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GAP…theory…or…fact?

So far, I've provided 2 evidences for believing that the earth is far older than Adam. The first evidence is that the exact same form of "hayah" in Gen 1:2 was translated as "became" in 4 other verses. This is hardly my main point. It's only my first point. Seems some think this is my only point. Not at all.

The second point was that the phrase "without form and void" only occurs 3 times in Scripture, all the others translated as "waste place/wilderness/etc". No reason not to understand it that way in Gen 1:2.

OK, since no one has provided any evidence that my first 2 points aren't valid, I will now move on to my next point.

So far, I haven't quoted anything outside of Scripture itself, other than what lexicons or interlinears say. However, I will cite from "Jamieson-Faussett-Brown Commentary on the Whole Bible" per QuickVerse, regarding v.2:
"the earth was without form and void—or in“confusion and emptiness,” as the words are rendered in Isaiah 34.11. This globe, at some undescribed period, having been convulsed and broken up, was a dark and watery waste for ages perhaps, till out of this chaotic state, the present fabric of the worldwas made to arise."

Notice that they acknowledge "some undescribed period", "for ages perhaps", in a "chaotic state". Keep in mind that Isa 45:18 says that God didn't create (barah) the world a waste place. Yet, v.2 does say that the world was/became a waste place or chaotic place.

JFB further says this: "The analogous use, therefore, of this rare and peculair phraseology in the verse before us may imply, according to the first sense of the term, that the world at its creation had neither received its proper shape nor wa fit to be tenanted, and accordingly it is rendered in the Septuagint version "invisible and unfurnished". Or it may signify, according to the second acceptation in which the words are used, that the world, which had formerly been a scene of material beauty and order, was by some great convulsion plunged into a state of chaos or widespread disorder and desolation. Hence, some eminent critics, who take thi view, render the clause thus: 'But (or afterward) the earth became waste and desolate.' This translation is declared by Kurtz ato be inadmissible, as being contraruy to the rules of grammatical construction, but Dr. McCaul has shown that the verb haayhtaah "was" is, in some 20 places, in this chapter, used as equivalent to 'became', and that elsewhere it has the same signification without a following La (superscript)(preposition) (Isa 64:5,9). That the earth was not originally desolate seems also to be implied in Isa 45:18." 2003, Biblesoft.

While I don't rely on commentaries, this one clearly acnowledges that 'eminent' critics have the same view as I do. I know that doesn't prove anything, as there's always at least 2 sides to every argument. But there's much more evidence that just this.

I included JFB only to show a commentary that acknowleges the position, without taking sides.
 
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Wow. Another verse I missed. Just gettin' old. But, my interlinear translates it as "was". However, there are 4 other verses that ARE translated "became" or "did not become". That is my point, which shows that the word in that form CAN mean "became", without any stretch or theory. :)

In my software is the Englishman's Concordance. When a Strong's # is selected, it will show every occurrence of the word. The fact that Englishman's gives 3560 verses, I looked only for when the word was translated as "became/become".

I don't have access to actual Hebrew hieroglyphics because I can't make heads or tails out of them. So I have relied on my Hebrew interlinear which spells the Hebrew words in English, for pronunciation purposes, I suppose. That's what I researched.

No doubt "haayataah" has been translated a number of ways, including Gen 3:20. Of note, my interlinear translated Gen 3:20 "hayah" as "was".

However, my only point about 'hayah" is that in 4 other verses with the exact same form, it was translated as "became", so it's no stretch or theory to treat it that way in Gen 1:2.

However, several have really gotten ahead of themselves on this. I haven't even started in the Greek, which will tie all this together.

And Young's Literal Translation didn't use 'was', he used 'hath existed'.
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,

That word depending on context can be used in several different ways just as Strong's says.
So in these 5 verses (and I'm fairing sure there are others) be don't have the base form of the the word which is hey-yud-hey, but hey-yud-tav-hey which can slightly change the meaning.

Why do Jews argue over a gap or not, because the Hebrew language is not simple nor is it always straight forward.
However, Isaiah 53:1-6 are pretty clear about a suffering Messiah.
 
And Young's Literal Translation didn't use 'was', he used 'hath existed'.
Gen 1:2 the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
Good. My point was that Isa 45:18 says that God didn't create the earth that way (waste and void). It must have become that way.

