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Futurist vs Preterist debate

The romans, egyptians and greeks are still among us in modern garb. The roman especially is deeply imbedded in the Western culture to which we are so accustomed. When I was teaching undergraduates, who were 'christian', it is easy to notice how often and how constantly they equate the Western views of politics, freedom, and other things too, as 'christian' when in fact the equation is feeble at best. Yes, we are in the world and must give to Caesar what is Caesars. But, that does not mean we must also equate Caesar's values with God's values out of a mistaken view that Western Civilization is different, a mistaken view that it is not Babylon.
 
We will see the the vast influence of the seat of this Empire again rise to power, as Prince Charles will soon take the throne and be declared the head of the Church of England.


Charles will become temporal head of the Church of England and take the title “Defender of the Faith.” He said that although the title refers to the Anglican faith, he believed the role involved protecting others’ freedom to worship.
“It always seems to me that while at the same time being Defender of the Faith you can also be protector of faiths,” he said.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/prince-charles-says-he-fears-for-christians-in-middle-east/

JLB
 
JLB said:
Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.

This did not take place in 70 AD, as the Romans went home as conquering heroes.

And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12

No Roman soldiers were strike with this, whereby their flesh dissolved from them.

The Roman Empire went on to rule the world for another 300 years.

That why no one you reads the bible takes Preterism seriously.


JLB
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2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 300 years would just be a drop in the bucket :shrug
 
bluegirl said:
The romans, egyptians and greeks are still among us in modern garb. The roman especially is deeply imbedded in the Western culture to which we are so accustomed. When I was teaching undergraduates, who were 'christian', it is easy to notice how often and how constantly they equate the Western views of politics, freedom, and other things too, as 'christian' when in fact the equation is feeble at best. Yes, we are in the world and must give to Caesar what is Caesars. But, that does not mean we must also equate Caesar's values with God's values out of a mistaken view that Western Civilization is different, a mistaken view that it is not Babylon.
Click to expand...

The ancient cultures of the Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks were all transformed by Christianity. Your students are right. Western civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values. It is a defeatist mistake to assume that somehow the ancient pagan beliefs of Babylon have overcome the Body of Christ.
 
Sinthesis said:
The ancient cultures of the Romans, Egyptians, and Greeks were all transformed by Christianity. Your students are right. Western civilization is based on Judeo-Christian values. It is a defeatist mistake to assume that somehow the ancient pagan beliefs of Babylon have overcome the Body of Christ.
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That was not what I was saying at all. And I agree with you in part. :)
 
reba said:
2Pe_3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 300 years would just be a drop in the bucket :shrug
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Reba you are not making any sense.

The Lord did not go out to fight against the Roman soldiers.

Then the Lord will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. Zechariah 14:3

The roman soldiers defeated the inhabitants of Jerusalem and destroyed the Temple and the city.

Zechariah shows that the city will be inhabited in safety.

The people shall dwell in it; And no longer shall there be utter destruction, But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
Zechariah 14:11

Was the city safely inhabited by the citizens of Jerusalem or was the city destroyed and burn along with the Temple, in 70 AD?

12 And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. Zechariah 14:12

Were the roman soldiers who fought against Jerusalem struck with a plague that dissolved their flesh and eyes, or did they go home as conquering heroes?

The Olivet Discourse has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 70 AD.


JLB
 
I know how you believe this
The Olivet Discourse has absolutely nothing to do with the events of 70 AD.
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we just dont agree ... :)

I was funnin ya bit JLB.. :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​
Zac 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction;
But Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
this verse IMO goes with these.
.Zechariah shows that the city will be inhabited in safety.
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Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Heb_12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,


..
 
JohnD said:
For extremely damning arguments opposing preterism (in particular the date of the writing of Revelation) please check this site out for yourselves.

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1552-when-was-the-book-of-revelation-written
Click to expand...

This site points to far too many ancient sources for there to be any question about the 96 CE authorship of the book of Revelation.

l would also add that the grammar suggesting the Jewish Temple was standing at the time Revelation was penned would be prophetic like the prophecies of chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel written as though the Temple were standing at the time though it actually laid in ruins when Ezekiel was penned.

Furthermore, the Great Tribulation cannot have been 70 CE because Matthew 24 stated that this time of tribulation would be like never before (and Jerusalem went through at least one prior destruction of the same circumstances in 586 BCE).

All forms of Preterism are counter-prophetic if not anti-prophetic relegating future prophecies to contrived past fulfillments thus stripping God's people of the prophetic warnings God placed in his Word for our benefit.

