Futurist vs Preterist debate

[Brother Mike]

so you do think that LAW returns. ok i thought so. no females can draw close to god. see him.own land, etc. slavery etc. polygamy etc. paul said the blood of animals cant atone like the blood of Jesus. so the mosaic covenant is better? the jews will lead the gentiles to be under the torah? okay.

I don't know. I am finding it hard to actually prove there are animal sacrifices during the 1,000 years.

If you use the passages folks use to prove this, then........

Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.
(Eze 44:9)

According to scripture, a whole lot of us won't even be allowed near the place. That don't make sense.

 

[jasonc]

I don't know. I am finding it hard to actually prove there are animal sacrifices during the 1,000 years.

If you use the passages folks use to prove this, then........

Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

that is if you take that literally and out of context to be in the future for the millennium. johnd does.
(Eze 44:9)

According to scripture, a whole lot of us won't even be allowed near the place. That don't make sense.

 

[ezrider]

i take that mentioned as the jews kinda needed the sun to know the day to worship and the moon. they do mark feasts by the moon. He is saying the new worship wont need that. we mark easter by the moon of peshac being a week after. we wont need to do that in the new age. every day is one of worship but since you mentioned that literally, i also knew the height was tall just not able to recall how high until i reread the chapter.

I tend to agree with jason here. I had never thought of it that way before, but now that I have heard it, it makes perfect sense. The old covenant temple worship system required the sun and the moon to meet its obligations under the law. But the Glory of Christ exceeds the glory of the law, and in the new Jerusalem the temple requires no sun, for the Glory of the Lord fills it, and He is the Light thereof.

 

[reba]

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

 

[JLB]

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

So! Whats the point?

This is nothing like what Jesus said.

It was a dream. The things in the dream, represented something else.

The plain and literal words of Jesus were not a dream.

Jesus said he would literally come and gather His people.

That means just what He said.


Please learn to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB

 

[reba]

Most the Book of The Revelation is a vision...
As far as taking Jesus's words literally.
He said "this generation" Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Luk_17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[Sinthesis]

So! Whats the point?

This is nothing like what Jesus said.

It was a dream. The things in the dream, represented something else.

The plain and literal words of Jesus were not a dream.

Jesus said he would literally come and gather His people.

That means just what He said.


Please learn to rightly divide the word of truth.


JLB

Mat 13:10 ¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 - For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 - Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:34 ¶ All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 - That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.​

If you want to rightly divide the word of truth kept secret from the foundation of the world, then you'll need to understand the symbolism of parabolic language. Otherwise the 'plain and literal' words of Jesus will leave you wondering how you'll ever get back into your mother's womb.

 

[JLB]

Mat 13:10 ¶ And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 - He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 - For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 - Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Mat 13:34 ¶ All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 - That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.​

If you want to rightly divide the word of truth kept secret from the foundation of the world, then you'll need to understand the symbolism of parabolic language. Otherwise the 'plain and literal' words of Jesus will leave you wondering how you'll ever get back into your mother's womb.

Understanding WHEN He is speaking in parables and when He is speaking plainly is rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Many scriptures verify that Jesus will literally appear, and appear a second time only.


Jesus announces WHEN he is speaking in parable.

32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!


Even this parable is used to teach us the truth, of WHEN WE SEE THESE THINGS, we will know that His Coming is near, even at the door.

What is it we were told we will see, that will mark His Coming?

the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,

The very signs you say are not real, but parabolic language!

When we see these things, they will mark the time of His coming is at hand.

The things we will see are literal!

Otherwise we will not see them.

JLB

 

[jasonc]

Understanding WHEN He is speaking in parables and when He is speaking plainly is rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Many scriptures verify that Jesus will literally appear, and appear a second time only.


Jesus announces WHEN he is speaking in parable.

32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!


Even this parable is used to teach us the truth, of WHEN WE SEE THESE THINGS, we will know that His Coming is near, even at the door.

What is it we were told we will see, that will mark His Coming?

the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,

The very signs you say are not real, but parabolic language!

When we see these things, they will mark the time of His coming is at hand.

The things we will see are literal!

Otherwise we will not see them.

JLB

so when the stars we call the alpha centauri proxima and ultima fall to the earth. how will the earth not be torn apart? if its comets then how will life not die out from the darkness. one volcano called st.Helens reduced the earth's temperature for one year by one degree. imagine stars(falling stars big enough) hitting every continent and what they will do. but you wont see that.

how do spirits have eyes to see? the bible doesn't say the dead can see literally.