Why do Jews argue over a gap or not, because the Hebrew language is not simple nor is it always straight forward.
However, Isaiah 53:1-6 are pretty clear about a suffering Messiah.
Sure. And they failed to see that Jesus was their suffering Messiah. I sure don't defend their failure on that, but regarding general texts, I would argue that Hebrew people know the Hebrew language better than others.
 
OK, on to my next evidence. At the end of v.2 we have: " and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

It is interesting that the Hebrew word for "moved on" means "brooded over", as in what a mother hen does to her eggs in order to hatch them. Again, from JFB, "OUr English version does not give the meaning correctly, because this word does not convey the idea of progressive motion, but that of brooding over-cherishing the set of inclubation which a fowl performs when hatching its eggs, and the participial form of the verb implies a continuance of this action." The word is properly translated as "brood" in Deut 32:11 - "As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth (broods) over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings:"

So, what does this suggest, in context? The plural "waters" indicates moving water, or melting water, which fits well with "brooded over". We find the earth a desolate, waste place, chaotic, confusion, etc. And in the dark. What would cause that? An ice pack comes to mind. And science has indicated that the earth has been packed in ice in the past. That is based on scientific measurements, and is supported in Scripture here.

Does anywhere in human history indicate a massive ice age? I'm not aware of any. But there is evidence of one. From the possibility of what v.2 really says, it occurred way before God created Adam.

Greek to follow. :)
 
i talked to a scientist that believes the ice age occurred at the time of the flood before that the earth was of one climate watered by the dew at night, a perfectly temperature controlled climate.. Under the polar ice cap they've found quick frozen Mammoths with vegetation still in their mouths.. what happened happen so fast they didn't have time enough to swallow their last meal.. :)

tob
 
i talked to a scientist that believes the ice age occurred at the time of the flood before that the earth was of one climate watered by the dew at night, a perfectly temperature controlled climate.. Under the polar ice cap they've found quick frozen Mammoths with vegetation still in their mouths.. what happened happen so fast they didn't have time enough to swallow their last meal.. :)

tob

:) Yup, there's been some very interesting articles and documentaries on this subject.
 
What source did that came from? From my PC StudyBible, it occurs 3560 times. PC StudyBible has an interlinear with Strong's numbers. When I click on the #, I get the lexical definition. Then I choose "Englishman's Concordance", which shows every verse where that word occurs. Yep, 3560.

Because the interlinear shows the Hebrew in English letters, for pronunciation, I suppose, I am able to compare and contrast how the basic word "hayah" actually occors in each of those 3560 times. And then I cross reference by looking at the interlinear every where "became/become" occurs.

As a word of existence, like "to be", it's about as common as the word "and". :)

That source is from here:http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1961&t=KJV

Another resource gets me closer to what you propose, but it still doesn't completely agree with your position.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htm
And​
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hayetah_1961.htm
 
i talked to a scientist that believes the ice age occurred at the time of the flood before that the earth was of one climate watered by the dew at night, a perfectly temperature controlled climate.. Under the polar ice cap they've found quick frozen Mammoths with vegetation still in their mouths.. what happened happen so fast they didn't have time enough to swallow their last meal.. :)

tob
Which the flood of Noah's time is unable to explain. The Bible clearly indicates from Gen 1:2 that the Holy Spirit had to brood over the earth to melt the "waters", which explained the darkness as well. Sounds world wide. If an ice age occurred at the time of the flood, why wasn't the ark frozen? And how could there be vegetation after the flood waters subsided.

A very good summary in support of an old earth and Noah's flood from a Christian geologist can be found at www.kjvbible.org.
 
Satan’s fall from heaven is symbolically described in Isaiah 14:12-14 and Ezekiel 28:12-18. These two passages are referring to the kings of Babylon and Tyre, but also have a dual reference to the spiritual power behind them, known as Satan.

The angels were created before the earth, Job 38:4-7, and Satan fell before he tempted Adam and Eve, Genesis 3:1-14. Scripture does not say when Satan fell, but we see that it was before tempting Adam and Eve as per Ezekiel 28:12-18. Satan was the guardian set over the garden of Eden before the creation of man. According to Job 1:6, 7 Satan still had access to heaven and the throne of God as he was roaming through the earth moving freely between the two and giving account to God as he spoke to Him. Scripture is silent as giving an exact time when God cast Satan out of heaven and having access to the throne of God, but it was before that of the Assyrian mentioned in Ezekiel 31 that were Pre-Adamic human beings living in or near the garden of God which is/was somewhere close to Lebanon as the river Hiddekel flowed into it.