I liken Preterism to the kind of people who paint over the "bridge out" warning signs and humanity thus speeds down the road towards the greatest chasm ever known oblivious that there is no bridge ahead.
 
JohnD said:
This site points to far too many ancient sources for there to be any question about the 96 CE authorship of the book of Revelation.

l would also add that the grammar suggesting the Jewish Temple was standing at the time Revelation was penned would be prophetic like the prophecies of chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel written as though the Temple were standing at the time though it actually laid in ruins when Ezekiel was penned.

Furthermore, the Great Tribulation cannot have been 70 CE because Matthew 24 stated that this time of tribulation would be like never before (and Jerusalem went through at least one prior destruction of the same circumstances in 586 BCE).

All forms of Preterism are counter-prophetic if not anti-prophetic relegating future prophecies to contrived past fulfillments thus stripping God's people of the prophetic warnings God placed in his Word for our benefit.

I liken Preterism to the kind of people who paint over the "bridge out" warning signs and humanity thus speeds down the road towards the greatest chasm ever known oblivious that there is no bridge ahead.
Click to expand...

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Dan 12:1)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:21)

And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
(2Pe 3:4-6)

The time that is coming that this world has never seen will be far worse than the flood at Noah's time by which everything that had breath perished save Noah and his Family.

According to preterist, this time that exceeded Noah's flood has come and gone. If that were the case, nobody would be here.

Preterist are a confused lot.

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Guys we have members of the Body of Christ here who have a preterist slant... Watch you use of words...
Also there are differences ...
Full pretersim is considered a heresy by this site
Orthodox or partial pretersim is considered to be in the realm of Christianity..

admin...
 
As far as HH Hannegraaf is concerned, in my opinion, I found him personally to be an opportunist who guards the spotlight like a jealous madman. In a brief meeting at a speaking engagement in San Diego some20 years ago, I kidded that he looked well for a man who is damned and condemned to hell (words the TBN owner Paul Crouch was saying of Hannegraff at the time). the crowd around him laughed. And the look HHH shot me could have burned a hole in my chest... not for the words of Crouch which all understood was in jest on my part... but for the laughter and for stealing his thunder for even a moment.

I kept the matter quiet for many years having been quite shocked by it and the uncovering news that HHH essentially established his throne at CRI by firing all but a very few of the staff hand picked by CRI founder then late Dr. Walter Martin (of whom the phrase Bible Answer Man was coined by the late Dr. Donald Grey Barnhouse).

Martin's daughters Cindi and Jill bitterly oppose one another on this matter, that HHH hijacked the Christian Research Institute from under everyone and everything its founder had put in place to succeed him in his death. Jill and I are acquaintances (mainly online) and over the years we have discussed the situation and I brought up my encounter with the man. The Martin family (except Cindi) believe HHH did hijack CRI and reinvented it as his own not only with the termination of the people Martin hand picked but also with the trashing of the hundreds of taped messages by Walter Martin. And I find myself in agreement with Jill and her stepmom Darlene on this matter.

CRI apparently has been a cash cow to HHH.
 
JohnD said:
All forms of Preterism are counter-prophetic if not anti-prophetic relegating future prophecies to contrived past fulfillments thus stripping God's people of the prophetic warnings God placed in his Word for our benefit.
Click to expand...
If you believe any prophesy in the New Testament has been fulfilled by definition that is perterism...
 
reba said:
Guys we have members of the Body of Christ here who have a preterist slant... Watch you use of words...
Also there are differences ...
Full pretersim is considered a heresy by this site
Orthodox or partial pretersim is considered to be in the realm of Christianity..

admin...
Click to expand...

Understood.
 
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reba said:
If you believe any prophesy in the New Testament has been fulfilled by definition that is perterism...
Click to expand...

A cleaver argument masking a deeper problem.
Who or what is to say where the fulfilled prophecies stop?
Scripture... yes?

The more you dig into Preterism the more you realize their base for argumentation is extrabiblical human reasoning. Acts 17:11 1 Thessalonians 5:21 1 John 4:1 John 16:13 2 Peter 1:20-21 diametrically oppose this kind of teaching in any form.
 
I have also found in my dealings with Preterists that the partial preterist must use futurist arguments not to be full preterists themselves. And that there is no line of demarcation / distinction between the two other than they simply do not buy into where the logical outcome of all forms of Preterism leads.

Dealings with Gary Demar, on the radio show of Rich Agozino (who had choice vulgar comments for me in addition to declaring I have an unteachable spirit... when it comes to no-biblical teaching, I must agree)...
 
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