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Futurist vs Preterist debate

Deborah13 said:
I agree with you about full preterism but I think that in all truth and frankly logic one must remember that when Paul said the resurrection had not passed it was Before 70AD. So in order to prove through scripture that the resurrection didn't happen in 70AD this statement by Paul that it hadn't happened yet, proves nothing about it happening a few years later.
Paul is talking about someone saying the resurrection had happened Before 70AD.

Prove it didn't using other scripture and one has an argument that will hold up.
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Deborah,
We know that Revelation was written in the 90's. So the Resurrection had not occurred until then. And we -- the Church -- are still on earth. Therefore it has not occurred as yet. That should be ample proof through Scripture and world history for your purposes.

Whenever men try to bolster or promote man-made teachings, they always get into trouble. The first five seals of Revelation have indeed been opened. The 6th and 7th seals are yet future. The wrath of God will be poured out upon this earth after Christ takes His saints to be with Him. Why? Because we are "not appointed to wrath".
 
Under its concordat, the United States entitles the catholic church to help formulate laws and control education, how are we to get the straight dope from an institution that rules over our education.. Move on to what? more of their version of things?

tob
 
i forgot to add, in 2008 i went to Catholic Answers forums and asked them for documentation, for that i received a lifetime ban, when i asked to come back because i hadn't violated their rules, they said No, its lifetime, must have hit a sore spot..

tob
 
turnorburn said:
i forgot to add, in 2008 i went to Catholic Answers forums and asked them for documentation, for that i received a lifetime ban, when i asked to come back because i hadn't violated their rules, they said No, its lifetime, must have hit a sore spot..

tob
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That's the problem with talking about the Roman Catholic Church.
If documentation is given, then that documentation will take a week to read and understand.
It leaves us virtually helpless to include this organization in any meaningful conversation.
I have a Catholic Catechism.
If I can't find something in there, I don't talk about it, usually, I think.
 
Roman Catholic Catechism;
Article 7
Section 1
#670
I says;
Since the Ascension, God's plan has entered into it's fulfillment.We are already at the "last hour". Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way; it is even now anticipated in a certain real way, for the Church on Earth is endowed already with a sanctity that is real but imperfect. Christ's Kingdom already manifests it's presence through the miraculous signs that attend it's proclamation by the Church.

Does that help explain anything?
 
turnorburn said:
The last time i did this management closed the thread, what you could do is do like i did, look it up, its in public domain.. Look under "counter reformation" "Jesuits and Counter Reformation" but you'd best hurry they've been closing some of the sites where i got my documentation.. like the one that showed how Rome has complete control over our laws and education by way of concordats, you know like the concordat she had with Germany during WWII

tob
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So you are pointing out that the RCC Jesuits wrote different views of prophecy in order to counter the claims of the Reformation that the Antichrist was Rome and the Papal authority.
That is true, they did. What is interesting is the Jesuits wrote two totally different views one Futurist and one more Preterist.
And then there is the Jesuit who was the very first ever of any writings about a secret rapture.

The Reformers did not teach a rapture, neither did they put Daniel's 70 Weeks, any part of it, out into the future. If you can find one who did please tell

So it leaves us to read the scriptures, study, and ask God to show us the truth.
 
The Reformers did not teach a rapture, neither did they put Daniel's 70 Weeks, any part of it, out into the future. If you can find one who did please tell
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The focus of the Reformers was on Soteriology, not on Eschatology. They were laboring to reestablish Bible Truth pertaining to salvation, particularly justification by grace alone through faith alone. Also the priesthood of all believers, as opposed to the Roman Catholic priesthood and corrupted system.

When we resort to "theologians" we generally go astray. The theologian Augustine began this whole misdirection by believing that he was living in the Millenium. The Reformers did not challenge him on this, as well as on other doctrines. And the writings of the Early Church Fathers, though edifying, are also full of doctrinal errors.

So yes, every believer now has the written Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit. Are Christians today really laboring in the Word? Are pastors and teachers really laboring in the Word? The focus today is frequently on entertainment and "feelings". Some pastors are even using "canned" sermons. And the Bible Answerman is not providing biblical answers either, while the Emergent Church Movement is attacking biblical Christianity.
 
Deborah13 said:
From what I have read, I'm not convinced that it was written in the 90's. What convinced you that it was?
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Christians historians are satisfied with this date, and there is really no reason to dispute it. See below from Wikipedia.

