Futurist vs Preterist debate

[jasonc]

I think discernment is needed when working out what's literal or symbolic. I guess, in this particular instance, I believe this event to be literal, but as you stated, there are many symbolic references so I certainly understand where you're coming from.

I genuinely believe that this event is real and not symbolic. There isn't a time span associated to this event, but what we do know is that it happens just before Jesus returns, and immediately after the tribulation. So, it could be an event that lasts a short time (just a thought) before Jesus appears in the clouds, so any questioning of the "physics" as to why this can't be literal may be null and void as by the time the stars start falling, the Angels are gathering the elect. The earth, I believe, will be devastated at this point from what is happening in the heavens.

Here are some parallel scriptures:

Matthew 24:29: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky.”

Revelation 6:12-13: “when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth.”

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Amos 5:20
Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light-- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

Zephaniah 1:15
That day will be a day of wrath-- a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness--

Revelation 6:13
and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Joel 2:10
Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

The stars to me, IMHO, refer to stars (heavenly, not Israel) during the Day of the Lord. If you replace stars with Israel in the above passages, IMHO, I don't think it works. The passages above, again IMHO, refer to a literal event, not a symbolic one.

By the way, I am not saying you are wrong. My original post was to highlight that although events seem impossible to us, they are indeed not impossible to God.

I want to add this to your position that must be also literal on:
1) all of matthew 24 isn't fulfilled therefore those that jesus said some will not taste death till all these things must be 2000 plus years old
2 edom, edom's destruction has literal rendering of the sky burning and mountains rolling up. what nation is edom?
3) here isn't here? if so where is here?
4) all the tribes of the earth shall mourn yet in heaven it says men of every tribe, tounge , kindred and nation. so if its all the tribes, I guess im not seeing the connection every person since In heaven its everyone that comes from any group.
5) EGYPT must have a temple as God on a cloud hasn't ascended to that country per Isiah 19.
6) Egypt nor Syria are gods people
therefore given that if taken literally:
1) we aren't close to his return
2) or that position is off.

on edom.
http://bibleatlas.org/edom.htm

 

[Sinthesis]

The dual nature of prophecy is very important,when understood there would'nt be a debate.

A Source of Confusion

One of the best examples of a dual prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Many years ago, while studying this prophecy with the help of a commentary, I became very confused. At the time, neither I nor the author of the commentary understood the principle of duality. Thinking that this prophecy referred only to the destruction of Jerusalem, the commentator frankly admitted that he did not understand why Christ said that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those daysMatthew 24:29).

Today, we understand that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the second coming of Christ. We can see that He actually prophesied two events. Jerusalem's destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.

This particular prophecy highlights how vital it is to understand the duality principle. Many early Christians did not understand that the Olivet Prophecy was dual and fully expected Christ to return after the destruction of Jerusalem. When He failed to appear, some were very disappointed and disillusioned. Some lost faith and stopped believing. This disappointment was a major factor in causing the church to fall into apostasy in the closing decades of the first century.

Failure to understand the duality of prophecy also played a role in the Jews' rejection of Christ. The Jews thought (and still think) the Messiah would come as a conquering, human king to restore Israel to its former wealth and power. This idea was based on the many prophecies in the Old Testament which are actually describing the second coming of Christ and His millennial reign. An understanding of this principle of duality, along with careful study of the many prophecies showing the suffering and death of the Messiah, may have prevented this tragic error.

The type often stops short of fulfilling the whole prophecy. Jesus pointed out a very clear example of this inLuke 4:16-21. On a Sabbath day in Nazareth shortly after He began His ministry, He publicly read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping abruptly after the first line in verse 2. He told the amazed audience, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." This portion of the prophecy was fulfilled, in type, during His earthly ministry. It will be completely fulfilled, as the antitype, throughout the whole world during His millennial reign. Had Jesus read any further, He would have spoken of events belonging exclusively to His second coming, so He did not claim to be fulfilling them. An astute Jew, upon hearing Christ's words, could have avoided the error that led them to reject and condemn Him to crucifixion.

The principle of duality in prophecy is especially important to God's church today. Many prophecies in the New Testament predicted the great apostasy which took place in the church toward the end of the first century II Thessalonians 2:3-12; II Timothy 3:1-8; 4:3-4; Jude 3-4). All of these prophecies are dual. The falling away from the revealed truth of God that occurred in the first century is a type of what is happening today in the church. We are witnessing some of these prophecies being fulfilled! Duality in prophecy is being demonstrated in our lifetimes before our very eyes!

What exactly do you believe are the defining characteristics of this late first century apostasy of the Christian church? It is easy to say there was apostasy, but how was it apostate?

 

[JohnD]

Jesus said 'great tribulation' He did not say the great tribulation .
the
T͟Hē,T͟Hə/
determiner

1. 1.
   denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge.
   "what's the matter?"
2. used to point forward to a following qualifying or defining clause or phrase.

We just see Scripture differently

He was describing a period (time) of great tribulation. Taglines "Great Tribulation" or "Trinity" not being verbatim in the scripture texts does not make them any less true.

