GAP…theory…or…fact?

[FreeGrace]

So what, there are other verses where that word is NOT translated as 'became' and that is a FACT.

Are you comfortable with the contradiction the no time gap theory creates? I'm not.

If there is no time gap, then Gen 1:2 is a statement about the condition of the earth WHEN God created it. And that contradicts what Isaiah wrote in 45:18.

The only way to avoid a contradiction is to understand that the earth became tohuw. God didn't create the earth tohuw, according to Isaiah.

 

[FreeGrace]

Okay . . .

This is not a race. It is about recognizing a view that creates a contradiction in Scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

Are you comfortable with the contradiction the no time gap theory creates? I'm not.

If there is no time gap, then Gen 1:2 is a statement about the condition of the earth WHEN God created it. And that contradicts what Isaiah wrote in 45:18.

The only way to avoid a contradiction is to understand that the earth became tohuw. God didn't create the earth tohuw, according to Isaiah.

Please address my post to you. It appears that you are avoiding what I said about ONE of your 'proofs'.

 

[FreeGrace]

Please address my post to you. It appears that you are avoiding what I said about ONE of your 'proofs'.

You haven't liked any of my evidence. What do you want me to address, specifically?

While you have denied that the YEC view creates a contradiction, you haven't provided any evidence for that.

 

[Deborah13]

You haven't liked any of my evidence. What do you want me to address, specifically?

While you have denied that the YEC view creates a contradiction, you haven't provided any evidence for that.

The one you responded to but did not address anything that I said.
Quote,
"So what, there are other verses where that word is NOT translated as 'became' and that is a FACT.

 

[Sinthesis]

It was graciously brought to my attention a couple of necessary corrections [ref: bolded above].

[1] Cyrus of Persia held Israel captive by default when he conquered the Babylonian empire. He began releasing portions of Israel about a year afterwards. The Lord raised up Cyrus to begin setting Israel free (Isa 44:28), as opposed to continuing their captivity.

[2] Persia's destruction did not follow soon after, but continued for more than 200 hundred years.

It's an impressive post nonetheless!

 

[FreeGrace]

The one you responded to but did not address anything that I said.
Quote,
"So what, there are other verses where that word is NOT translated as 'became' and that is a FACT.

That's right. [edited unnecessary comment] The point remains, if Gen 1:2 is a description of original creation (v.1), then Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other. Because Isaiah wrote that God DID NOT create the earth tohuw.

The YEC view is that God DID create the earth tohuw. Contradiction remains the problem for the YECists.

 

[Deborah13]

That's right. So what? The point remains, if Gen 1:2 is a description of original creation (v.1), then Moses and Isaiah have contradicted each other. Because Isaiah wrote that God DID NOT create the earth tohuw.

The YEC view is that God DID create the earth tohuw. Contradiction remains the problem for the YECists.

Gen. 1:1, is Moses' thesis, He states the subject he is about to address. 'the preparing of the earth'

Well I don't know what YECers view is but my view is that at the point spoken of by Moses in Gen. 1:2 the earth was in a state of confusion and uninhabitable for life. 'tohu'
In Isaiah, we are told that God did not create it 'to be' tohu, uninhabitable.
YLT
Isa 45:18 For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it--not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: `I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
His preparing included all of what Isaiah says.

He didn't design it, form it, make it, or set it up, to be 'tohu'. He created it to be inhabited and inhabited by man and beast. :wink

 

[FreeGrace]

Gen. 1:1, is Moses' thesis, He states the subject he is about to address. 'the preparing of the earth'

Actually, he was making a statement about what created "in the beginning".

Well I don't know what YECers view is but my view is that at the point spoken of by Moses in Gen. 1:2 the earth was in a state of confusion and uninhabitable for life. 'tohu'
In Isaiah, we are told that God did not create it 'to be' tohu, uninhabitable.

No, Isaiah didn't say "to be".
NASB:
18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The phrase "formed it" is what it was "to be". And the word "formed" does not refer to original creation. Different Hebrew word.

NASB uses "formal equivalence", meaning the translation is true to the original.

YLT
Isa 45:18 For thus said Jehovah, Creator of heaven, He is God, Former of earth, and its Maker, He established it--not empty He prepared it, For inhabiting He formed it: `I am Jehovah, and there is none else.
His preparing included all of what Isaiah says.

This rendition reads more like a paraphrase than anything literal.

This is from a Hebrew interlinear:
ְReading right to left: to dwell of he created her not chaos (tohuw) he established her and one making of her.

Here's the actual site: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf

Nothing about "creating not to be chaos".

And yes, God DID form (asah) the earth for inhabiting. But Gen 1:2 says he created the earth tohuw. Obviosly there is a contradiction unless we understand Gen 1:2 to be "became". Because God did NOT create the earth tohuw. It became that way.

He didn't design it, form it, make it, or set it up, to be 'tohu'. He created it to be inhabited and inhabited by man and beast. :wink

Error. Isaiah did not say that "He created it to be inhabited". He wrote that He FORMED it to be inhabited. Which speaks of the 6 day restoration process.

