GAP…theory…or…fact?

[FreeGrace]

Why would you suggest the use of a lexicon? Surely you're not suggesting they're inspired are you?

I do suggest the use of a lexicon. It's the only way to learn the meaning of words. Do you use a dictionary when you come across a word you are unfamiliar with?

If you want to get that accurate why are you using the Masoretic text?

Who said I was?

But either way, Moses includes day one in the 7 days so there can't be any gap between the days. In six days God created the heavens and the earth, verse one of Genesis says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth". (Gen 1:1 KJV)

I suggest a "recount". Day 1 began in v.3.

Moses and Isaiah used the same word "tohuw". Isaiah wrote that God did NOT create the earth tohuw.

If one rejects a time gap, then Moses wrote that God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was tohuw. This is a huge contradiction. How else would one resolve this?

I have already shown that the exact same form of the word "hayah" in v.2 (was) is translated as BECAME in 4 other verses.

Not only is "became" a legitimate translation in Gen 1:2, it is DEMANDED in order to avoid the contradiction that "was" creates.

 

[FreeGrace]

.

FreeGrace, I know this is simple, but it demonstrates this time GAP between Gen 1:1 and 1:2. And All here will agree that there is a time Gap in this verse, that is structured the same way as Gen 1:1-2.

Gen 1:1-2~~[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. [2] And the earth was(became) without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 4:2~~And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Same grammatical sentence structure. And there is a Gap. Was Abel born a keeper of the Sheep or was there some time between his birth and becoming a keeper of the sheep?

If the earth was created void and empty, Abel was born as a keeper of the sheep.[/QUOTE]
Great point!

I'm amazed that people seem uninterested in the fact that if "hayah" meant "was", then there is a contradiction between what Moses wrote and what Isaiah wrote in Isa 45:18. Totally amazed.

 

[FreeGrace]

Genesis 1:2~~The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Psalm 104:29-30~~
29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

30Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.

Hey! Same concept as found in Heb 11:3!! Great find!!

 

[FreeGrace]

Actually if I could say I have a preferred translation, that translation does NOT say WAS, it says ' hath existed'.

Irregardless, if "hayah" in v.2 does mean "was", then there is a huge contradiction. Maybe that doesn't bother some.

Obviously, we read that scripture differently. Oh well.

Both Moses and Isaiah used the same word, tohuw. One would have to change the meaning of one of the verses to avoid the contradiction. Or accept that Moses meant "became", which I've demonstrated to be legitimate.

But if you're ok with a contradiction, I guess there isn't much more than needs to be said.

 

[FreeGrace]

It take a whole lot of different translations and changing wording to make it complicated.

Correct. Let's just stick with the fact that both Moses and Isaiah used the same word in reference to the creation account.

Isaiah wrote that God did not create the earth tohuw. If the word "was" really means that, then there is a contradiction. But, since the word "hayah" has been translated as "became" in 4 other verses, that avoids the contradiction.

Very simple. For those who are concerned about contradictions in Scripture. I don't tolerate them.

 

[Brother Mike]

Even if you want to translate tohuw as "empty", Isaiah wrote that God didn't create it empty. But Moses wrote that He did, if you leave out a time gap.

There is nothing in Isa about "not leaving it empty". That's just eisegesis. Isaiah wrote this: per LITV: "not creating it empty". Yet, Moses the opposite; that God created it empty, if there is no time gap.

The only way to avoid contradiction is to accept v.2 as: but, the earth BECAME empty. Problem solved.


Nothing is hidden. I've shown that the exact form of the word "hayah" in Gen 1:2 was translated BECAME in 4 other places. And if you stay with "was", as in original creation, then you have also created a contradiction.

Just to say sorry, did make a post and described my "OLD" view on a angelic kingdom gone bad before Adam with scriptures. That Post was removed for getting off topic and was not sure what to post next since everything here seems to be repeated over and over. I did respond though as you asked.

Blessings.

 

[Butch5]

I do suggest the use of a lexicon. It's the only way to learn the meaning of words. Do you use a dictionary when you come across a word you are unfamiliar with?

Really, what about those who write the lexicon, how do they determine what a word means?

Who said I was?

