Futurist vs Preterist debate

[jasonc]

Again, there is a 2000 year pause in Isaiah 61:1-2a from the lips of the Blessed one himself.

Luke 4:16–20 (AV)
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

the circumcision is mentioned as a necessity to see the Lord. so Jesus is in the temple dwelling there during the trib and also the anti-Christ?

you said this earlier.

I believe the Ezekiel 40-48 is in the trib

so the sons of zadok are to come back first then during this time? if so, they should be on the earth know and known. for only they can minister in some of the areas that are "closer" to the Holy of Holies" yet nothing in those chapters about a desolation

 

[Deborah13]

But you are making my point. The enforcement of sabbath law was from the vantage point that Jews were in charge and though the outside world was a threat in those days they maintained sabbath law so long as there was no threat from outside.

Deborah, do you believe they would have laid down their arms on Saturday to any and all invading forces to keep from breaking sabbath law? Really?

I have know idea what you are talking about.

 

[jasonc]

I have know idea what you are talking about.

he is saying that the part where it says in matthew 24 about the shabat that the ac would have peace and the attacks would a surprise. odd since intel and spying would have to cease by isreal's hand. they spied on us more then Russia did during the cold war.

 

[Deborah13]

he is saying that the part where it says in matthew 24 about the shabat that the ac would have peace and the attacks would a surprise. odd since intel and spying would have to cease by isreal's hand. they spied on us more then Russia did during the cold war.

Ok. Still don't know why he would ask me that the way he did, though. Why would I think they wouldn't fight on the sabbath if they were attacked.

JohnD You said something about the two olive trees. If you mean in Romans I don't see a physical tree and a spiritual tree. I see a wild olive tree that is not the nation of Israel and is lost. They have to be grafted in to the good olive tree that has the good root. The one that the branch of Jesse came from.
Isa 11:1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.
Isa 11:10 And there hath been, in that day, A root of Jesse that is standing for an ensign of peoples, Unto him do nations seek, And his rest hath been--honour!

 

[JohnD]

Ok. Still don't know why he would ask me that the way he did, though. Why would I think they wouldn't fight on the sabbath if they were attacked.

JohnD You said something about the two olive trees. If you mean in Romans I don't see a physical tree and a spiritual tree. I see a wild olive tree that is not the nation of Israel and is lost. They have to be grafted in to the good olive tree that has the good root. The one that the branch of Jesse came from.
Isa 11:1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.
Isa 11:10 And there hath been, in that day, A root of Jesse that is standing for an ensign of peoples, Unto him do nations seek, And his rest hath been--honour!

But the point is that the spiritual is what separates the saved from the lost does it not?

Consider Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6.


So to which would we be grafted / regrafted in?

 

[Deborah13]

But the point is that the spiritual is what separates the saved from the lost does it not?

Consider Romans 2:28-29 and Romans 9:6.


So to which would we be grafted / regrafted in?

Yes.
God grace and faith in the Redeemer. That's what saved before the cross and saves after the cross.
We are grafted into the good olive tree.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember, that ye were once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,
Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
Eph 2:13 and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

 

[ezrider]

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

The Great Tribulation is the one that Jesus said would be such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That said, the Great Tribulation is unique and stands alone as such, making it the Great Tribulation, second to none.


JLB

King David was told that he could not build the temple, because his kingdom was one of war, but to his Son, that being Christ, that He should establish His Kingdom in a time of Peace and that He should build the Temple of the Lord. If I am in Christ, then I am in the Kingdom of His Peace where there is no tribulation, for the serpent has been cast out.

I am not planted on the side of a cliff clinging to a rock for survival, with all hope and assurance that I might survive the ferocious winds, or the battering waves. I am not planted where there is the threat of drought, where I must survive the blistering heat and the scarcity of water. I am planted in a goodly garden where the owner of the vineyard has created a hedge that might protect me from the elements. He has planted me in His most fertile of soil, and he cares for me with love and tenderness. He nourishes me by measurement that which he has given unto me, and I drink from the river of Life.

He tends to His plants that are in His Garden, feeding them and pruning them with a gentle hand, that He might bring forth the perfect fruit at the time of His harvest. His fruit will not be scored or marked by the elements of your tribulation.

 

[JohnD]

Yes.
God grace and faith in the Redeemer. That's what saved before the cross and saves after the cross.
We are grafted into the good olive tree.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore, remember, that ye were once the nations in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that called Circumcision in the flesh made by hands,
Eph 2:12 that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
Eph 2:13 and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,

So spiritual... yes?

 

[n2thelight]

Aren't you equating the rapture with the second coming?

I don't believe in a rapture period,Christ comes here,we go nowhere....The only thing is the change,(flesh to spirit)that shall happen to all......

 

[Sinthesis]

Ok. Still don't know why he would ask me that the way he did, though. Why would I think they wouldn't fight on the sabbath if they were attacked.

