Futurist vs Preterist debate

[jasonc]

Hi Jason,

I think we need to be careful when questioning what God can do, based on our earthly 'wisdom'. Using that exact same logic we could question how a virgin gave birth to a son, how the sea was parted and created a path for the Israelites to walk through, or how Shadrach, Meshach & Abednego survived the furnance of fire, or how a donkey spoke to Balaam, or how Joshua stopped the Sun, or how 5 loaves and 3 fishes fed 5000 people, or how water turned into wine, or how the blind could see, the lame could walk, and all the countless other miracles and events that God created.

How awesome truly is our creator. The living God. All praise and glory to Him. Man, I am so thankful to know him, if even in my limited capacity. I have little idea of the end times if I am honest, but should these events be literal or not, the Lord indeed is truly magnificent and my trust is in Him. Praise be to God always.

I never said that, but if you kindly consider the first audience. mostly jews. then the argument of stars being isreal stands. god could have made the stars literaly form men and sword fight sisera. surely you see that problem. were you there? did you see it? that is the problem.

god would suspend physics just to cause fear and not slay them? make no sense. he darkens the sun by one third and no mentioned of the earth growing cold. just imagine winters in my state with the lows of 20 below and you might get the idea. imagine isreal in that state.

 

[Lloyd]

I never said that, but if you kindly consider the first audience. mostly jews. then the argument of stars being isreal stands. god could have made the stars literaly form men and sword fight sisera. surely you see that problem. were you there? did you see it? that is the problem.

god would suspend physics just to cause fear and not slay them? make no sense. he darkens the sun by one third and no mentioned of the earth growing cold. just imagine winters in my state with the lows of 20 below and you might get the idea. imagine isreal in that state.

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the response.

I'm not convinced the stars are the representation of Israel in this case. Could you kindly produce some scripture to highlight why you think this?

In regards to your 2nd paragraph about winters being too cold, then again I refer to my original post, we can't try and logically predict what God can do. It's the same as saying "Can you imagine a donkey talking to Balaam?". Well, it happened, as well a multitude of other things that are beyond our comprehension. So if God says the sun turns black and the moon doesn't give any light, then I certainly don't doubt that's going to happen, regardless if the physics of nature say it can't be done.

I guess it depends on where our starting viewpoint is. I see this a literal, future event, after the triblulation. That then shapes how I see this. I'm guessing you view this as past and only for Israel? Or am I wrong in thinking that? Apologies if so.

 

[jasonc]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the response.

I'm not convinced the stars are the representation of Israel in this case. Could you kindly produce some scripture to highlight why you think this?

In regards to your 2nd paragraph about winters being too cold, then again I refer to my original post, we can't try and logically predict what God can do. It's the same as saying "Can you imagine a donkey talking to Balaam?". Well, it happened, as well a multitude of other things that are beyond our comprehension. So if God says the sun turns black and the moon doesn't give any light, then I certainly don't doubt that's going to happen, regardless if the physics of nature say it can't be done.

I guess it depends on where our starting viewpoint is. I see this a literal, future event, after the triblulation. That then shapes how I see this. I'm guessing you view this as past and only for Israel? Or am I wrong in thinking that? Apologies if so.

the first audience is jewish. I think if you see revalation as a vision. which it is after chapter 4 and also parts before in some verses you might see my case. ie jesus is a on a horse. ok yet seen as a lamb with seven heads, each with seven eyes. is that literal?

the dead do they have eyes? yes or no in sheol? a spirit need not have eyes to see. balam's donkey talked and its mentioned, yet its not recorded. so tell me why im wrong in arguing that the stars could be made into men and fighting sisera? show me why that isn't the case.

 

[Lloyd]

the first audience is jewish. I think if you see revalation as a vision. which it is after chapter 4 and also parts before in some verses you might see my case. ie jesus is a on a horse. ok yet seen as a lamb with seven heads, each with seven eyes. is that literal?

the dead do they have eyes? yes or no in sheol? a spirit need not have eyes to see. balam's donkey talked and its mentioned, yet its not recorded. so tell me why im wrong in arguing that the stars could be made into men and fighting sisera? show me why that isn't the case.

I think discernment is needed when working out what's literal or symbolic. I guess, in this particular instance, I believe this event to be literal, but as you stated, there are many symbolic references so I certainly understand where you're coming from.

I genuinely believe that this event is real and not symbolic. There isn't a time span associated to this event, but what we do know is that it happens just before Jesus returns, and immediately after the tribulation. So, it could be an event that lasts a short time (just a thought) before Jesus appears in the clouds, so any questioning of the "physics" as to why this can't be literal may be null and void as by the time the stars start falling, the Angels are gathering the elect. The earth, I believe, will be devastated at this point from what is happening in the heavens.