Well, that's all I've seen posted. Looking at the Septuagint it seems "was" is the correct translation.

I suggest a "recount". Day 1 began in v.3.

Moses and Isaiah used the same word "tohuw". Isaiah wrote that God did NOT create the earth tohuw.

If one rejects a time gap, then Moses wrote that God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was tohuw. This is a huge contradiction. How else would one resolve this?

I have already shown that the exact same form of the word "hayah" in v.2 (was) is translated as BECAME in 4 other verses.

Not only is "became" a legitimate translation in Gen 1:2, it is DEMANDED in order to avoid the contradiction that "was" creates.

Did you read the passage?

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Exo 20:9-11 NKJ)

In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1 NKJ)

Moses includes Gen 1:1 within the six days. from the beginning to the end it was six days. If there was a gap between verse one and two, it had to be less than six days.[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

[gr8grace3]

Really, what about those who write the lexicon, how do they determine what a word means?




Well, that's all I've seen posted. Looking at the Septuagint it seems "was" is the correct translation.




Did you read the passage?

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Exo 20:9-11 NKJ)

In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1 NKJ)

Moses includes Gen 1:1 within the six days. from the beginning to the end it was six days. If there was a gap between verse one and two, it had to be less than six days.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Moses does not include genesis 1:1-2 in the First day. Each day of restoration started with "And God Said,.." The First day started In Gen 1:3....."And God said,.."

Genesis 1:1-2 was.....

Psalm 33:6-9~~NASB~~

6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

 

[Butch5]

[/QUOTE]
Moses does not include genesis 1:1-2 in the First day. Each day of restoration started with "And God Said,.." The First day started In Gen 1:3....."And God said,.."

Genesis 1:1-2 was.....

Psalm 33:6-9~~NASB~~

6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.[/QUOTE]

He said, in six days God created the heavens and the earth. The creating of the heavens and the earth begins in verse 1

 

[gr8grace3]

Genesis 1:2 NASB~~The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.

Jeremiah 4:23 “I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.” KJV

Isaiah 14:12,17 KJV

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

 

[FreeGrace]

Really, what about those who write the lexicon, how do they determine what a word means?

That's why they are called experts or scholars. They KNOW the language, which neither you nor I do.

Well, that's all I've seen posted. Looking at the Septuagint it seems "was" is the correct translation.

So, it "seems" that you have no problem with contradictions within God's Word, then?? Really? Why are you comfortable with that?

If the word for "hayah" did mean "was", then there is a contradiction between Moses and Isaiah.

Did you read the passage?

Yep, did.

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.
11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. (Exo 20:9-11 NKJ)

Did you read my previous response, which answers your point? Day 1 began at v.3, not v.1

In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth.

Yep. Starting at v.3.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1:1 NKJ)

That's not Day 1.

Moses includes Gen 1:1 within the six days.

No, he didn't. He simply made a statement of fact. And then he either contradicts Isaish 45:18, or he noted that the earth became something other than what it was originally created.

from the beginning to the end it was six days. If there was a gap between verse one and two, it had to be less than six days.

[/QUOTE]
Nope. Day 1 begins at v.3 when God created light and called it good.

But I hope you are comfortable with the contradiction your view has.

 

[FreeGrace]

[gr8grace3]
Moses does not include genesis 1:1-2 in the First day. Each day of restoration started with "And God Said,.." The First day started In Gen 1:3....."And God said,.."

Genesis 1:1-2 was.....

Psalm 33:6-9~~NASB~~

6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made,
And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

7He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap;
He lays up the deeps in storehouses.

8Let all the earth fear the LORD;
Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him.

9For He spoke, and it was done;
He commanded, and it stood fast.

He said, in six days God created the heavens and the earth. The creating of the heavens and the earth begins in verse 1[/QUOTE]
Nope. Day 1 begins and ends in v.3. A statement does not make it a fact.

 

[Deborah13]

Irregardless, if "hayah" in v.2 does mean "was", then there is a huge contradiction. Maybe that doesn't bother some.

A correct statement, it doesn't bother me. Why?
1) I don't interpret those verses the way you do.
2) Therefore, your interpretation does not bother me.