JohnD You said something about the two olive trees. If you mean in Romans I don't see a physical tree and a spiritual tree. I see a wild olive tree that is not the nation of Israel and is lost. They have to be grafted in to the good olive tree that has the good root. The one that the branch of Jesse came from.
Isa 11:1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful.
Isa 11:10 And there hath been, in that day, A root of Jesse that is standing for an ensign of peoples, Unto him do nations seek, And his rest hath been--honour!

I I RC, During the time of Maccabees they had to work out their ability to fight on the Sabbath, but there were still restrictions on travel even during Jesus time.

 

[Sinthesis]

And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Revelation 7:14

The Great Tribulation is the one that Jesus said would be such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

That said, the Great Tribulation is unique and stands alone as such, making it the Great Tribulation, second to none.


JLB

Some translations will have Rev 7:14 with 'the' before 'great tribulation', and some, such as the KJV, won't. However, none of the major translations ever have Jesus using the phrase 'the great tribulation' during the olivet discourse.

The difference in magnitude between the tribulation at the hands of the Babylonians vs tribulation by Rome becomes evident when one considers the condition of the Jews just several decades after the destruction of their respective temples.

 

[Deborah13]

I I RC, During the time of Maccabees they had to work out their ability to fight on the Sabbath, but there were still restrictions on travel even during Jesus time.

Thanks. I've never read the Maccabees.

So spiritual... yes?

I'm not going to say the olive tree is a spiritual tree because I don't have scripture that specifically says that.
But from the scripture I posted, I believe it is obvious that the covenants of promise, Abraham/One Seed, Davidic Convenant/Messianic, and the New Convenant are all covenants that are for all of those in Christ.
The old covenant made at MT Sinai, that God made with all those who came out of Egypt is not a covenant of promise in the same way. That covenant included/s physical land in exchange for not breaking the covenant. It is a national covenant, not individual. This covenant would include those who are the descendants of the physical nation of Israel.
Even so, not all those who came out of Egypt were Hebrews by birth, most were, and also would include the descendants of proselytes to the nation as well. Males who had been circumcised under the covenant would be part of the land inheritance. I'm not sure about the women, like Ruth. During Moses' time there were daughters who inherited land from their father but they could not marry outside their own tribe, so that the land stayed with that tribe.
Those before the cross were saved through the covenant that God made with Abraham based on faith not through the Mt Sinai covenant.
That is what I understand right now. I would appreciate any correction, based on scripture, from anyone reading this.

 

[JLB]

Some translations will have Rev 7:14 with 'the' before 'great tribulation', and some, such as the KJV, won't. However, none of the major translations ever have Jesus using the phrase 'the great tribulation' during the olivet discourse.

The difference in magnitude between the tribulation at the hands of the Babylonians vs tribulation by Rome becomes evident when one considers the condition of the Jews just several decades after the destruction of their respective temples.

Here "some" translations that use the phrase "the great tribulation", in Revelation 7:14

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NIV

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NASB

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NKJV

14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. American Standard Version

14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb; YLT

14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Holman Christian Standard Bible


The tribulation such as has not been, nor will ever be...

The Great Tribulation, meaning there will be none greater than this one.

The great tribulation is unique in this regard, and stands alone, apart from anything else.


25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.


on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth,


The Great Tribulation is worldwide in scope.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Mat 24:21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
Adam Clarke's Commentary
"For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luk_21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Savior, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.
2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God’s judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. 4."

Luk 19:41 And when he came nigh, having seen the city, he wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying--`If thou didst know, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things for thy peace; but now they were hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 `Because days shall come upon thee, and thine enemies shall cast around thee a rampart, and compass thee round, and press thee on every side,
Luk 19:44 and lay thee low, and thy children within thee, and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone, because thou didst not know the time of thy inspection.'

 

[JLB]

Mat 24:21 for there shall be then great tribulation, such as was not from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be.
Adam Clarke's Commentary
"For then shall be great tribulation - No history can furnish us with a parallel to the calamities and miseries of the Jews: - rapine, murder, famine, and pestilence within: fire and sword, and all the horrors of war, without. Our Lord wept at the foresight of these calamities; and it is almost impossible for any humane person to read the relation of them in Josephus without weeping also. St. Luke, Luk_21:22, calls these the days of vengeance, that all things which were written might be fulfilled.
1. These were the days in which all the calamities predicted by Moses, Joel, Daniel, and other prophets, as well as those predicted by our Savior, met in one common center, and were fulfilled in the most terrible manner on that generation.
2. These were the days of vengeance in another sense, as if God’s judgments had certain periods and revolutions; for it is remarkable that the temple was burned by the Romans in the same month, and on the same day of the month, on which it had been burned by the Babylonians. See Josephus, War, b. vi. c. 4."

Luk 19:41 And when he came nigh, having seen the city, he wept over it,
Luk 19:42 saying--`If thou didst know, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things for thy peace; but now they were hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 `Because days shall come upon thee, and thine enemies shall cast around thee a rampart, and compass thee round, and press thee on every side,
Luk 19:44 and lay thee low, and thy children within thee, and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone, because thou didst not know the time of thy inspection.'

