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Go ahead and share your insights with us about the difference between the Old Covenant and the old testament.
As well as the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Thanks JLB
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Go ahead and share your insights with us about the difference between the Old Covenant and the old testament.
As well as the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.
Thanks JLB
Hmmm, what part of the Old Covenant is this?
Gen 10:1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.
What part of the Old Covenant is the table of nations?
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
And what part of the Old Covenant was the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?
How about Nineveh?
Jon 1:1 Now the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
Jon 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
The Old Covenant was the agreement between God and Israel.
Now, who is the New Covenant made with?
Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Paul reinforces this...
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
The New Covenant is not the complete eradication of everything that went before, it is the writing of God's Law in our hearts and minds and the giving of the Holy Spirit which gives us the heart to obey God...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
All will understand and obey God's Law...
Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mic 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Egypt will turn to God...
Isa 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
Isa 19:19 In that day shall there be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the LORD.
Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the LORD because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.
Isa 19:21 And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it.
Isa 19:22 And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.
Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
And so will Germany...
Isa 19:23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.
Isa 19:24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:
Isa 19:25 Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance.
All will know the true God...
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
francisdesales
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The Assyrians were the ancestors of the modern day Germans.
francisdesales
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I think that was proven false after Hitler and his 'agents' made that claim because they didn't fancy the Semetic story in Scriptures.
Regards
I don't find Hitler to be a credible source.
francisdesales
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I don't either. that was my point. I forget the social scientist who made this claim, someone from Germany in 1870 or so, who were making the claims about the Aryans. I don't normally cite Wikipedia, I realize it is not conclusive, but here is some info on the claim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan_race
Regards
G
George Muller
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Oh that some would cast their own righteousness as dung around the fig tree of self-righteousness, then many would see "fruit" grow where only leaves had been. Become a fool and God will make you wise, become weak and God will make you strong.
Php 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
G
George Muller
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Interesting that the term "another" is the word "heteros" from which the word heresy is drawn. If one reads this passage in its intended meaning all "heresy" is a turning from the Grace of God. Now I know that religion and religious groups have changed the meaning of the word to represent those who disagree with a religious group or a doctrine of a religious group, but the scriptures define the term as turning from grace back to self-justification by works.
josefnospam
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Romans 3:11............There is NONE that seeketh after God................It is God only that gives grace. Unsaved men don't seek it. And when one does come to God it is because God called and qualified that person by giving him his spirit. I hope he has called and Blessed you.........
Give him ALL the credit, honor and glory due him
G
George Muller
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Ac 15:1 ¶ And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Ac 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Now to understand the 2nd Chapter of Galatians, one must understand the context to which Paul is speaking, the issue of "circumcision" is in view and the issue of which Paul is speaking is the "law of moses" - liberty from the law is that which the Holy Ghost desired.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Ac 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Ac 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Now to understand the 2nd Chapter of Galatians, one must understand the context to which Paul is speaking, the issue of "circumcision" is in view and the issue of which Paul is speaking is the "law of moses" - liberty from the law is that which the Holy Ghost desired.
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Jethro Bodine
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What makes circumcision, for example, forbidden is when you do it with the express intent of being justified by that work. But circumcision, or any other work of the law, is not in and of itself equivalent to trying to be justified by works of the law. The REASON someone is being circumcised is what makes that work a damnable work of self righteousness or not.
If this is not true then Paul was the worst of hypocrites for teaching people not to keep the (ceremonial) law, but then turning right around and keeping it himself.
This doctrine of 'everything of the law is sin' is the result of very, very bad teaching in the church propagated by the antisemitism that got entrenched in the church in the second century to distance the church from the persecution of the Jews.
All one has to do is take the blinders off and read the Bible to see there is nothing inherently wrong with the law. What is wrong is trying to be justified by works of the law. The works of the law themselves do not constitute damnable works. That's absurd.
If this is not true then Paul was the worst of hypocrites for teaching people not to keep the (ceremonial) law, but then turning right around and keeping it himself.
This doctrine of 'everything of the law is sin' is the result of very, very bad teaching in the church propagated by the antisemitism that got entrenched in the church in the second century to distance the church from the persecution of the Jews.
All one has to do is take the blinders off and read the Bible to see there is nothing inherently wrong with the law. What is wrong is trying to be justified by works of the law. The works of the law themselves do not constitute damnable works. That's absurd.
