Futurist vs Preterist debate

[ezrider]

What does is mean in Hebrews 9:28 when it says He will appear apart from sin. What does it mean when the scripture says he will appear apart from sin? What is significance and how does it relate to his appearance?

JLB, you have not answered this question. You have leaned upon this scripture for your second coming theology, and so I ask because it stands significant: What does it mean when it say he will appear the second time apart from sin? If you can not answer, then why should I accept your interpretation of his second coming?

 

[ezrider]

Did Jesus come on the Day of Pentecost, or did the Holy Spirit?

Whats the difference?

 

[JLB]

Whats the difference?

One is Jesus Christ the Son of Man who died for our sins.

The other is the Holy Spirit.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

One is Jesus Christ the Son of Man who died for our sins.

The other is the Holy Spirit.


JLB

So you do not believe in the trinity?

 

[JLB]

JLB, you have not answered this question. You have leaned upon this scripture for your second coming theology, and so I ask because it stands significant: What does it mean when it say he will appear the second time apart from sin? If you can not answer, then why should I accept your interpretation of his second coming?

You don't have to accept any scripture I quote.

You are free to accept your theory that Jesus is really the Holy Spirit and that He already returned on the day of Pentecost.


so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

He will come a second time apart from the sins He had to bear for many.

Apart from sin means sinless, without the sins He had to bear for us.

JLB

 

[JLB]

So you do not believe in the trinity?

I believe in the Godhead.

The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.

These three are One. 1 John 5:7

JLB

 

[ezrider]

I believe in the Godhead.

The Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.

These three are One. 1 John 5:7

JLB

And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. You accept this coming in the person of Jesus, But why do you reject the coming of His Spirit? Are not the three one?

 

[JLB]

And the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. You accept this coming in the person of Jesus, But why do you reject the coming of His Spirit? Are not the three one?

I accept and believe the Holy Spirit was poured out on the day of Pentecost, while Jesus was seated at the right hand of God the Father.


JLB

 

[reba]

to both .. your points have been stated a couple time , Please accept you do not agree and move to the next fight ADMIN

 

[Sinthesis]

Sorry Brother,

Matthew 24:1-2 is not the Olivet Discourse.

The Olivet Discourse starts in Matthew 24:3 and runs through Matthew 25:46


If you would, please show the verse from the Olivet Discourse that shows the events of 70 AD, which would be the destruction of the Temple and city.


JLB

That is your personal opinion. I believe the preceding bible verses set the context for the olivet discourse so that readers can understand just what Jesus was teaching. A refusal to accept the natural continuity of these verses rips the olivet discourse out of context and allows people to claim it is about anyone and anything at anytime. However Jesus gave a timeframe.

Mat 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

It's the same generation, and Jesus' words came to pass just as He said they would.

 

[Sinthesis]

The prophecy of Christ standing upon the mount of Olives found in Zech 14 has already been fulfilled in Jesus and the words that he spoke upon the mount, for in His death and resurrection and Judgement that followed, the mount has been divided, and half has moved to the North, and the other half to the South. There should no longer be any confusion, for Mt Zion has been moved North, and Mt Sinai has been moved South, and a great valley stands between. Some still try to Glory in the shadow of Mt Sinai, holding on to their covering and promise of salvation. But those who follow after the Spirit, they should be basking in the light that does come forth from Mt Zion.

You can see the foreshadow of this in the division of the Kingdom of Israel into two kingdoms. The Kingdom of the ten Northern tribes of the House of Israel, and the Kingdom of the two southern tribes of the House of Judah. Jesus when he came was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Note Jeremiah 23:5-8.

Yeah, more or less.

 

[JLB]

That is your personal opinion. I believe the preceding bible verses set the context for the olivet discourse so that readers can understand just what Jesus was teaching. A refusal to accept the natural continuity of these verses rips the olivet discourse out of context and allows people to claim it is about anyone and anything at anytime. However Jesus gave a timeframe.

Mat 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

Mat 24:34 - Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

It's the same generation, and Jesus' words came to pass just as He said they would.

It's about Jesus Coming and the end of the age, and the signs that preceed His return.

If you believe He returned in 70 AD, then you believe the resurrection is past.

Has you body been resurrected from the dead yet?


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

It's about Jesus Coming and the end of the age, and the signs that preceed His return.

If you believe He returned in 70 AD, then you believe the resurrection is past.

Has you body been resurrected from the dead yet?