When John was aged, he trained Polycarp who later became Bishop of Smyrna. This was important because Polycarp was able to carry John's message to future generations. Polycarp taught Irenaeus, passing on to him stories about John. In Against Heresies, Irenaeus relates how Polycarp told a story of
“John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, "Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within."[41]”
It is traditionally believed that John was the youngest of the apostles and survived them. He is said to have lived to an old age, dying at Ephesus sometime after AD 98.[42]
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The reforners caught them wearing the emporers clothes, then when the counter reformation and the council of Trent came into being it made it difficult to expose them head on due to their disinformation campaign. We as Protestants have only to look to other Protestants and glean from their discoveries, but so much damage has been inflicted by way of deception the world readily accepts their dogmas. So what are we suppose to do, hide what we have under a bushell basket?

tob
 
Rollo Tamasi said:
That's really a non-answer.
Unless one reads the Apocalypse code, and agrees with it, no one will know what you are talking about.
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I don't agree with everything in Apocalypse Code, but it helps to realize there is a sensible way to understand Revelation other than what you've been fed all your life.
 
reba said:
This thread is about
Futurist vs Preterist
Not about the RCC
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Didn't Deborah ask something earlier about the RCC?
Deborah
"Can you provide documentation of this? Writings from RCC originators, etc.. Who or what should one read to verify this information?"
 
Yes she did She ask for documentation .. when reading the thread in context one can see the documentation would be acceptable..
 
Kathi said:
It only includes you.
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It includes me as that in part gave credence to what I believed to be the case. with futurism I must deny being a jew. not that it matters but since im of that nation, it makes it strange. I do what Jesus called them to do and well I don't get the land promise and yet some that deny him and then repent later in some future day do? they do have to confess HIM. I see no clear reason for the return of isreal. I can post what isreal was to do and it was to teach the nations the TORAH. Christ is greater then the TORAH!
 
Does this mean that unless its been documented by Rome we're not to post it, something like this for instance..

One of Satan’s greatest achievements in these last hours of the last days has been his deception of the Evangelical Churches through the Futurist interpretation of Bible Prophecy.

The originator of this false teaching was Jesuit Francisco de Ribera, who published it in 1585 in order to oppose the Historicist interpretation which identified the Papacy as the Antichrist and the Church of Rome as “Babylon.”

The Reformers were inspired by the fact that the prophecies regarding the great Antichrist in Daniel 7:2, 2 Thessalonians 2 and Revelation 13 are TOTALLY FULFILLED IN THE PAPACY.

To oppose the belief of the Protestants (which included the Churches of God) that the popes were Antichrist, Ribera formulated the teaching that Antichrist would appear in the future at the close of the Christian Dispensation -- rebuild the Temple -- abolish Christianity -- be accepted by the Jews -- pretend to be YEHOVAH God and conquer the world in three-and-a-half-years.

Ribera’s false interpretation was unsuccessful with Protestants until the 19th century.

An 18th century Jesuit, Emanuel Lacunza, had carried forward Ribera’s interpretation adding a few further deceptions of his own, publishing it under the title: The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. To deceive Protestants its author was falsely named Ben Ezra -- supposedly a converted Jew.

http://www.hope-of-israel.org/futurism.html

tob
 
turnorburn is your information a RCC writing or is it from some place else...
A link has been posted to verify the information, i guess, but it do not see the above statements connected to the RCC...
 
jasonc said:
It includes me as that in part gave credence to what I believed to be the case. with futurism I must deny being a jew... I see no clear reason for the return of isreal. I can post what isreal was to do and it was to teach the nations the TORAH. Christ is greater then the TORAH!
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Jason,

You do not have to deny being a Jew because futurism is true. What Jews today have to remember is that the Church = Jew + Gentile = one Body. You are in the Church, and Christ makes no distinctions within the Church, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature" (Gal 6:15).

Once the Church is taken out at the Resurrection/Rapture, God will resume His dealings with Israel as a nation, and eventually "All Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26). The kingdom of Israel will be redeemed and restored under Christ, and fulfil its eternal destiny, while the Church will be in the New Jerusalem, and fulfil its eternal destiny. Nothing complicated. Two plans for two groups.

So the key issue for you is whether you are going to allow your Jewishness to become a wall between you and Gentiles, or whether you are going to recognize that in the Church, there is neither Jew nor Gentile (1 Cor 12:13). This truth was not revealed to the OT saints, but revealed to Paul, the Hebrew apostle to the Gentiles.
 
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