in 2:4 we were discussing the desire -- in 2:6 scripture moved on to the action and historical developments.
The problem is that what God sends his son to actually *DO* doesn't coincide solely with one isolated desire, devoid of any reflection on what is necessary to bring that desire to realization under historical circumstances.
I *will* agree, however, that Jesus wasn't sent to die to save those who were not saved. Period.
Jesus being sent was not for something impotent.
But, that's a different topic from God both desiring to save every person in general, and for some unknown and mysterious reason, God could not save absolutely everyone.
I could also agree with you, without affecting my argument, that the "all" of Timothy 2:6 is the "many" of Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45 ; but, I think Paul might possibly have had only people in authority in mind in 2:6, and not all believers. (I'm unsure)
eg: Notice carefully, that when the topic changed from desire to what God did -- that Paul no longer says "all MEN" but rather, in verse 2:6, Paul dropped the qualifier. And he did this after bringing up mediation (authority), of which Jesus is not the only one to have historically been used by God. ( In addition to Angles, and Moses, Paul also says: 2Corinthians 5:20 )
So, the "all" of verse 2:6 may in fact be different than "all men" of the previous verses for various reasons.
Paul's putting extra qualifiers in like "to be testified in time" and following with a discussion of authority (his own mediation) confirms that something is obscured in the verse in any event.
The topic shifted from what was desired (1Timothy2:4) -- to what was done (1Timothy2:6)-- eg: from the general to the specific; and so it's not unusual that the people involved would also change from the potential to the actual ones involved.
I will sum up this way: Jesus came to save those who could be saved by the cross.
Scripture spends some time discussing why "Nations" are not saved, but individuals are.
A nation can receive the promise of salvation as it's caretaker, but (for example) one is not saved merely because they are a Jew.
If there were people who did not belong to a nation, say refugees, floating on a boat -- I wouldn't then say, that because these people have no nation -- that they aren't someone God cares about; and we don't need to proclaim the Gospel to them, take them in, etc.
So, I'm having trouble seeing how you are on the same topic as 1Tim 2:4.
For it focuses on "salvation" and "KNOWLEDGE of the truth" itself. The things individuals have, and do.
Adam "KNEW" Eve, is an experiential thing -- likewise salvation is experienced; so the word "knowledge" goes beyond introductions into the relationship itself.
The messenger, or preacher, or preaching (as an action), is not the same as the message, or the salvation.
The two are intimately related, but not identical.
But, in verse 2:6 -- the subject has progressed from a cause to an effect. And, the concept of mediation (not God alone) was introduced in 2:5 -- which has historical third parties, like the Angels (Galatians 3:16,19,20,39) so that there has been a topic shift.
A desire is not the action, it's the thing which preceded the action; in 2:4 we were discussing the desire -- in 2:6 scripture moved on to the action and historical developments.
The problem is that what God sends his son to actually *DO* doesn't coincide solely with one isolated desire, devoid of any reflection on what is necessary to bring that desire to realization under historical circumstances.
I *will* agree, however, that Jesus wasn't sent to die to save those who were not saved. Period.
Jesus being sent was not for something impotent.
But, that's a different topic from God both desiring to save every person in general, and for some unknown and mysterious reason, God could not save absolutely everyone.
I could also agree with you, without affecting my argument, that the "all" of Timothy 2:6 is the "many" of Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45 ; but, I think Paul might possibly have had only people in authority in mind in 2:6, and not all believers. (I'm unsure)
eg: Notice carefully, that when the topic changed from desire to what God did -- that Paul no longer says "all MEN" but rather, in verse 2:6, Paul dropped the qualifier. And he did this after bringing up mediation (authority), of which Jesus is not the only one to have historically been used by God. ( In addition to Angles, and Moses, Paul also says: 2Corinthians 5:20 )
So, the "all" of verse 2:6 may in fact be different than "all men" of the previous verses for various reasons.
Paul's putting extra qualifiers in like "to be testified in time" and following with a discussion of authority (his own mediation) confirms that something is obscured in the verse in any event.
The topic shifted from what was desired (1Timothy2:4) -- to what was done (1Timothy2:6)-- eg: from the general to the specific; and so it's not unusual that the people involved would also change from the potential to the actual ones involved.
Fine; no problem there.
I'm not sure you said this well; For your audience might read your sentence in the light of "the Jews are God's people in Matt 1:21" -- therefore, he came only to save the Jews. I think these kinds of qualifications do more to confound the issue than to clarify.
I will sum up this way: Jesus came to save those who could be saved by the cross.
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Deborah13
Member
Re: Freewill religion is the Man of Sin ! - Part 2
This is basic Calvinism. When the Bible says "all men" it doesn't mean 'ALL men". What it means is that the chosen ones, come from "all" different nations, races, genders, etc. This is what they refer to as God not being a respecter of persons. It's as if it says, "It is the will of God that men from all nations, genders, races, will be saved.
See the 'of'. So it is individuals but not All individuals.
This is basic Calvinism. When the Bible says "all men" it doesn't mean 'ALL men". What it means is that the chosen ones, come from "all" different nations, races, genders, etc. This is what they refer to as God not being a respecter of persons. It's as if it says, "It is the will of God that men from all nations, genders, races, will be saved.
See the 'of'. So it is individuals but not All individuals.