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.


on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth,


The Great Tribulation is worldwide in scope.

The events of 70 AD were not, and were confined to Jerusalem.

Therefore it is conclusive that the great tribulation has nothing to do with the events of 70 AD.



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

Luk 21:24 and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 `And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars, and on the land is distress of nations with perplexity, sea and billow roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
This is so clearly talking about JERUSALEM being trodden down by other nations. On the land of Jerusalem there is distress, caused by the nations. The men who hearts are failing are those of Jerusalem because they are dying by the sword and being taken in captivity.
That word translated as 'world' is what?
G3625
οἰκουμένη
oikoumenē
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.
G3611
οἰκέω
oikeō
oy-key'-o
From G3624; to occupy a house that is, reside (figuratively inhabit, remain, inhere); by implication to cohabit: - dwell. See also G3625.
G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

Jerusalem was their world. Everything they did in their lives was based around that city and temple. It was their life/their world. Imagine what that was like for them, to see this happening again!

How do you get around the fact that it says, 'Jerusalem'.
Did God ever bring destruction on Israel without warning her first and giving her a chance to repent? I say no. So why would He in 70 AD?

 

[Sinthesis]

Here "some" translations that use the phrase "the great tribulation", in Revelation 7:14

14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NIV

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NASB

14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. NKJV

14 And I say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. American Standard Version

14 and I have said to him, `Sir, thou hast known;' and he said to me, `These are those who are coming out of the great tribulation, and they did wash their robes, and they made their robes white in the blood of the Lamb; YLT

14 I said to him, "Sir, you know." Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Holman Christian Standard Bible


The tribulation such as has not been, nor will ever be...

The Great Tribulation, meaning there will be none greater than this one.

The great tribulation is unique in this regard, and stands alone, apart from anything else.


25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken.


on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth,


The Great Tribulation is worldwide in scope.



JLB

Why do you suppose only some translations of Rev 7:14 include the phrase 'the great tribulation'?
And why do you suppose Jesus never uttered the phrase?

 

[JLB]

Luk 21:24 and they shall fall by the mouth of the sword, and shall be led captive to all the nations, and Jerusalem shall be trodden down by nations, till the times of nations be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 `And there shall be signs in sun, and moon, and stars, and on the land is distress of nations with perplexity, sea and billow roaring;
Luk 21:26 men fainting at heart from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
This is so clearly talking about JERUSALEM being trodden down by other nations. On the land of Jerusalem there is distress, caused by the nations. The men who hearts are failing are those of Jerusalem because they are dying by the sword and being taken in captivity.
That word translated as 'world' is what?
G3625
οἰκουμένη
oikoumenē
oy-kou-men'-ay
Feminine participle present passive of G3611 (as noun, by implication of G1093); land, that is, the (terrene part of the) globe; specifically the Roman empire: - earth, world.
G3611
οἰκέω
oikeō
oy-key'-o
From G3624; to occupy a house that is, reside (figuratively inhabit, remain, inhere); by implication to cohabit: - dwell. See also G3625.
G1093
γῆ
gē
ghay
Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): - country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.

Jerusalem was their world. Everything they did in their lives was based around that city and temple. It was their life/their world. Imagine what that was like for them, to see this happening again!

How do you get around the fact that it says, 'Jerusalem'.
Did God ever bring destruction on Israel without warning her first and giving her a chance to repent? I say no. So why would He in 70 AD?

No maam, its not all about just Jerusalem.

The great tribulation will clearly be world wide in scope, including Jerusalem.

Jerusalem is the key place where the great tribulation is triggered by the AOD event.

However it is a world wide event -

25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of heaven will be shaken. Luke 21:25-26

...on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;

...which are coming on the earth.

The trigger is the AOD, in Jerusalem, but it will affect the whole earth as well as the sun, moon and stars.

The Sun not giving it's light will be a world wide phenomenon, that will be devastating to all the earth.


However, Preterism must make the great tribulation about only Jerusalem and the Jews.

Clearly not the case.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why do you suppose only some translations of Rev 7:14 include the phrase 'the great tribulation'?
And why do you suppose Jesus never uttered the phrase?

Why do suppose Most translations do use the phrase the great tribulation, and only one or [maybe 2] doesn't?

Why do you suppose Jesus never uttered a word about the events of 70 AD in the Olivet Discourse?


JLB

 

[JohnD]

Thanks. I've never read the Maccabees.
I'm not going to say the olive tree is a spiritual tree because I don't have scripture that specifically says that. {snip}

I showed you Romans 2:28-29 / Romans 9:6 / Deuteronomy 10:16, and there are passages like the reverse Jeremiah 9:25-26 and other places to show throughout the Bible the distinction between being physically Israel and Spiritually Israel... and you cannot bring yourself to answer the question is the tree we are grafted into physical or spiritual.... that is amazing.

Galatians 6:13–16 (AV)
13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Who knows [what] this means???