GAP…theory…or…fact?

[FreeGrace]

Hello, I do have a question on Tohu. I typed this out of my Ramban commentary on Genesis 1. What are your thoughts?

This is what Strong's Hebrew lexicon says about "tohu":
"From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (ofsurface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain:—confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of)nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness."

I think they didn't consult their lexicon.

I've shown that the exact words found in Gen 1:2 have been translated as "became" and "waste place" in other places.

And I've shown that both mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 indicate that there was a restoration.

iow, God restored the waste place as an inhabitable place for Adam.

 

[turnorburn]

Maybe you could show us where "The Bible clearly indicates from Gen 1:2 that the Holy Spirit had to brood over the earth to melt the "waters" comes from? you say the bible clearly indicates this so I'm curious where in the bible does it say the holy spirit melted the waters?

tob

 

[Deborah13]

That source is from here:http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1961&t=KJV

Another resource gets me closer to what you propose, but it still doesn't completely agree with your position.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htm

And​

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hayetah_1961.htm

I didn't know this was in biblehub, thank you for the links!

Which the flood of Noah's time is unable to explain. The Bible clearly indicates from Gen 1:2 that the Holy Spirit had to brood over the earth to melt the "waters", which explained the darkness as well. Sounds world wide. If an ice age occurred at the time of the flood, why wasn't the ark frozen? And how could there be vegetation after the flood waters subsided.

A very good summary in support of an old earth and Noah's flood from a Christian geologist can be found at www.kjvbible.org.

Once again you are adding to what the scripture says, there is absolutely nothing about 'melting' the waters.
At the best you have provided circumstantial evidence for a time gap between when God created the planet, that may have been something like Mars but covered with water, and when He began to make it habitable to sustain life. This time gap COULD have been a split second. As the scriptures say that all was conceived by God before the foundation of the world.

OK, I've shown that "hayah" has been translated as "became" in 4 other places in which the form is the exact same as found in Gen 1:2. I've also shown that Isa 45:18 states that God did not create (barah) the earth as a waste place (NASB, not my imagination).

I've also shown that "without form and void" are correctly translated as "waste place, desolation, etc" in the other occurrences in the OT. And Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary notes that as well.

So, v.2 can properly be translated as "but the earth became a waste place/desolation". The reason I believe that is what Moses was thinking is because of what the NT says about Genesis 1.

So, my 4th point concerns what the NT says in reference to Genesis 1.

Heb 11:3 - Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. KJV NASB has 'prepared'

The Greek word for "framed" is 'katartizo':
katartizō Strong's #: 2675
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

The word occurs 13 times in the NT.
Matt 4:21 and Mark 1:19 used for "mending their nets"
Matt 21:16 used for "perfecting praise out of the mouths of babes" (ethical sense)
Luke 6:40 used for every disciple…that is perfect" (ethical sense)
Rom 9:22 used for "fitted to destruction" (think 'adjusted') iow, no one was created for destruction!
1 Cor 1:10 used for "perfectly joined" (ethical sense)
2 Cor 13:11 used for "be perfect" (ethical sense)
Gal 6:1 used for "restore such a one with gentleness"
1 Thess 3:10 used for "might perfect that which is lacking in your faith" (ethical sense)
Heb 10:5 used for "a body You have prepared Me" (ethical sense)
Heb 11:3 used for worlds were prepared or framed
Heb 13:21 used for "make you perfect" (ethical sense)
1 Pet 5:10 used for "make you perfect" (ethical sense)

I believe Heb 11:3 is telling us that God didn't "frame" the worlds, but He prepared in the sense of repair, as 'katartizo' can mean. Yes, 1b1 is how the NASB translated the word. But "mend/repair/adjust" is more commonly meant than just 'prepare'.

People can take it or leave it. But Heb 11:3 indicates that what occurred in Gen 1:2ff was a restoration or "repair" or "adjustment" of the earth after it became a waste place, uninhabitable.

Next verse is Mark 10:6, which is used by AIG to support their view of a young earth.
"But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female."

Clearly a reference to Genesis 1. However, the word for "creation" is ktisews, #2937, from ktisis. Ktisis is found under ktizoo.

From my "Analytical Greek Lexicon, considing of an alphabetical arrangement of every occurring inflexion of every word contained in the Greek New Testament Scriptures, with a Grammatical Analysis of each word, and lexicograhical Illustration of the Meanings" (yeah, long title):
"properly, to reduce from a state of disorder and wildness". It then goes on to note that in the NT, it means "to call into being, to create, to call into indivudual existence, to frame, to create spiritually, to invest with a spiritual frame."

There is no reason to ignore the proper usage of ktizoo, as bolded and underlined. So in context, Luke was indicating that when God created male and female, He had "created from a state of disorder and wildness", which parallels the Hebrew "tohu wabohu" in Gen 1:2.