Genesis 1:28 God told Adam and Eve to replenish the earth, Genesis 9:1 God told Noah to replenish the earth after the flood. By these passages from the Bible we can see that this world is much older than 6000 years and was inhabited by man way before the creation of Adam and Eve as the key word here is replenish. Why would God tell them to replenish the earth if there were not others here before Adam and Eve.

From the time God created the heavens and the earth until that of creating Adam and Eve could have spanned more than 6000 years as we do see Dinosaurs and dragons mention throughout scripture, Job 30: 29; Job 40:15-18, 23; Job 41; Isaiah 27:1; Isaiah 34:13; Isaiah 35:7; Isaiah 51:9; Deu 32:33; Psalms 44:19; Psalms 74:13; Isaiah 43:20; Jer 9:11; Jer 10:22; Jer 49:33; Micah 1:8; Mal 1:3.

My question is who decided man has only been here for 6000 years?
One source is www.kjvbible.org which is from a Christian geologist who believes the earth is actually very old, yet Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. I think the calculations came from lists of genealogies, etc. As I recall, he doesn't address your question about Adam's creation date.

You've brought up some interesting things that I was planning on bringing up later on, after laying all the groundwork to demonstrate that the earth is far older than Adam. Esp Eze 28:11-15. However, you mentioned a "pre-Adamic human beings". I'd come across that idea but no specifics. I've read through Exe 31 but wasn't able to find anything about that. Could you provide some details of this re-Adamic race? I'd appreciate it very much.
 
Once again, ALL the other 4 verses that contain the exact same form for "hayah" are translated became/did not become. That is a fact. Not a theory. I haven't based any of this on theory. Straight from Scripture.

Hayah, was never one time translated this way in the KJV. The Word can be used in many different ways. There is a reason folks want to believe what they want, and they want scripture to fit that belief, despite any other scriptural evidence or even despite counter evidence.

Why do you want a gap theory in the first place? Normally it's to prove some type of evolution or prove some kind of fall of God's creation before Adam. Neither is supported by the rest of the scriptures.

What is the motive here?
 
Hayah, was never one time translated this way in the KJV. The Word can be used in many different ways. There is a reason folks want to believe what they want, and they want scripture to fit that belief, despite any other scriptural evidence or even despite counter evidence.
Is the KJV the only translation you've check? The NASB does translate it as "became" or "did not become" in 4 other places, enough to prove that the particular form of "hayah" in Gen 1:2 CAN be translated that way.

Further, Moses wrote in Hebrew. Translators attempt to figure out what his thought process was. Since translators only had 1 verse before v.2 as "context", that's not much to go from. But, as I'm in the process of doing, I will show from the NT that Gen 1 is a restoration, which affirms that the earth became a waste place in need of restoration before God put man on it.

Why do you want a gap theory in the first place?
What I want is the truth. Not theories, as I've repeatedly noted. I'm not talking about theory. I'm using the Hebrew words as they have occurred elsewhere in the OT to demonstrate that "but the earth became a waste place" is legitimate and no stretch whatsoever.

Normally it's to prove some type of evolution or prove some kind of fall of God's creation before Adam. Neither is supported by the rest of the scriptures.
I have already condemned the theory of evolution. Your comment is common among the YECers. But in error. Just because the earth is way older than Adam doesn't prove evolution at all. In fact, a pastor named Dr Thomas Chalmers first wrote about a time gap between v.1 and 2 in 1814, being influenced by the work of a geologist named Charles Lyell, who developed the "geological columns" and age of earth and universe. He attempted to harmonize the geologic data of the day with Scripture. When did Darwin come on the scene, who was also influenced by Lyell? His "Origin of the Species" was written in 1859, which is 45 years after Chalmers work.

So, one cannot correctly claim that an old earth view is because of an attempt to support evolution. No one was talking about evolution in 1814. That was Darwin's baby. Many years after Chalmer's work.

What is the motive here?
Truth. What the Bible says, and means. Rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

Why does an old earth threaten any believer? If they know the Word, it shouldn't.
 
OK, I've shown that "hayah" has been translated as "became" in 4 other places in which the form is the exact same as found in Gen 1:2. I've also shown that Isa 45:18 states that God did not create (barah) the earth as a waste place (NASB, not my imagination).

I've also shown that "without form and void" are correctly translated as "waste place, desolation, etc" in the other occurrences in the OT. And Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary notes that as well.

