Then we disagree about the scriptures that indicate we will be harpozoed (Greek) rapturo (Latin) 1 Thessalonians 4:17?
Edited Reba
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Futurist vs Preterist debate
- Thread starter Kathi
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Then we disagree about the scriptures that indicate we will be harpozoed (Greek) rapturo (Latin) 1 Thessalonians 4:17?
Edited Reba
Sinthesis
Member
Futurism bias distorting the translations. Consider the years the offending translations were done compared to the relatively recent emergence of futurism.
That's only your opinion according to your own personal interpretation of the Olivet Discourse. I believe the Olivet Discourse was all about the judgements in store for Judaism and that generation cumulating, generally speaking, circa 70AD. The accuracy of the Olivet Discourse as Jesus' prophecy of the events around 70AD is miraculous when one interprets them in light of the rest of scripture.
How about you answer my questions?
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?"
5 And Jesus, answering them, began to say: "Take heed that no one deceives you.
6 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and will deceive many.
7 But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled; for such things must happen, but the end is not yet.
8 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be earthquakes in various places, and there will be famines and troubles. These are the beginnings of sorrows.
9 But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them.
10 And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
11 But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.
12 Now brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
13 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
14 "So when you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not" (let the reader understand), "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let him who is on the housetop not go down into the house, nor enter to take anything out of his house.
16 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.
17 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
18 And pray that your flight may not be in winter.
19 For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.
20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
21 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'Look, He is there!' do not believe it.
22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand.
24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
Please point out for me where the language of the destruction of the city and sanctuary.
The Olivet Discourse, is Jesus teaching from Zechariah the prophet, about the Day of the Lord.
- ...in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives.
- ...Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
- ...It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish.
1 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
2 For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.
5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day That there will be no light; The lights will diminish. Zechariah 14:1-6
The Olivet Discourse nor the prophecy from Zechariah 14 has anything to do with the events of 70 AD.
The Lord will only come once [a second time Hebrews 9:28 ] with His saints from heaven, and that on the last day, the Day of the Lord, the day of Resurrection.
JLB
JLB
ezrider
Member
Please take the time to actually read what the scripture from Hebrews 9:28 says. He only appears the "second" time to those who look for His coming. The scripture does not say He shall appear at once before the whole world. He only appears to those who look for Him. Yet by the way you quote that particular scripture, you have no idea what the promise of His "second" Coming was.
Here is what the verse actually says, Edited the snark reba
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28
To those that eagerly wait for Him, He will appear for salvation.
This doesn't read to me as , He will only appear to those who wait for Him, and somehow not appear to the rest, for every eye will see Him, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn.
The point Hebrews 9:28 says, and that you misunderstood is; to those who eagerly wait for Him, He will appear for salvation, the rest will see Him, but not for salvation....
Hope this helps you...
JLB
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Before or after his ascension?
ezrider
Member
What does is mean in Hebrews 9:28 when it says He will appear apart from sin. What does it mean when the scripture says he will appear apart from sin? What is significance and how does it relate to his appearance?
7) Do not post opinions of another member's claim of Christian faith. (ToS 2.4)
Publicly judging someone as not being a Christian and/or not following Christ unless they themselves claim not be a Christian is disallowed. That's between them and the Lord. This includes judgments against collective beliefs or groups in general. Reba
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n2thelight
Member
Waiting for copy right info reba
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n2thelight
Member
I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."
The next five verses lay the foundation to what is called the "rapture theory". That is all it is, is a theory; and unproven idea. As we study our Father's Word; set aside all preconceived ideas you have about a rapture, and let's see what Paul is trying to tell the Thessalonians.
It is from these verses that the "rapture theory" was born. Let's see just how willing you are to bet your soul on it, when we take a fresh look at what Paul really said. Because that is what you are doing when you rely on it in the last days.
After Paul told the Thessalonians to live right in the community, and search their souls for sin in their lives, they were then to repent of any sin. Paul moved next to what happens when death comes to this flesh body. This topic is important to Paul, for it is the stabilizing factor to the Christian life. It removes the fear that comes from the unknown of ones death. Paul gives this information for one reason, and that is, that we not be ignorant as the heathen are. In other words, Paul doesn't want Christians stupid.
This concern is over "them which are asleep". The concern is over the loved ones that have died and left them, and their decaying bodies are out there in their grave. Paul is saying for us not to be sorry about those Christians who are dead and gone, for that is the concern of the heathen. The heathen's fear comes from their ignorance of God's word, and His promises. The heathen have no hope, for they believe it's over at the burial.
I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."
If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].
It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them."To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.
Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.
I Thessalonians 4:15 "For we say unto you, by the word of our Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent in no wise [precede] them which are asleep."
This, Paul states, is not his words, but it is from the Word God gave to him. Where? Ecclesiastes 12:7, that is where it is written.
"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord," this is our gathering back to Jesus Christ. "Shall not prevent them", would be better translated, "We are not going to precede [go before] them." We can not precede them for a very simple reason; the dead are already there with God. It is the only logical fact that can come from this. If you do not, or will not believe this, then you believe in soul sleep as the heathen do, and the hope and glory Paul is speaking of, for the Christian, and you are ignorant of God's glory. Whether victorious, or sentenced to hell, all the dead are now with the Father, and not in the ground.
Paul, in another writing, told us exactly; as far as the return of Jesus Christ, when we would be gathered back to Him. That goes also for when we would see those who are asleep [dead], and that exact moment is at the sounding of the seventh [last] trumpet. It will happen very quickly, in the wink [twinkling] of an eye. I Corinthians 15:50-54 tells us we will not go away to any place, but stay right here on earth. We are going to be changed into our new Spiritual bodies, and put off these flesh bodies.