JLB

Jesus coming how? Coming to whom? The end of what age? What signs? Return to whom?
I don't believe Jesus returned in 70AD. Yet there are many ways to look at resurrection, and while bodily resurrection is promised, our Spiritual resurrection in Christ Jesus is more important because that is how He delivers us from the second death.

Jhn 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

There is simply more than one way to look at these things. The problem with communicating a different viewpoint to a hostile audience is that most often critics object to how any one particular difference in understanding conflicts with the overall picture they already hold. However, these individual differences are not supposed to fit into the rival picture, rather they harmonize with other differences, which when all taken together, form their own cohesive picture. I believe the partial preterist viewpoint better communicates the reality of a world changed for the better by Jesus. It can be summarized as optimism with Christ vs pessimism waiting on apocalypse.

 

[JohnD]

Quoted out of sync but accurately:

There is simply more than one way to look at these things.

On this we agree completely.

The problem with communicating a different viewpoint to a hostile audience is that most often critics object to how any one particular difference in understanding conflicts with the overall picture they already hold.

Not to mention how Preterism keeps reinventing itself every time it runs afoul of scriptural proof to the contrary.

For example your own version of Preterism:

"I don't believe Jesus returned in 70AD."

Trouble is, Preterism does believe this. As I pointed out many posts back. The only way a Preterist can distinguish the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem and Temple from the 586 BCE destruction of Jerusalem and Temple is to say:

1. God turned away forever from the Jews in 70 CE

2. And that Jesus returned in his parousia to vent / judge "this" generation

And others (who will remain nameless) here cite the fact that ANY prophecy has been fulfilled in the past as proof their version of Partial Preterism is true. So it becomes increasingly harder to convince those dear brothers and sisters in the Lord that Preterism is anti-prophetic relegating future prophetic warnings to a contrived fulfillment in the past.

Jesus coming how? Coming to whom? The end of what age? What signs? Return to whom?

Yet there are many ways to look at resurrection, and while bodily resurrection is promised, our Spiritual resurrection in Christ Jesus is more important because that is how He delivers us from the second death.

1. Please acquaint me with the passages in the Bible about spiritual resurrection.

2. Resurrection is of the body (Romans 8:23b).

3. Redemption is of the spirit (Romans 1-3, Romans 6-8).

4. The second death is a literal death of the body again (Malachi 4:3) while the spirit of the doomed lives on in eternal fire (Revelation 20:11-15 / Luke 9:44, 46, 48).

Jesus is coming in the clouds to meet his gathered raptured people (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 / 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 , Matthew 24:29-31, Matthew 24:36-40) at the end of the believer's tribulation / beginning of the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

The signs will be catastrophic change in the balances in cosmology we now enjoy resulting in darkened sun and moon and the moon turning to blood... not a one night thing but on going (Matthew 24:29-30a Revelation 8:12) in the orbital resonance hypothesis an offsetting of the pairing of planets in our solar system could result in a moon shattering near pass by of Mars (which may have happened already before where all the hoopla about he god of war Mars and the knowledge of its two moons in ancient times came from. The debris from the moon would block out 1/3 of the day and 1/3 of the night sky. Other accounts mention the moon turning to blood. In the near pass by Mars would appear to be about the size of the moon from our perspective.

The beast who initially affirmed christless Judaism (Daniel 9:27a) will blame Jews and turn to his ancient version of religion (Daniel 9:27b) neo-babylonianism (Zechariah 5:5-11) to his version of moses (Nimrod)... and when the Jews realize they'd been had they will become the refuseniks the Christians had been previously (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13:5-10), and this is what triggers the world coming down on them all at once in the Armageddon scenario.

Then Jesus will physically return (Zechariah 14:4) to the outcry of the Jews to save them (Hosha nah / hosanna = save now) and will smash the people who attempt to destroy the Jews by setting into motion a domino effect splitting the mount of olives resuylting in the valley of megiddo slamming closed on the 200 million man armies staged there (Micah 1:4, Revelation 14:17-20).

I believe that answers your questions for now.

 

[ezrider]

Trouble is, Preterism does believe this. As I pointed out many posts back. The only way a Preterist can distinguish the 70 CE destruction of Jerusalem and Temple from the 586 BCE destruction of Jerusalem and Temple is to say:

1. God turned away forever from the Jews in 70 CE

2. And that Jesus returned in his parousia to vent / judge "this" generation

And others (who will remain nameless) here cite the fact that ANY prophecy has been fulfilled in the past as proof their version of Partial Preterism is true. So it becomes increasingly harder to convince those dear brothers and sisters in the Lord that Preterism is anti-prophetic relegating future prophetic warnings to a contrived fulfillment in the past.