So, v.2 can properly be translated as "but the earth became a waste place/desolation". The reason I believe that is what Moses was thinking is because of what the NT says about Genesis 1.

So, my 4th point concerns what the NT says in reference to Genesis 1.

Heb 11:3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. KJV NASB has 'prepared'

The Greek word for "framed" is 'katartizo':
katartizō Strong's #: 2675
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

The word occurs 13 times in the NT.
Matt 4:21 and Mark 1:19 used for "mending their nets"
Matt 21:16 used for "perfecting praise out of the mouths of babes" (ethical sense)
Luke 6:40 used for every disciple…that is perfect" (ethical sense)
Rom 9:22 used for "fitted to destruction" (think 'adjusted') iow, no one was created for destruction!
1 Cor 1:10 used for "perfectly joined" (ethical sense)
2 Cor 13:11 used for "be perfect" (ethical sense)
Gal 6:1 used for "restore such a one with gentleness"
1 Thess 3:10 used for "might perfect that which is lacking in your faith" (ethical sense)
Heb 10:5 used for "a body You have prepared Me" (ethical sense)
Heb 11:3 used for worlds were prepared or framed
Heb 13:21 used for "make you perfect" (ethical sense)
1 Pet 5:10 used for "make you perfect" (ethical sense)

I believe Heb 11:3 is telling us that God didn't "frame" the worlds, but He prepared in the sense of repair, as 'katartizo' can mean. Yes, 1b1 is how the NASB translated the word. But "mend/repair/adjust" is more commonly meant than just 'prepare'.

People can take it or leave it. But Heb 11:3 indicates that what occurred in Gen 1:2ff was a restoration or "repair" or "adjustment" of the earth after it became a waste place, uninhabitable.

Next verse is Mark 10:6, which is used by AIG to support their view of a young earth.
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."

Clearly a reference to Genesis 1. However, the word for "creation" is ktisews, #2937, from ktisis. Ktisis is found under ktizoo.

From my "Analytical Greek Lexicon, considing of an alphabetical arrangement of every occurring inflexion of every word contained in the Greek New Testament Scriptures, with a Grammatical Analysis of each word, and lexicograhical Illustration of the Meanings" (yeah, long title):
"properly, to reduce from a state of disorder and wildness". It then goes on to note that in the NT, it means "to call into being, to create, to call into indivudual existence, to frame, to create spiritually, to invest with a spiritual frame."

There is no reason to ignore the proper usage of ktizoo, as bolded and underlined. So in context, Luke was indicating that when God created male and female, He had "created from a state of disorder and wildness", which parallels the Hebrew "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2.

Therefore, I believe that Heb 11:3 and Mark 10:6 support the translation in Gen 1:2 as "but the earth became a waste place, uninhabitable".

I've given both the Hebrew and Greek words to support that view.

For those who feel threatened in some way by the idea that the earth is way older than Adam, on what basis are you threatened? How is Scripture "violated" as one poster has already claimed?
 
And evolution is "crossed out" for us right away in Gods word.

Gen 1:24-25 NASB~~24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind: cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth after their kind; and it was so. 25 God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creeps on the ground after its kind; and God saw that it was good.
 
For those who feel threatened in some way by the idea that the earth is way older than Adam, on what basis are you threatened? How is Scripture "violated" as one poster has already claimed?

Well, the Nasb does not appear to use the Word Hayah in Gen 1:2. I wonder why that was now that I am looking at it. Not important I guess.

The thing that concerns me is that you have to really change some words to different ones and examine the actual language to pull these meanings out. If the Word was meant to be translated "Became" in verse 1:2 then it would have been in the majority of all bibles. I find it hard to believe that we just know more than all those bible translators who understand the Language.

Scriptures 1998
And the earth came to be1 formless and empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. Footnote: 1Or the earth became.
(Gen 1:2)

So though you believe you gave the Greek and Hebrew to support this view, it's a play on words that can mean something else also. I have issues with that as you find this changing of words in a lot of bad doctrines.

Aionios for example is a Greek Adjective, from the root Aion. One is a starting age and ending age, the other continues unless defined being a Greek Adjective. Folks tend to want Aionios to have the same meaning as Aion, and do lots of Word changing to make this happen.

Hayah can be translated became, but it also can denote something that was already there.

Tohu can mean wasteland, but it also can mean just empty, nothing there. Bohu can also mean empty, void. It can also mean waste.

It's this changing words to mean something to support a theory that concern me.