Paul says, "Behold I show you a mystery". In other words, Paul is going to reveal something so we will not be ignorant about it. "We shall not all sleep [die] but we shall all be changed."I Corinthians 15:51 Changed to what? The same thing the dead are, and that is the subject. All those still in the flesh body, at a certain moment [the sounding of the seventh trumpet] will shed this flesh body [corruptible and perishable body] and take on the new "incorruptible" body. Friend, That is the hope and salvation of the Christian.
To document this, in I Corinthians 15:50 we are told that "flesh and blood cannot inherit", or face Jesus Christ in His kingdom. Christ's kingdom will cover the entire earth, and that is why the flesh body must perish. The time of this change comes at the seventh trumpet, which is the last trump, and stated in verse 52, "for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".
Those who are even dead spiritually will be raised in an incorruptible body. That is a body that doesn't get sick, or grow old; in other words, it is your spiritual body.
Why?
Because the Kingdom of God is where ever Christ is; and at the seventh trump Christ will be on earth with the saints, and setting up his 1000 year millennium kingdom. No flesh and blood body can exist in that kingdom. This is your "gathering back to Christ", and that is what the rapture meaning is all about. It is the time when Christ comes back to earth and the saints that are alive are changed and drawn to Him.
I Corinthians 15:53, "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
"Mortal" means "liable to die" in the Greek. At the last trump the Christians who stand against Satan, and his system, will have their immortality, however, those who fall for Antichrist and his system, will have to wait until after the 1000 years. "Corruptible into incorruption" is refering to the flesh body changing into the body such as the angels have, a spiritual body. Whereas the eternal condition of the soul is only extended to those who have not yielded to the Antichrist, For they only are the victors at the seventh trump. You put on immortality through Christ who set the way.
I Corinthians 15:54, "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."
Going back to I Thessalonians 4:15, we know when this will come to pass. It will be "at the last trump", when the alive in Christ are "changed", not flying away.
I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"
The Lord is going to descend, at the seventh trump [the last trump]. Why will the dead in Christ rise first? Because they are already there, and with Him. All we have to do now is go to the book of Revelation, and find out in detail when this will be. We find out what events will occur just prior to this seventh trump sounding, and then when we see these certain events taking place before our eyes, we will know our Lord will return to earth next. Then the trump will sound, and the gathering will take place, and we will be changed from our flesh bodies to our spiritual bodies. And not one day before.
I Thessalonians 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
There is no FLY AWAY, no dodging of the tribulation of the Antichrist and his system's deceptions, but Christ will come and establish His kingdom on earth, and you will see it in your spiritual body. Got it?
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Thank you n2thelight, 
Sinthesis
Member
It is helpful to let scripture interpret scripture. For the context of Mark 13:4-27 we can turn to scripture such as Luke 21:5-38 and Matthew chapters 23, 24 and 25; or even the first three verses of Mark 13 which you left out.
Clearly Jesus prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple.
Mat 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Indeed Zechariah prepares his readers for what the day of The Lord brings, and it just so happens that Jesus has already stood on the mount of olives, judged rebellious Israel, invaded the pagan gentile world through His saints, and darkened the heavens of those who trust in their own works to deliver themselves the promises of God. Everything Zechariah writes points to other scripture as partial examples (types) of what The Lord would do as He establishes His Kingdom. In the centuries since Zechariah wrote, many of these things have already been accomplished in Jesus' Name.
It is helpful to let scripture interpret scripture. For the context of Mark 13:4-27 we can turn to scripture such as Luke 21:5-38 and Matthew chapters 23, 24 and 25; or even the first three verses of Mark 13 which you left out.
Clearly Jesus prophesies the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple.
Mat 23:33 - Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat 23:34 - Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 - That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 - Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Mat 23:37 ¶ O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Mat 24:1 ¶ And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 - And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Indeed Zechariah prepares his readers for what the day of The Lord brings, and it just so happens that Jesus has already stood on the mount of olives, judged rebellious Israel, invaded the pagan gentile world through His saints, and darkened the heavens of those who trust in their own works to deliver themselves the promises of God. Everything Zechariah writes points to other scripture as partial examples (types) of what The Lord would do as He establishes His Kingdom. In the centuries since Zechariah wrote, many of these things have already been accomplished in Jesus' Name.
Sorry Brother,
Matthew 24:1-2 is not the Olivet Discourse.
The Olivet Discourse starts in Matthew 24:3 and runs through Matthew 25:46
If you would, please show the verse from the Olivet Discourse that shows the events of 70 AD, which would be the destruction of the Temple and city.
JLB
Did Jesus come on the Day of Pentecost, or did the Holy Spirit?
Jesus remains seated upon the throne, where He will remain until the Day of the Lord.
JLB
To all posters in general...2.4: No Trolling. Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.
ezrider
Member
The prophecy of Christ standing upon the mount of Olives found in Zech 14 has already been fulfilled in Jesus and the words that he spoke upon the mount, for in His death and resurrection and Judgement that followed, the mount has been divided, and half has moved to the North, and the other half to the South. There should no longer be any confusion, for Mt Zion has been moved North, and Mt Sinai has been moved South, and a great valley stands between. Some still try to Glory in the shadow of Mt Sinai, holding on to their covering and promise of salvation. But those who follow after the Spirit, they should be basking in the light that does come forth from Mt Zion.
You can see the foreshadow of this in the division of the Kingdom of Israel into two kingdoms. The Kingdom of the ten Northern tribes of the House of Israel, and the Kingdom of the two southern tribes of the House of Judah. Jesus when he came was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. Note Jeremiah 23:5-8.