The events in 70AD in the destruction of Jerusalem had nothing to do with the resurrection. The events in 70AD were about the destruction and finality of the old Covenant, the covenant of death they swore to obey as given unto them by Moses on Mt Sinai. Jerusalem, as the center of the old covenant relationship to God, has already been destroyed twice for her sins and iniquities that reached unto the heavens as foretold by the prophets of old.

Isaiah 40:1-5
Isaiah 61:7-8
Jeremiah 16:16-21
Jeremiah 17:15-18
Zechariah 9:12-13
Revelation 18:4-6

Jerusalem has received her double portion already, being destroyed the first time by the Babylonian army in 568BCE and then the second time by the Roman army in 70AD. The Old Covenant is done, annulled, finished; it has passed away and has been replaced with the establishment of the New Covenant confirmed in the Blood of Christ upon the cross. The Promise of his second coming was the promise that he would send us the Holy Spirit, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the time of redemption. 70AD had nothing to do with the promises of the new covenant. The promise of His second coming was first witnessed and testified of as occurring 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus Christ when he poured out the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. And Again afterwards, many times. In fact the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to all generations from the time of the cross forward. And so each generation in its own turn looks for the coming of the Lord, but they do not look for the coming of his Spirit, they look for the coming of another. And so like all generation before them, they scoff at the word of the Lord and say where is the promise of his coming? And so for each generation the Lord calls unto them, and for those that look for Him, he appears a second time through his Holy Spirit; but the world continues on from generation to generation, with the judgement of God upon each generation in its turn. The judgement of our generation is now upon us.

2 Peter 2:3-9
That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us- ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[ezrider]

1. Please acquaint me with the passages in the Bible about spiritual resurrection.

Perhaps you would like to view my thread on the resurrection, and in particular scripture that speaks of a spiritual resurrection through the Spirit of Christ.

http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...t-do-we-believe-about-the-resurrection.58279/

 

[JLB]

Jesus coming how? Coming to whom? The end of what age? What signs? Return to whom?
I don't believe Jesus returned in 70AD. Yet there are many ways to look at resurrection, and while bodily resurrection is promised, our Spiritual resurrection in Christ Jesus is more important because that is how He delivers us from the second death.

Jhn 11:26 - And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

There is simply more than one way to look at these things. The problem with communicating a different viewpoint to a hostile audience is that most often critics object to how any one particular difference in understanding conflicts with the overall picture they already hold. However, these individual differences are not supposed to fit into the rival picture, rather they harmonize with other differences, which when all taken together, form their own cohesive picture. I believe the partial preterist viewpoint better communicates the reality of a world changed for the better by Jesus. It can be summarized as optimism with Christ vs pessimism waiting on apocalypse.

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
1 Corinthians 15:13

And again

For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
1 Corinthians 15:16-17


There is the resurrection of the dead, at His Coming.

All those who are His will be resurrected when He comes at the end of the age.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23


If your body has never died and been resurrected from the dead, then the resurrection has not taken place, nor His Second Coming.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen.
1 Corinthians 15:13

And again

For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
1 Corinthians 15:16-17


There is the resurrection of the dead, at His Coming.

All those who are His will be resurrected when He comes at the end of the age.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
1 Corinthians 15:22-23


If your body has never died and been resurrected from the dead, then the resurrection has not taken place, nor His Second Coming.

28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


JLB

I've never said there is no bodily resurrection of the dead.

 

[JLB]

I've never said there is no bodily resurrection of the dead.

If you say that Christ came in 70 AD, then you are essentially saying the resurrection is past.

For He will appear a second time, at the end of the age, on the last Day to resurrect the dead. Hebrews 9:28

If you are saying the end of the age was 70 AD, and Christ second Coming was in 70 AD, then you are teaching that the Resurrection is past.

The is only one second Coming, at that at the end of the age, whereby Jesus will return and Resurrect all those who are His. 1 Corinthians 15:20-23

JLB

 

[reba]

JLB let me ask you your thoughts on Why Jesus told Mary not to touch Him ...
Joh_20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

And here HE says this to Thomas
Joh_20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
The conclusion i see is He ascended and returned...