 

[JohnD]

Doesn't His shed Blood change us from being gentiles?
You are not Jewish by blood but you are not a heathen or pagan either
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.
His Word :
Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom_3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom_10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Correct.

We are Jewish spiritually through faith in the King of the Jews.

The verses you quoted (Romans 2:28-29) along with the distinction Paul made in Romans 9:6 pointing out that the flesh counts for nothing the spirit gives life (John 6:63) etc. indicate that the Olive Tree in Romans 11:16-26 is Spirit Israel / Spirit Judah into which we gentile born believers are grafted and the Jewish born unbelievers are grafted back into if they do not persist in unbelief.

This truth is opposed by two biases: Jewish pride or Gentile prejudice (antisemitism). I have been on boards where I have repeated these and many other scriptures to show it is biblical truth and I got chastised for repeating them. The very way we are to prove all truth. {sigh}

 

[JohnD]

so you do think that LAW returns. ok i thought so. no females can draw close to god. see him.own land, etc. slavery etc. polygamy etc. paul said the blood of animals cant atone like the blood of Jesus. so the mosaic covenant is better? the jews will lead the gentiles to be under the torah? okay.

No.

The sacrificial system will be rather a thanksgiving system reflecting back on the sacrifice of the Lamb of God whereas before the cross it was in anticipation of that once for all sacrifice.

 

[reba]

No.

The sacrificial system will be rather a thanksgiving system reflecting back on the sacrifice of the Lamb of God whereas before the cross it was in anticipation of that once for all sacrifice.

The there is not a return to the "laws" if one is broken they all are...

 

[reba]

Correct.

We are Jewish spiritually through faith in the King of the Jews.

The verses you quoted (Romans 2:28-29) along with the distinction Paul made in Romans 9:6 pointing out that the flesh counts for nothing the spirit gives life (John 6:63) etc. indicate that the Olive Tree in Romans 11:16-26 is Spirit Israel / Spirit Judah into which we gentile born believers are grafted and the Jewish born unbelievers are grafted back into if they do not persist in unbelief.

This truth is opposed by two biases: Jewish pride or Gentile prejudice (antisemitism). I have been on boards where I have repeated these and many other scriptures to show it is biblical truth and I got chastised for repeating them. The very way we are to prove all truth. {sigh}

Fritz kicked me off the "old Crosswalk" for posting Scripture .. I get that

 

[dianegcook]

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

 

[Sinthesis]

Understanding WHEN He is speaking in parables and when He is speaking plainly is rightly dividing the word of truth.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn.

Many scriptures verify that Jesus will literally appear, and appear a second time only.


Jesus announces WHEN he is speaking in parable.

32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!


Even this parable is used to teach us the truth, of WHEN WE SEE THESE THINGS, we will know that His Coming is near, even at the door.

What is it we were told we will see, that will mark His Coming?

the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven,

The very signs you say are not real, but parabolic language!

When we see these things, they will mark the time of His coming is at hand.

The things we will see are literal!

Otherwise we will not see them.

JLB

Nobody is saying Jesus won't literally appear a second time, future to us.

The signs Jesus speaks of in Matt 24 are very real. However, the signs in the sky you are looking for are symbolic, and meant to convey the despair that accompanies God's judgment. Students of the Old Testament will notice these symbols of judgment have already been experienced by Belshazzar's Babylon (Isa 13 & Dan 5) and were prophesied by Joel to come upon those who cling to the old Mosaic covenant (Joe 2).

Scripture provides us with the other side to this symbolic language for those rescued by God.

Isa 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.​

Challenge your assumptions.

 

[ezrider]

Nobody is saying Jesus won't literally appear a second time, future to us.

The signs Jesus speaks of in Matt 24 are very real. However, the signs in the sky you are looking for are symbolic, and meant to convey the despair that accompanies God's judgment. Students of the Old Testament will notice these symbols of judgment have already been experienced by Belshazzar's Babylon (Isa 13 & Dan 5) and were prophesied by Joel to come upon those who cling to the old Mosaic covenant (Joe 2).

Scripture provides us with the other side to this symbolic language for those rescued by God.

Isa 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.​

Challenge your assumptions.

Thanks for that scripture reference Sinthesis. In going back to look at the rest of the scripture from Isaiah 30, it is especially interesting to note that the "breach" was created because they took counsel, but not of God, and they covered themselves, but not with His Spirit.