If not evolution, then why go to all the trouble anyway? The only other thing I can think of is some cataclysmic event that occurred with angels before Adam. This can also be disproved pretty easy.

Blessings.
 
OK, seems there isn't any argument about "hayah" meaning "became", which indicates that the earth became something different than how God originally created the earth.

So, second point, we will examine the next words in v.2: "without form and void". The Hebrew is "tohu wabohu". The phrase occurs just 3 times in the OT.

Tohu (without form) means: lie waste, a desolation of surface, figuratively, a worthless thing, adverbially, in vain. Confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, waste, wilderness
Gen 1:2, Deut 32:10, Job 12:24, Psa 107:40

Wabohu (void) to be empty, a vacuity, an indistinguishable ruin.
Only used with the former.

In passages where they occur conjointly (Isa 34:11 and Jer 4:23) they are used to describe the desolatons which were to overspread Idumaea and Palestine respectively, and by which those countries would be reduced from the settled and flourishing condition which they exhibited at the time of the predictions into universal disorder and ruin.

Now, we examine a passage related to Gen 1:1,2. Isa 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created (barah) the heavens; God himself that formed (yatsar) the earth and made (asah) it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain (tohu), he formed (yatsar) it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Here we read that God created out of nothing (barah) the heavens, and formed and made it. Also note that He did NOT "create it in vain", or as a waste place, desolate, etc. See tohu above.

Yet, we read in Gen 1:2 that the earth became a waste place, or desolate, empty, a wilderness. So Isa 45:18 is evidence that something happened between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 and the earth became something else from original creation.

Lest anyone think I have taken liberties in putting in my own wording for tohu as translated in the KJV, this is how the NASB translates that verse:
For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, But formed it to be inhabited), “I am the LORD, and there is none else.

The NASB didn't treat tohu as an adverb.

So Isa 45:18 supports the idea that something changed the earth between v.1 and v.2. Therefore, v.1 refers to original creation, and v.2 refers to the result of what happened between original creation and when v.2ff occurred.

Questions, comments, etc?

Hello, I do have a question on Tohu. I typed this out of my Ramban commentary on Genesis 1. What are your thoughts?

Ramban said:
Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity. The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word bara (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly, He did not create anything, but he formed and made things with it, and from this hyly He brought everything into existence and clothed the forms and put them into a finished condition.

Know that the heavens and all that is in them consists of one substance, and the earth and everythign this is in it consists of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He, created these two substances from nothing; they alone were created, and everything else was constructed from them.

This substance, which the Greeks called hyly, is called in the sacred language tohu, the word being derived from the expression of the Sages: “betohei (when the wicked bethinks himself) of his doings in the past.†If a person wants to decide a name for it [this primordial matter], he may bethink himself, change his mind and call it by another name since it has taken on no form to which the name should be attached. The form which this substance finally takes on is called in the sacred language bohu, which is a composite word made up of the two words bo hu (in it there is [substance]). This may be compared to the verse, Thou art not able 'asohu' (to perform it, Exodus 18:18) in which case the word asohu is missing a vav and an aleph [and I is a composite of the two words] aso hu. It is this which Scripture says, And he shall stretch over it the line of 'tohu' (confusion) and the stones of 'bohu.' (Isaiah 34:11) [The tohu in Hebrew or the hyly in Greek] is the line by which the craftsman delineates the plan of his structure and that which he hopes to make. This is derived from the expression, Kavei (Hope) unto G-d (Psalms 27:14). The stones are forms in the building. Similarly it is written, They are acconted by Him as nought and 'tohu,' (Isaiah 40:17) as tohu comes after nothingness and there is nothing yet in it.

So the Rabbis have also said in Sefer Yetzirah: “He created substance from tohu, and made that which was nothing something.â€

They have furthermore said in the Midrash of Rabbi Nechunya ben Hakanah: “Rabbi Berachyah said: “What is the meaning of the verse, And the earth was 'tohu' (without form) 'vavohu' (and void)? What is the meaning of the word “was?†It had already been tohu. And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people. It was then turned into bohu. And what is bohu? It is a thing which has substance, as it is written, [bohu is a composite of the two words] “bo hu†(in it there is subtance)
 
Well, the Nasb does not appear to use the Word Hayah in Gen 1:2. I wonder why that was now that I am looking at it. Not important I guess.