Therefore, I believe that Heb 11:3 and Mark 10:6 support the translation in Gen 1:2 as "but the earth became a waste place, uninhabitable".

I've given both the Hebrew and Greek words to support that view.

For those who feel threatened in some way by the idea that the earth is way older than Adam, on what basis are you threatened? How is Scripture "violated" as one poster has already claimed?

According to the Englishman Commentary, that Sinthesis has provided the link, I am finding only One occurrence of that word in the NT and that is Hebrews 11:3.
http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm
Nothing there about restoration of something older, just straight up preparation from what I can see.

It's pretty clear from Gen 1:2 that "some cataclysmic event" took place, which God had to "adjust, repair, etc".

So are you saying that God did know what He was doing when whatever happened, happened? That He had 'repair' His mistake? That "some cataclysmic event" took place without God's allowing for it to happen and in this case, seeing know one existed on the planet besides Him, that something happened without Him commanding it? Wow!

This is what Strong's Hebrew lexicon says about "tohu":
"From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (ofsurface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain:—confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of)nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness."

I think they didn't consult their lexicon.

I've shown that the exact words found in Gen 1:2 have been translated as "became" and "waste place" in other places.

And I've shown that both mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 indicate that there was a restoration.

iow, God restored the waste place as an inhabitable place for Adam.

You did not show that the Greek word is the same in Heb.11:3 as in Mark 10:6
Heb. 11:3 - κατηρτίσθαι
Mark 10:6 - I don't see where that word occurs at all in Mark 10:6. However, here's another scripture that you have used to prove 'restoration'.
Galatians 6:1 - καταρτίζετε
That is Not the same form of the word used in Hebrews 11:3.

Maybe an example from our own English language would be helpful.
"I am standing beside the desk."
"There is no one here besides me."
Both words come from the same root but mean very different things. All that was added was one letter "s" to accomplish this.
"prep. attested from c.1200 (common after c.1400), from beside + adverbial genitive -s. Once sharing all the senses of beside, now properly limited to "in addition to, otherwise."
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/besides

 

[stovebolts]

This is what Strong's Hebrew lexicon says about "tohu":
"From an unused root meaning to lie waste; a desolation (ofsurface), that is, desert; figuratively a worthless thing; adverbially in vain:—confusion, empty place, without form, nothing, (thing of)nought, vain, vanity, waste, wilderness."

I think they didn't consult their lexicon.

I've shown that the exact words found in Gen 1:2 have been translated as "became" and "waste place" in other places.

And I've shown that both mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 indicate that there was a restoration.

iow, God restored the waste place as an inhabitable place for Adam.

With all due fairness, lets just stick with some good old textual exegesis on the word Tohu before we go redacting other verses to create a theology. Can we do that?

What I provided was an except from a highly renowned Jewish commentator who quotes other esteemed Rabbi's who were experts in thier own language.

In all fairness, Strongs is a much better concordance than it ever was a lexicon. Don't get me wrong, Strongs has it's place, but it falls short as a lexicon.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8414.htm
The Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon has this to say.
formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness(primary meaning difficult to seize)
We see above that the primary meaning means difficult to sieze. Formlessness, thus has attached to it "difficult to seize. Confusion also connotes difficult to sieze, as does unreality and emptiness. All of these words carry at their root, "Difficult to sieze".
This agrees with what Ramban quotes the Rabbi's as saying. "And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people." Why do the Rabbi's say this about the word Tohu? "Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality."

It is difficult to seize the idea that nothing came from something. Where did God come from? Was there a God before our God? How do you wrap your mind around an infinite God, or do you just accept that it is true? How does one wrap their mind out Tofu, other than that which astonishes people?

 

[stovebolts]

FreeGrace
Here is how the Jews translate Genesis 1:2
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165#showrashi=true
Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.
Rashi comments: astonishingly empty: Heb. תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ. The word תֹהוּ is an expression of astonishment and desolation, that a person wonders and is astonished at the emptiness therein.

The KJV translates this verse as: And the earth was without form (tohu), and void (bohu);
tohu: that which astonishes; difficult to size, bohu: in it there is subtance.

What picture is the author trying to paint in their original language?

 

[Brother Mike]

So far, you've agreed with my assessment of what words can mean, so how am I "changing words"? I'm dealing with the actual words as found in the original. And showing how they were used in other passages.


It's never any trouble defending truth. Is that a problem for you? Does an old earth, apart from evolution, threaten you or your view?


By all means, proceed.

It's pretty clear from Gen 1:2 that "some cataclysmic event" took place, which God had to "adjust, repair, etc".

I don't disagree that the words can mean other things as you have said. I found at least one translation that supports how you want it worded. You said you did not deal with Aionios, so I have to ask why not? You just digging into alternate meanings of Hebrew and Greek with every thing you study, or you just want to believe in a older earth that was destroyed before Adam so then it suits you to find alternate meanings since most translations don't translate the words the way you like?