God created the earth once. And it was NOT tohuw. But it became tohuw, per Gen 1:2.

 

[Deborah13]

Actually, he was making a statement about what created "in the beginning".


No, Isaiah didn't say "to be".
NASB:
18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The phrase "formed it" is what it was "to be". And the word "formed" does not refer to original creation. Different Hebrew word.

NASB uses "formal equivalence", meaning the translation is true to the original.


This rendition reads more like a paraphrase than anything literal.

This is from a Hebrew interlinear:
ְReading right to left: to dwell of he created her not chaos (tohuw) he established her and one making of her.

Here's the actual site: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa45.pdf

Nothing about "creating not to be chaos".

And yes, God DID form (asah) the earth for inhabiting. But Gen 1:2 says he created the earth tohuw. Obviosly there is a contradiction unless we understand Gen 1:2 to be "became". Because God did NOT create the earth tohuw. It became that way.


Error. Isaiah did not say that "He created it to be inhabited". He wrote that He FORMED it to be inhabited. Which speaks of the 6 day restoration process.

God created the earth once. And it was NOT tohuw. But it became tohuw, per Gen 1:2.

You have stated your case. I have stated mine.
May God bless you with His wisdom and knowledge of His words.

 

[Gregg]

It's an impressive post nonetheless!

Thank you for the kind words, Sinthesis!.

 

[FreeGrace]

Would someone from the YEC side explain why God would create the universe with apparent age? Who was He trying to trick? What's the point?

And, since carbon dating is considered to be 100% accurate out to 10,000 +/- years, why does that method indicate a very old age for the earth? Shouldn't carbon dating indicate the earth is only 6,000 +/- years old?

2 serious questions. Thank you.

 

[gr8grace3]

Another Question.

God is light and In Him there is no darkness. Before creation there was Just God. Light and no darkness.
God is light; He dwells in
unapproachable light; He clothes Himself with light.

In Gen 1:2 we clearly see darkness. Were did the darkness come from?

 

[Gregg]

Would someone from the YEC side explain why God would create the universe with apparent age? Who was He trying to trick? What's the point?

And, since carbon dating is considered to be 100% accurate out to 10,000 +/- years, why does that method indicate a very old age for the earth? Shouldn't carbon dating indicate the earth is only 6,000 +/- years old?

2 serious questions. Thank you.

I think it is possible that the Lord stretched out the heavens to accelerate time; but relative to us within the 7 days [actual 24-hour] of creation. This might account for the vast distances of light, as the galaxies were producing light as the Lord stretched them. Also, perhaps, time accelerated here on earth; billions of years in a matter of hours.

The LORD created time, space, and matter; and it is His to do with as He pleases.

Isaiah mentioned this 6 times:

He who stretches the heavens Isa 40:22
creating the heavens and stretching them out Isa 42:5
I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens; . . Who was with Me Isa 44:24
I stretched out the heavens with My hands; and I have set all their host in order Isa 45:12
My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens Isa 48:13
And you forget your Maker Jehovah, who has stretched out the heavens and founded the earth Isa 51:13

[Job, Psalms, Jeremiah. and Zechariah mention this another 5-6 times]

- - -

'Why,' you ask. I am not sure, but perhaps to confound those who are wise and arrogant:

who say, 'Isaiah contradicts Moses, unless . . .' or
'It must be this way,' or 'no other way,' or 'either this or that, but nothing else.'



.

 

[Gregg]

Another Question.

God is light and In Him there is no darkness. Before creation there was Just God. Light and no darkness.
God is light; He dwells in
unapproachable light; He clothes Himself with light.

In Gen 1:2 we clearly see darkness. Were did the darkness come from?

The Lord created darkness:
"forming light, and creating darkness [חשׁך, same word as in Gen 1:2]; making peace, and creating evil" (Isa 45:7).

 

[Gregg]

I think it is possible that the Lord stretched out the heavens to accelerate time; but relative to us within the 7 days [actual 24-hour] of creation. This might account for the vast distances of light, as the galaxies were producing light as the Lord stretched them. Also, perhaps, time accelerated here on earth; billions of years in a matter of hours.

The LORD created time, space, and matter; and it is His to do with as He pleases.

Isaiah mentioned this 6 times:

He who stretches the heavens Isa 40:22
creating the heavens and stretching them out Isa 42:5
I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens; . . Who was with Me Isa 44:24
I stretched out the heavens with My hands; and I have set all their host in order Isa 45:12
My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens Isa 48:13
And you forget your Maker Jehovah, who has stretched out the heavens and founded the earth Isa 51:13

[Job, Psalms, Jeremiah. and Zechariah mention this another 5-6 times]

- - -

'Why,' you ask. I am not sure, but perhaps to confound those who are wise and arrogant:

who say, 'Isaiah contradicts Moses, unless . . .' or
'It must be this way,' or 'no other way,' or 'either this or that, but nothing else.'