Genesis 1:2 - addresses an uncompleted creation
Isaiah 45:18 - addresses a completed creation

Both Moses and Isaiah used the same word, tohuw. One would have to change the meaning of one of the verses to avoid the contradiction. Or accept that Moses meant "became", which I've demonstrated to be legitimate.

But if you're ok with a contradiction, I guess there isn't much more than needs to be said.

 

[Butch5]

That's why they are called experts or scholars. They KNOW the language, which neither you nor I do.

That's your answer? There are those who teach Calvinism that are supposed to be experts and Scholars, likewise those who teach Arminianism that are supposed to be Scholars and experts, both sides can't be right. Just because someone has a few letters after their name doesn't make them right. Look in your lexicon and find the word "Olam" and see that it says it means forever. The word cannot mean forever. Look up the word "Aionios" it is also defined as forever, which it cannot meant.

So, it "seems" that you have no problem with contradictions within God's Word, then?? Really? Why are you comfortable with that?

If the word for "hayah" did mean "was", then there is a contradiction between Moses and Isaiah.

I don't have a contradiction in God's word because I give the Septuagint precedence over the Masoretic text.

Yep, did.


Did you read my previous response, which answers your point? Day 1 began at v.3, not v.1


Yep. Starting at v.3.




That's not Day 1.


No, he didn't. He simply made a statement of fact. And then he either contradicts Isaish 45:18, or he noted that the earth became something other than what it was originally created.

Nope. Day 1 begins at v.3 when God created light and called it good.

But I hope you are comfortable with the contradiction your view has.[/QUOTE]

Verse three begins the explanation of verse 1 and 2. I really don't see what there is to explain. Moses said in six days God created the heavens and the earth, the context of that statement is six 24 hour days, thus the heavens and the earth we created is six days

 

[FreeGrace]

A correct statement, it doesn't bother me. Why?

1) I don't interpret those verses the way you do.
2) Therefore, your interpretation does not bother me.

This isn't about interpretation, as I've pointed out. It's about a single word used by both Moses and Isaiah. Since both were used in reference to the creation account. The way you interpret Gen 1:1-2, God created the earth tohuw. But Isaiah wrote that God did NOT create the earth tohuw. That is a contradiction.

But, if "hayah" means "became" as I've proven that it has been used that way in 4 other verses, that is the only way to avoid any contradiction.

Genesis 1:2 - addresses an uncompleted creation

Doesn't matter. If "hayah" means "was", then Moses wrote that God created the earth tohuw. Which contradicts Isaiah, who wrote that God did NOT create the earth tohuw.

YEC consider Gen 1:1 and 2 to be "in the same breath" of action. That v.2 describes HOW the earth was originally created; tohu wabohu. And if that were so, then Isaiah contradicted what Moses wrote. Plain and simple.

Per the YEC view, v.2 simply explains the condition of planet earth that was created per v.1. And it is clear that the earth is described as tohu wabohu. That means that if hayah means was, then that is the condition of the earth WHEN God originally created it. Which contradicts what Isaiah wrote; that God did NOT create the earth tohuw.

Essentially, it doesn't matter what the meaning of "tohuw" means, because both authors used the word to describe the condition of the earth. If there was no time gap, then they contradict each other.

But since hayah means "became" in v.2, there is no contradiction between the 2 authors.

Isaiah 45:18 - addresses a completed creation

Nope. And you haven't proven that. That is your opinion.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's your answer? There are those who teach Calvinism that are supposed to be experts and Scholars, likewise those who teach Arminianism that are supposed to be Scholars and experts, both sides can't be right.

You've changed the issue. It was about lexicons, not teachings. Lexicons are definitions of words from the Hebrew and Greek. It's the Calvinists and Arminians who teach.

Just because someone has a few letters after their name doesn't make them right.

Never said that it did. But how else are you going to understand what a Hebrew or Greek word means, if you haven't studied the language enough to be fluent in it?

Look in your lexicon and find the word "Olam" and see that it says it means forever. The word cannot mean forever. Look up the word "Aionios" it is also defined as forever, which it cannot meant.