Isaiah 30:1-3
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the Lord,
that take counsel, but not of me;
and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit,
that they may add sin to sin:
That walk to go down into Egypt,
and have not asked at my mouth;
to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh,
and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame,
and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.

They trusted in the counsel of Moses. They covered themselves with the covenant of Law, and did trust in its shadow, yet never took counsel of God, nor allow themselves to be covered with His Spirit. But the breach has been closed and the wounds healed in Christ. He hath fulfilled the promise of God as He has sent forth the Holy Spirit to come and make his abode within our heart. This was the promise of his coming, that he would send forth his Spirit: this was seen and witnessed and testified of on the day of Pentecost.

How many today remain as the rebellious children, trusting to the counsel of their Bibles, but not the counsel that comes from the Lord. Covering themselves in the sacrificial blood to blot out their sins, rather than covering themselves with the Spirit and the Grace that come therewith. They trust in the counsel of their Bible, but to their own confusion and shame, for without the Spirit of the Lord to guide you, they are idle words in the page of a book.

For anyone who remains so focused on a physical second coming sometime in the future, have you actually taken the time to learn of the significance concerning the promise of Jesus when he said he would send forth the Comforter? If you are so focused on what you believe to be one singular future event, do you ever take the time to try and understand your relationship to the Lord in this present moment?

The Scripture says that the Just shall live by Faith. Jesus said take no thought for tomorrow. Be careful that your assumptions about a future, or your beliefs about the past for that matter do not become a blinder and a hindrance to communion with Lord through His Spirit at this very present moment. But as it is written in the scripture, some live by the temple, while others wait at the altar (1 Cor 9:13).

 

[JLB]

The signs Jesus speaks of in Matt 24 are very real. However, the signs in the sky you are looking for are symbolic,

Totally and completely disagree

Jesus said to look for these signs.

He gave the signs to look for just before he returns.

Why in the world would you try to deceive people otherwise.

Jesus said there would be those who deceive.


JLB

 

[jasonc]

No.

The sacrificial system will be rather a thanksgiving system reflecting back on the sacrifice of the Lamb of God whereas before the cross it was in anticipation of that once for all sacrifice.

show me that in Ezekiel 40-48 where its says that? there is a thanksgiving offering. im a jew, I don't need to be reminded of my history to know whom jesus did and what he did and why in that manner.

so cutting my penis in that ritual is thanksgiving? that command doesn't have death if I fail to do that? women who don't have that cant see jesus? after all it says that Lord will not allow any uncircumcised male before him. in heart or flesh. women couldn't enter the Holy of Holies. Jesus died to change that.

 

[jasonc]

Nobody is saying Jesus won't literally appear a second time, future to us.

The signs Jesus speaks of in Matt 24 are very real. However, the signs in the sky you are looking for are symbolic, and meant to convey the despair that accompanies God's judgment. Students of the Old Testament will notice these symbols of judgment have already been experienced by Belshazzar's Babylon (Isa 13 & Dan 5) and were prophesied by Joel to come upon those who cling to the old Mosaic covenant (Joe 2).

Scripture provides us with the other side to this symbolic language for those rescued by God.

Isa 30:26 - Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound.​

Challenge your assumptions.

they take that literally yet not this.
and the stars in their courses fought against sisera. not seeing that the stars are the twelve tribes.

 

[Lloyd]

so when the stars we call the alpha centauri proxima and ultima fall to the earth. how will the earth not be torn apart? if its comets then how will life not die out from the darkness. one volcano called st.Helens reduced the earth's temperature for one year by one degree. imagine stars(falling stars big enough) hitting every continent and what they will do. but you wont see that.

how do spirits have eyes to see? the bible doesn't say the dead can see literally.

Hi Jason,

I think we need to be careful when questioning what God can do, based on our earthly 'wisdom'. Using that exact same logic we could question how a virgin gave birth to a son, how the sea was parted and created a path for the Israelites to walk through, or how Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego survived the furnance of fire, or how a donkey spoke to Balaam, or how Joshua stopped the Sun, or how 5 loaves and 3 fishes fed 5000 people, or how water turned into wine, or how the blind could see, the lame could walk, and all the countless other miracles and events that God created.

How awesome truly is our creator. The living God. All praise and glory to Him. Man, I am so thankful to know him, if even in my limited capacity. I have little idea of the end times if I am honest, but should these events be literal or not, the Lord indeed is truly magnificent and my trust is in Him. Praise be to God always.