Here are some parallel scriptures:

Matthew 24:29: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky.”

Revelation 6:12-13: “when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth.”

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Amos 5:20
Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light-- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

Zephaniah 1:15
That day will be a day of wrath-- a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness--

Revelation 6:13
and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Joel 2:10
Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

The stars to me, IMHO, refer to stars (heavenly, not Israel) during the Day of the Lord. If you replace stars with Israel in the above passages, IMHO, I don't think it works. The passages above, again IMHO, refer to a literal event, not a symbolic one.

By the way, I am not saying you are wrong. My original post was to highlight that although events seem impossible to us, they are indeed not impossible to God.

 

[JLB]

I think discernment is needed when working out what's literal or symbolic. I guess, in this particular instance, I believe this event to be literal, but as you stated, there are many symbolic references so I certainly understand where you're coming from.

I genuinely believe that this event is real and not symbolic. There isn't a time span associated to this event, but what we do know is that it happens just before Jesus returns, and immediately after the tribulation. So, it could be an event that lasts a short time (just a thought) before Jesus appears in the clouds, so any questioning of the "physics" as to why this can't be literal may be null and void as by the time the stars start falling, the Angels are gathering the elect. The earth, I believe, will be devastated at this point from what is happening in the heavens.

Here are some parallel scriptures:

Matthew 24:29: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky.”

Revelation 6:12-13: “when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth.”

Joel 2:31
The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

Amos 5:20
Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light-- pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

Zephaniah 1:15
That day will be a day of wrath-- a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness--

Revelation 6:13
and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind.

Isaiah 34:4
All the stars in the sky will be dissolved and the heavens rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Isaiah 13:13
Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger.

Joel 2:10
Before them the earth shakes, the heavens tremble, the sun and moon are darkened, and the stars no longer shine.

The stars to me, IMHO, refer to stars (heavenly, not Israel) during the Day of the Lord. The passages above, again IMHO, refer to a literal event, not a symbolic one.

By the way, I am not saying you are wrong. My original post was to highlight that although events seem impossible to us, they are indeed not impossible to God.

Great points here Lloyd.

If we also consider the Olivet Discourse a teaching and an answer to His disciples question from verse 3, it becomes apparent that Jesus is speaking plainly and literally to the leadership of His Church.

The Lord is literally expounding upon what He Himself spoke through the mouth of Zechariah the prophet...

10"And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


Zechariah goes on to prophesy about the Events of the Day of the Lord...


1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day Which is known to the Lord-- Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen That it will be light. Zechariah 14:1-7


...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

...in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.


These phrases from Zechariah, are the same things Jesus taught His Church Leadership, privately, on the Mount of Olives.


JLB

 

[JohnD]

Just for the sake of argument...

...while mere mortal men and women hash out which is which (literal or symbolic) dare we err on the side of future fulfillment or past?

Can we risk sloughing off the warnings about the Great Tribulation as long past if in fact it is just as likely that it is still to come?

Pascal's Wager... if as a futurist I am wrong I prepare for the worst for nothing, if as a Preterist I am taken completely by surprise and the people I could have warned are not warned in fact I assured them not to worry about it.

 

[reba]

Once again the Scriptures do not say 'the great tribulation" ... :tongue
Why as a futurist would one prepare for the worst? His return is the best...

 

[reba]

Just for the sake of argument...

Argue .. ARGUE.. in the forums

 

[JohnD]

Once again the Scriptures do not say 'the great tribulation" ... :tongue
Why as a futurist would one prepare for the worst? His return is the best...

Okay, get you pen knife ready. You need to cut out some scriptures... this for one...

2 Timothy 3:1–7 (AV)
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[JohnD]

Matthew 24:21 (AV)
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

 

[ezrider]

Matthew 24:21 (AV)
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

If the "great tribulation" was at the end of world, why would the Lord qualify it with "Nor ever shall be?"

 

[JohnD]

If the Great Tribulation was the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE how could he say "not since the beginning of the world?"

Hmmm hmmm hmm 586 BCE ring a bell?

 

[ezrider]

Isaiah 54:4-10
Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed:
neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame:
for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth,
and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
For thy Maker is thine husband;
the Lord of hosts is his name;
and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

 

[JohnD]

Isaiah 54:4-10
Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed:
neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame:
for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth,
and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.
For thy Maker is thine husband;
the Lord of hosts is his name;
and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

A great baptismal passage for one who enters into the New Covenant which it is speaking of.

1. Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation. We will either be martyred in the preceding believer's tribulation (the time of the patience of the saints) or we will be harpazoed (raptured) just before the Great Tribulation.
2. Believers are subject to the wrath of the world and the devil in the world, but the wrath of God that will be poured out will not be poured out on believers since God's wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross for all who believe.