G
George Muller
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Ga 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
In this epistle, Paul and his authority as it relates to true and sound doctrine, is established above all others. All doctrine must be judged by Pauls epistles.
Those who seek to be justified by any part of the law, have in effect made the death of the Lord vain as it relates to their own standing in the Grace of God.
5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.
11 ¶ But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
In this epistle, Paul and his authority as it relates to true and sound doctrine, is established above all others. All doctrine must be judged by Pauls epistles.
Those who seek to be justified by any part of the law, have in effect made the death of the Lord vain as it relates to their own standing in the Grace of God.
G
George Muller
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Well, if someone desires to be circumcised and they do it as unto their self, who would know? Maybe their wife? But if a man is circumcised and then boast to others as if he has worked some righteous act, then in effect he is teaching a false doctrine.
And the term "ceremonial" is just a man-made term to "break" the law into parts, it is not biblical. And Paul said that to the Jews he became as a Jew -to win them to Christ. So any temple worship etc.. traditions where a part of his own love for his people, and are not witnesses to sound doctrine.
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- Jul 13, 2012
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I agree with you George, for the most part, the reference in Galatians was in context to those that would follow Paul and try to destroy his work in the churches he raised up, by trying to pervert the Gospel and bring these new Christians back under the bondage of law keeping.
I believe it was a messenger of Satan that was driving this group, which Paul called a thorn in his side.
Remember though, circumcision was the "sign" of the covenant of Abraham, that The Lord made with him before He became flesh.
Circumcision in and of itself is not from the law, it is a motive that counts.
Taking communion likewise is a good thing, however Paul warned of those that took it in an unworthy manner, with the wrong motive and it becoming a bad thing.
Like Paul's circumcision of Timothy, the motive is the key.
I am with you for the most part, however sometimes I think your motive is lacking in Love, like mine is as well.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
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Right. Absolutely right. But to suggest that any all circumcision is damnable works is absolutely wrong.
Paul was not teaching that circumcision itself was wrong. He taught that circumcision for the purpose of being justified was wrong.
Why are you going here? You know full well what breaking the law up into parts means when I say that. It is the EXACT 'breaking up' of the law that you believe exists. (Remember, I taught you, lol!)
But more importantly shows that any and all law keeping is not in and of itself damnable!
So let's get off the backs of those who 'keep the law' (the ceremonial law--we all believe we are to 'keep' the law in regard to 'do not murder', 'do not steal', etc.).
If they are condemned for simply keeping the law then so was Paul.
Jethro Bodine
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And not only that, but to draw converts to their specific authority and away from Paul's.
In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul talks about 'not being slaves to men', meaning that when a person submitted to circumcision you in a sense became a disciple of the person who did that and belonged to them. Same thing happened to baptism. But Paul explains there is only one baptism--baptism into Christ, just as their is only one circumcision, the true circumcision unto Christ, not done by human hands, but by the Spirit of God.
G
George Muller
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Thank you and maybe we could find some common ground on these and others issues of the truth. Although I do not accept that I have acted outside of love, I honor your words and the motive and intention of why you presented them. I do maintain that a carful look at Gal 2 and Acts 15 prove the issue being discussed is not just a "ceremonial" aspect of the law, it is indeed the whole of the law being address. Now I have been accused by many in my own church family of confronting those who are living contrary to the holiness of the Spirit, I uphold holiness, honesty and sincere faith and love, I confront the TWO levens of scriptures with the same zeal. Only on the these forums we are not aware of the true spiritual condition of those we relate too. Our discussions are based upon doctrine, and there is no awareness of personal issue upon which we would use the scriptures in their context. In a group such as the Corinthian Church who where not under the attack of legalism, but yet did not honor there bodies unto holiness, the correction was to bring fear upon them who did such things. For Galatians the proper correction was to stand in absolute terms against the legalism being brought into that group. Biblical correction is based upon the understanding of those whom the correction is directed. The true standard is not legalism nor is it walking in the lust and desires of the flesh. The true standard is submission unto the Spirit of God by which righteousness is produced through the believer.
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G
George Muller
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Like I said Jethro, how could anyone judge another for being circumcised, how would anyone know unless it had been made an issue by the one who was circumcised? So this just proves my point, those who "think" they are keeping the law are always boasting in their lawkeeping.
Anyone teaching the law in part or whole (always in part) are teaching doctrines of error. Now if some want to do this or that as an personal act of faith, that is between them and the Lord, If God accepts it as faith then good, but sound doctrine is judged according to Pauls Gospel.