The thing that concerns me is that you have to really change some words to different ones and examine the actual language to pull these meanings out. If the Word was meant to be translated "Became" in verse 1:2 then it would have been in the majority of all bibles. I find it hard to believe that we just know more than all those bible translators who understand the Language.

Scriptures 1998
And the earth came to be1 formless and empty
, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. Footnote: 1Or the earth became.
(Gen 1:2)

So though you believe you gave the Greek and Hebrew to support this view, it's a play on words that can mean something else also. I have issues with that as you find this changing of words in a lot of bad doctrines.

Aionios for example is a Greek Adjective, from the root Aion. One is a starting age and ending age, the other continues unless defined being a Greek Adjective. Folks tend to want Aionios to have the same meaning as Aion, and do lots of Word changing to make this happen.

Hayah can be translated became, but it also can denote something that was already there.

Tohu can mean wasteland, but it also can mean just empty, nothing there. Bohu can also mean empty, void. It can also mean waste.

It's this changing words to mean something to support a theory that concern me.

If not evolution, then why go to all the trouble anyway? The only other thing I can think of is some cataclysmic event that occurred with angels before Adam. This can also be disproved pretty easy.

Blessings.
Its not evolution. As to your last sentence, can you show us how to disprove it?
 
Well, the Nasb does not appear to use the Word Hayah in Gen 1:2. I wonder why that was now that I am looking at it. Not important I guess.
Huh? The word "hayah" is the original Hebrew. Of course it wouldn't be in any translation. Why were you expecting a Hebrew word to be in any English translation?

The thing that concerns me is that you have to really change some words to different ones and examine the actual language to pull these meanings out.
This is simply not true. I've shown that the exact form of the words in Gen 1:2 occur elsewhere and how they are used elsewhere. That is fact. I've changed nothing. I have demonstrated that the Hebrew words are translated differently in other places. Why is that?

If the Word was meant to be translated "Became" in verse 1:2 then it would have been in the majority of all bibles.
Did you read my comments about Jamieson, Fausset and Brown's commentary on Gen 1:2? Please do.

I have demonstrated that the exact same form of "hayah" in Gen 1:2 WAS translated as "became" in 4 other verses. Why isn't that enough to demonstrate that "became" is a legitimate use of the word?

Further, read the comments about the Greek in Heb 11:3 and Mark 10:6, both of which suggest that God had to adjust or repair the earth before He created man.

I find it hard to believe that we just know more than all those bible translators who understand the Language.
It's really just about context. And those translators who tackled Genesis only really had v.1 for context. Unless they were simultaneously working on Isa 45:18, how would they know?

And how come the NASB did translate "tohu wabohu" in Isa 45:18 as a "waste place"? Were they not scholarly?
Scriptures 1998
And the earth came to be1 formless and empty
, and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was moving on the face of the waters. Footnote: 1Or the earth became.
(Gen 1:2)

So though you believe you gave the Greek and Hebrew to support this view, it's a play on words that can mean something else also. I have issues with that as you find this changing of words in a lot of bad doctrines.
What translation did you use here? Seems to agree with my assessment of the meaning. "came to be" does mean "became".

Aionios for example is a Greek Adjective, from the root Aion. One is a starting age and ending age, the other continues unless defined being a Greek Adjective. Folks tend to want Aionios to have the same meaning as Aion, and do lots of Word changing to make this happen.
I didn't deal with that word. What is your point here? My focus is on the proper understanding of "ktizoo", the base from which "ktisews" is found in Mark 10:6.

Hayah can be translated became, but it also can denote something that was already there.
I never said otherwise. And given Isa 45:18, Heb 11:3 and Mark 10:6, it should be translated "became".

Tohu can mean wasteland, but it also can mean just empty, nothing there. Bohu can also mean empty, void. It can also mean waste.
Only in Gen 1:2 is it rendered "void, without form". I gave all the other occurrences.

It's this changing words to mean something to support a theory that concern me.
So far, you've agreed with my assessment of what words can mean, so how am I "changing words"? I'm dealing with the actual words as found in the original. And showing how they were used in other passages.

If not evolution, then why go to all the trouble anyway?
It's never any trouble defending truth. Is that a problem for you? Does an old earth, apart from evolution, threaten you or your view?

The only other thing I can think of is some cataclysmic event that occurred with angels before Adam. This can also be disproved pretty easy.
By all means, proceed.

It's pretty clear from Gen 1:2 that "some cataclysmic event" took place, which God had to "adjust, repair, etc".
 
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