Preterism must resort to these kinds of arguments designed to discredit futurism with other than actual scripture texts. I only see that you bought into this argument, but by its design it (not you, Reba) is dishonest.

 

[JohnD]

When in history has this not been true?

So, the reason for not considering this text (ergo the pen knife) is that in your opinion this is a text of such universal application the "in the last times is superfluous?

 

[reba]

He was describing a period (time) of great tribulation. Taglines "Great Tribulation" or "Trinity" not being verbatim in the scripture texts does not make them any less true.

Preterism must resort to these kinds of arguments designed to discredit futurism with other than actual scripture texts. I only see that you bought into this argument, but by its design it (not you, Reba) is dishonest.

Your statement is exactly why i make the point... I dont read it as as He was describing period 'time' .. He was describing tribulation .

 

[JohnD]

Not understanding how one says we are not going through the trib when Christ said He was'nt coming back till after the trib............

Aren't you equating the rapture with the second coming?

 

[reba]

So, the reason for not considering this text (ergo the pen knife) is that in your opinion this is a text of such universal application the "in the last times is superfluous?

I never said not to consider the text... no need to put words on my finger tips... i have enough trouble on my own... I simply asked the question. Which often goes unanswered

 

[JohnD]

But my point that you attempted to cancel out the meaning of the passage still stands.

 

[Sinthesis]

He was describing a period (time) of great tribulation. Taglines "Great Tribulation" or "Trinity" not being verbatim in the scripture texts does not make them any less true.

Preterism must resort to these kinds of arguments designed to discredit futurism with other than actual scripture texts. I only see that you bought into this argument, but by its design it (not you, Reba) is dishonest.

Honestly, preterism doesn't oppose the Trinity. Actual scripture texts don't include 'the great tribulation'. The argument that 'the great tribulation' must be legitimate because the emergent concept of Trinity is valid, makes the mistake of equating 'the great tribulation' with the Trinity(God). The idea for 'the great tribulation' needs to be able to stand on it's own.

 

[reba]

But my point that you attempted to cancel out the meaning of the passage still stands.

No i do not i just see it differently then you do.. I understand you believe i do ....

That is sorta like me saying i like Chocolate ice cream.. then some one decides for me that i must not like Vanilla

 

[JohnD]

No. Your point was (using your example) "when is this never the case?" that there is no difference between chocolate or vanilla ice cream.

The scripture did not say there will be no difference in time the way people are by nature. It did not say this would be unlike any other time. It went into great detail and specifically said in the last times.

Not necessarily you, but Preterists most often find themselves using the anti-scriptural arguments, the text doesn't mean what it says... etc.

Case in point...

2 Peter 3:10–18 (AV)
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Deborah13]

No. Your point was (using your example) "when is this never the case?" that there is no difference between chocolate or vanilla ice cream.

The scripture did not say there will be no difference in time the way people are by nature. It did not say this would be unlike any other time. It went into great detail and specifically said in the last times.

In the last times of what?

 

[JohnD]

History

Daniel 12:11 (AV)
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

After that no mo' days...

 

[JohnD]

In the last times of what?

BTW, is your signature meant to say Yoda?
I am behind the times (read all the J.R.R. Tolkien novels but never saw the movies), so who is Yodo?
Thanks

 

[Deborah13]

BTW, is your signature meant to say Yoda?
I am behind the times (read all the J.R.R. Tolkien novels but never saw the movies), so who is Yodo?
Thanks

Yoda is a wise old character in Star Wars. His speech order is grammatically incorrect for English. Sometimes the YLT's order, because it is a direct translation, can sound like Yoda speaks. One of our members pointed that out to me.
lol. Sometimes my grandson speaks Yoda speech, too.

 

[jasonc]

hungry I am. ordered a pizza I have.

 

[Deborah13]

History

Daniel 12:11 (AV)
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

After that no mo' days...

It says the daily sacrifice will be taken away. Where does it say ''no more days"?

hungry I am. ordered a pizza I have.

You speak Yoda, too.

 

[jasonc]

lol. yes I do.

 

[reba]

History

Daniel 12:11 (AV)
11And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

After that no mo' days...

So there are daily sacrifices in the Temple?

 

[reba]

Scofield style dispensational futurism is what i grew up in... absolutely accepted it as absolute truth...
What i see ( not saying this is what it is just my old woman thoughts) in it today for me .. Is the Cross of Christ.. The Sacrifice of the Son of God as not being enough.. Just as the Jewish leaders 2000 years ago wanted a human style king to free them from Rome... Folks to day are looking for a deliverance that is beyond the Cross.. I see The Cross ( that includes all it stands for) as the center of God's history... I see futurism as looking to rule and reign.. forgetting the way Jesus ruled... Down the lines of what Jesus did was not as He said "It is finished.".

I dont have fancy words .. i can not debate ....I do believe my brothers and sisters ( both blood and Spirit) who hold to futurism are every bit as saved and a child of the King as i am...