This is all irrelevant, but go ahead and humor me, why is it that these words "cannot" mean what the lexicon says they mean? What do you know that the translators apparently didn't?

I don't have a contradiction in God's word because I give the Septuagint precedence over the Masoretic text.

What makes the LXX right? The LXX is a Greek translation of the Hebrew. How is that so different and superior to the translations into other languages than Hebrew? Do you see the inconsistency of your view here?

Nope. Day 1 begins at v.3 when God created light and called it good.
But I hope you are comfortable with the contradiction your view has.

Verse three begins the explanation of verse 1 and 2. I really don't see what there is to explain. Moses said in six days God created the heavens and the earth, the context of that statement is six 24 hour days, thus the heavens and the earth we created is six days

I guess there's no point in further debate. You have your opinion, and I have what the Word says. Day 1 was the creation of light, which God called good.

The creation days of Gen 1 always begins with "and God said…".

 

[Gregg]

Gen 4:2~~And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Same grammatical sentence structure. And there is a Gap. Was Abel born a keeper of the Sheep or was there some time between his birth and becoming a keeper of the sheep?

If the earth was created void and empty, Abel was born as a keeper of the sheep.

The statement you are referring to is called narrative interjection, "And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground." Time, or a gap in time, is not the reason why this type of statement is made.

There are 1,000's of chrono-logical gaps in Scripture, and scores of narrative interjections - none of which ask the reader to assume events before creation.

 

[Gregg]

This isn't about interpretation, as I've pointed out. It's about a single word used by both Moses and Isaiah. Since both were used in reference to the creation account. The way you interpret Gen 1:1-2, God created the earth tohuw. But Isaiah wrote that God did NOT create the earth tohuw. That is a contradiction.

But, if "hayah" means "became" as I've proven that it has been used that way in 4 other verses, that is the only way to avoid any contradiction.

You site "was" in Gen 1:2 should be translated "became" and give 4 examples of why it should be.

Why not change your 4 other examples from "became" to agree with "was" in Gen 1:2?

 

[Gregg]

Even if you want to translate tohuw as "empty", Isaiah wrote that God didn't create it empty. But Moses wrote that He did, if you leave out a time gap.

There is nothing in Isa about "not leaving it empty"

. . . to you, as you ignore the full phrase including "but forming it to be inhabited." He created the earth empty of men, but on the 3rd day brought the land forth, afterwards making and creating man on the 6th day to inhabit the land.

Isa 45:18-19 is set in contrast to Gen 1:1-2:
- Gen 1:1-2 and empty earth [its created state] and subsequent inhabiting [in the Garden of Eden]
with
- Isa 45:18-19 an inhabited 'Promised Land' [its created state] and subsequent emptying of it into captivity [in Babylon & Medo-Persia]

Why is it set in contrast? The Lord:
is the Creator of heaven an earth, the creator of man and the nations who appoints their rise and fall.
raised up Babylon and Persia to take Israel captive, He will redeem Israel returning them to inhabit the Promised Land.
reveals the Messianic Age within Isaiah, largely ch's 40-66, and specifically ch's 42, 49, 52-53, 59, 63.
reveals also that it is His will that the nations and peoples, all inhabitants of the earth, know Him through His Messiah.

- - -

 

[FreeGrace]

There are 1,000's of chrono-logical gaps in Scripture, and scores of narrative interjections - none of which ask the reader to assume events before creation.

Let's stay with what Moses and Isaiah wrote. If there is no time gape, then Gen 1:1-2 says that "in the beginning, God created the heavens and earth, and the earth was tohuw.

v.2 describes what God originally created. The condition at original creation.

But, Isaiah plainly wrote that God did not create the earth tohuw.

There there is a time gap, which is indicated by hayah meaning BECAME, or there is a direct contradiction between the 2 authors. I'm not at all comfortable with such a contradiction. Plus, I have proven that hayah HAS BEEN translated as "became" in 4 other verses. That is the only way to avoid any contradiction.

This isn't about how to translate the word "tohuw". It's about seeing the contradiction if there is no time gap while holding to the meaning of hayah being "was" instead of "became".

I'm amazed at the strong resistance to accepting hayah as "became" when not doing so creates a huge contradiction between the 2 authors.