 

[n2thelight]

A great baptismal passage for one who enters into the New Covenant which it is speaking of.

1. Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation. We will either be martyred in the preceding believer's tribulation (the time of the patience of the saints) or we will be harpazoed (raptured) just before the Great Tribulation.
2. Believers are subject to the wrath of the world and the devil in the world, but the wrath of God that will be poured out will not be poured out on believers since God's wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross for all who believe.

Not understanding how one says we are not going through the trib when Christ said He was'nt coming back till after the trib............

 

[n2thelight]

The dual nature of prophecy is very important,when understood there would'nt be a debate.

A Source of Confusion

One of the best examples of a dual prophecy is the Olivet Prophecy recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Many years ago, while studying this prophecy with the help of a commentary, I became very confused. At the time, neither I nor the author of the commentary understood the principle of duality. Thinking that this prophecy referred only to the destruction of Jerusalem, the commentator frankly admitted that he did not understand why Christ said that His coming would occur "immediately after the tribulation of those daysMatthew 24:29).

Today, we understand that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was a type of the Great Tribulation which will occur in the time immediately preceding the second coming of Christ. We can see that He actually prophesied two events. Jerusalem's destruction was the type, and the Great Tribulation is the antitype.

This particular prophecy highlights how vital it is to understand the duality principle. Many early Christians did not understand that the Olivet Prophecy was dual and fully expected Christ to return after the destruction of Jerusalem. When He failed to appear, some were very disappointed and disillusioned. Some lost faith and stopped believing. This disappointment was a major factor in causing the church to fall into apostasy in the closing decades of the first century.

Failure to understand the duality of prophecy also played a role in the Jews' rejection of Christ. The Jews thought (and still think) the Messiah would come as a conquering, human king to restore Israel to its former wealth and power. This idea was based on the many prophecies in the Old Testament which are actually describing the second coming of Christ and His millennial reign. An understanding of this principle of duality, along with careful study of the many prophecies showing the suffering and death of the Messiah, may have prevented this tragic error.

The type often stops short of fulfilling the whole prophecy. Jesus pointed out a very clear example of this inLuke 4:16-21. On a Sabbath day in Nazareth shortly after He began His ministry, He publicly read from Isaiah 61:1-2, stopping abruptly after the first line in verse 2. He told the amazed audience, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing." This portion of the prophecy was fulfilled, in type, during His earthly ministry. It will be completely fulfilled, as the antitype, throughout the whole world during His millennial reign. Had Jesus read any further, He would have spoken of events belonging exclusively to His second coming, so He did not claim to be fulfilling them. An astute Jew, upon hearing Christ's words, could have avoided the error that led them to reject and condemn Him to crucifixion.

The principle of duality in prophecy is especially important to God's church today. Many prophecies in the New Testament predicted the great apostasy which took place in the church toward the end of the first century II Thessalonians 2:3-12; II Timothy 3:1-8; 4:3-4; Jude 3-4). All of these prophecies are dual. The falling away from the revealed truth of God that occurred in the first century is a type of what is happening today in the church. We are witnessing some of these prophecies being fulfilled! Duality in prophecy is being demonstrated in our lifetimes before our very eyes!

 

[JLB]

If the "great tribulation" was at the end of world, why would the Lord qualify it with "Nor ever shall be?"

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:21

The "great tribulation" that Jesus refers to is associated with the end of the age, and also surpasses the flood of Noah's time in destruction and scope.

as he said, - such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The events of 70 AD don't qualify for this type of tribulation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If the "great tribulation" was at the end of world, why would the Lord qualify it with "Nor ever shall be?"

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

 

[reba]

Okay, get you pen knife ready. You need to cut out some scriptures... this for one...

2 Timothy 3:1–7 (AV)
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When in history has this not been true?

 

[reba]

A great baptismal passage for one who enters into the New Covenant which it is speaking of.

1. Christians will not go through the Great Tribulation. We will either be martyred in the preceding believer's tribulation (the time of the patience of the saints) or we will be harpazoed (raptured) just before the Great Tribulation.
2. Believers are subject to the wrath of the world and the devil in the world, but the wrath of God that will be poured out will not be poured out on believers since God's wrath was poured out on Jesus on the cross for all who believe.

Jesus said 'great tribulation' He did not say the great tribulation .
the
T͟Hē,T͟Hə/
determiner

1. 1.
   denoting one or more people or things already mentioned or assumed to be common knowledge.
   "what's the matter?"
2. used to point forward to a following qualifying or defining clause or phrase.

We just see Scripture differently