There is Scriptural verification that the Lord manipulates time, space, and matter, to suit His purposes:

He who stretches the heavens Isa 40:22
creating the heavens and stretching them out Isa 42:5
I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens; . . Who was with Me Isa 44:24
I stretched out the heavens with My hands; and I have set all their host in order Isa 45:12
My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens Isa 48:13
And you forget your Maker Jehovah, who has stretched out the heavens and founded the earth Isa 51:13

Isaiah is familiar with with the Lord commanding time and light and the sun:

"And Isaiah said, This will be the sign to you from Jehovah, that Jehovah will do the thing that He has spoken: Shall the shadow go forward ten steps, or shall it turn back ten steps? And Hezekiah said, It would be a light thing for the shadow to go down ten steps; no, but let the shadow go back ten steps. And Isaiah the prophet cried to Jehovah; and He brought back the shadow by the steps the shadow had gone down on the sundial of Ahaz, ten steps backward" (2Ki 20:9-11).

and

"Then Joshua spoke to Jehovah in the day when Jehovah gave the Amorites up before the sons of Israel; and he said, Sun, stand still before the eyes of Israel in Gibeon! And, Moon stand still in the valley of Aijalon! And the sun stood still, and the moon stood still , until the nation was avenged on its foes. Is it not written in the Book of the Upright? Yea, the sun stood still in the middle of the heavens, and did not hasten to go down for a full day" (Jos 10:12-13).

.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think it is possible that the Lord stretched out the heavens to accelerate time; but relative to us within the 7 days [actual 24-hour] of creation. This might account for the vast distances of light, as the galaxies were producing light as the Lord stretched them. Also, perhaps, time accelerated here on earth; billions of years in a matter of hours.

The LORD created time, space, and matter; and it is His to do with as He pleases.

Isaiah mentioned this 6 times:

He who stretches the heavens Isa 40:22
creating the heavens and stretching them out Isa 42:5
I am Jehovah who makes all things; stretching out the heavens; . . Who was with Me Isa 44:24
I stretched out the heavens with My hands; and I have set all their host in order Isa 45:12
My hand surely founded earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens Isa 48:13
And you forget your Maker Jehovah, who has stretched out the heavens and founded the earth Isa 51:13

[Job, Psalms, Jeremiah. and Zechariah mention this another 5-6 times]

Such a possibility leads to a direct contradiction, though.

'Why,' you ask. I am not sure, but perhaps to confound those who are wise and arrogant:

So, God is just a kidder, huh.

who say, 'Isaiah contradicts Moses, unless . . .' or
'It must be this way,' or 'no other way,' or 'either this or that, but nothing else.'

If there is no time gap between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, then the statement in v.2 "and the earth was tohuw" is a direct contradiction of Isaiah's words in 45:18: "but God did NOT create the earth tohuw".

They both can't be right. Either God did create the earth tohuw, or He didn't. Isaiah said clearly that He didn't, so Moses obviously could not have said that "God created the heavens and earth and the earth was tohuw".

 

[gr8grace3]

The Lord created darkness:
"forming light, and creating darkness [חשׁך, same word as in Gen 1:2]; making peace, and creating evil" (Isa 45:7).

So you believe God directly created darkness and evil? And all was really "not Good" in the six days?

Yes He created darkness and Evil. But it was indirectly through Satan. He created the "evil one", But God created him perfect from his beginning.

Ezekiel 28:15~~"You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.

There is no darkness and no evil in God. He indirectly had to create darkness and He indirectly created the "evil one"....freewill of His creatures caused this.

To have this darkness in Gen 1:2 something had to happen for God who,has no darkness or evil in Him, to create darkness. And it was Satans fall.

 

[Gregg]

I quoted this Scripture, "forming light, and creating darkness [חשׁך, same word as in Gen 1:2]; making peace, and creating evil" (Isa 45:7).

and you posted this in response:

So you believe God directly created darkness and evil? And all was really "not Good" in the six days?

Only "God" is the subject of this verb 'create' [בּרא]; the One doing the action.

But yes; the darkness referred to in Gen 1:2 was created by God. What that darkness is . . . is another matter. Why assume the darkness in Gen 1:2 is evil or of Satan?

 

[gr8grace3]

I quoted this Scripture, "forming light, and creating darkness [חשׁך, same word as in Gen 1:2]; making peace, and creating evil" (Isa 45:7).

and you posted this in response:



Only "God" is the subject of this verb 'create' [בּרא]; the One doing the action.

But yes; the darkness referred to in Gen 1:2 was created by God. What that darkness is . . . is another matter. Why assume the darkness in Gen 1:2 is evil or of Satan?

The Darkness is not another matter Gregg. It only is if we want to hold to the fact that it is not BAD.
Give us ONE example where darkness is good, and God uses it in anything He creates,please. There is NOTHING in scripture that is to make us assume that this darkness is anything other than bad.

Exodus 10:21~~Then the LORD said to Moses, "Stretch out your hand toward the sky, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even a darkness which may be felt.".......same Hebrew word as in Genesis 1:2.

Revelation 16:10-11 translation: NASB NIV MSG
16:10 ¶ Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

Darkness always portrays judgement and loss in the scriptures.

As in Gen 1:2~~The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.