When someone just starts looking for alternate meanings to words "Apostasia" and starts changing them to their other meanings despite the context then that is when I get concerned, especially if it's a theory or doctrine they are trying to prove.

The more things get complicated and we have to dig to find these hidden meanings, the more off course we get.

However, you have a reason for making it complicated, so lets just go from there and talk about your theory of why the earth needed to be laid to waste and God had to come back and fix things up again before Adam was put here.

Its not evolution. As to your last sentence, can you show us how to disprove it?

I have to know what version of the doctrine you have on that or your view of it. One view states that we are actually angles, others do not. Both believe Satan trashed the planet, even extending to Mars and other planets. Depends on what you believe.

 

[for_his_glory]

One source is www.kjvbible.org which is from a Christian geologist who believes the earth is actually very old, yet Adam was created about 6,000 years ago. I think the calculations came from lists of genealogies, etc. As I recall, he doesn't address your question about Adam's creation date.

You've brought up some interesting things that I was planning on bringing up later on, after laying all the groundwork to demonstrate that the earth is far older than Adam. Esp Eze 28:11-15. However, you mentioned a "pre-Adamic human beings". I'd come across that idea but no specifics. I've read through Exe 31 but wasn't able to find anything about that. Could you provide some details of this re-Adamic race? I'd appreciate it very much.

You need to study who the Assyrian were in Ezekiel chapter 31 to understand they were here on earth before Adam was created as they lived in Eden.

 

[Sinthesis]

That source is from here:http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1961&t=KJV

Another resource gets me closer to what you propose, but it still doesn't completely agree with your position.
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/genesis/1.htm

And​

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hayetah_1961.htm

How do these resources not "completely agree" with my position?

From the biblehub resource I'm not able to arrive at the idea that "hayah" has been translated as "became" in your 4 other places in which the form is the exact same as found in Gen 1:2. For example, the vowel points don't match in your four favored verses.

 

[Sinthesis]

Hello, I do have a question on Tohu. I typed this out of my Ramban commentary on Genesis 1. What are your thoughts?

E=mc2

 

[Sinthesis]

God didn't do it right the first time?

It describes a creation process. Before the process was finished, that being created wasn't right yet. God only declared His creations good after He finished with them.

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe you could show us where "The Bible clearly indicates from Gen 1:2 that the Holy Spirit had to brood over the earth to melt the "waters" comes from? you say the bible clearly indicates this so I'm curious where in the bible does it say the holy spirit melted the waters?

tob

I did. The Hebrew word translated "hovering" means to brood over, as a hen does her eggs, in order to incubate them.
râchaph
raw-khaf'
A primitive root; to brood; by implication to be relaxed:—flutter, move, shake.

I already gave another verse where the meaning is very clear.

The word "waters" in the Hebrew refers to moving or running water, such as melting water. Because the Holy Spirit brooded over the earth, it should be obvious that such action would melt ice, causing running water.

 

[reba]

Sinthesis IDK it still kinda bugs me... I dont believe He created by trial and error. The universe is too well put together ....

 

[Deborah13]

You need to study who the Assyrian were in Ezekiel chapter 31 to understand they were here on earth before Adam was created as they lived in Eden.

I see that this is an allegory. Just as Israel could be said to be in God's garden or kingdom when they were walking with Him. When they were in idolatry they were cast out into bondage of other nations. Just as the king of Tyre is compared to Lucifer as being in the garden in another scripture.
Here's two quotes from the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge, compliments of e-sword, on these verses.

v10 "Therefore: The allegory and its interpretation are here combined; and the Assyrian monarch, though already destroyed, is poetically addressed."
v5 "his height: The Assyrian king, to whom Pharaoh is compared, from his great power, extensive dominion, and the protection he afforded, resembled the spreading branches, thick shade, and high stature of a flourishing cedar on mount Lebanon. The fruitful lands of Assyria; the immense revenues he drew from vast multitudes in his extensive territories; his lucrative commerce, by the river Tigris, with the countries on the Indian ocean; and all the various sources of his wealth and prosperity, resembled the rivers and streams which cause the trees planted by them to grow and flourish exceedingly; and hence the empire and its head were exalted above all the kingdoms of the earth. Psa_37:35-36; Isa_10:8-14, Isa_36:4, Isa_36:18-19, Isa_37:11-13; Dan_4:11"

 

[FreeGrace]

Once again you are adding to what the scripture says, there is absolutely nothing about 'melting' the waters.

The Holy Spirit brooded over the "waters". The Hebrew plural indicates moving or running water.

Here is the Hebrew:
mayim
mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water;figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, semen:— + piss, wasting,water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).

We know the Holy Spirit brooded over the earth like a hen broods over her eggs; to incubate. Therefore, the running water/flood/watering/etc came from the brooding.

At the best you have provided circumstantial evidence for a time gap between when God created the planet, that may have been something like Mars but covered with water, and when He began to make it habitable to sustain life.

I believe that Mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 confirm the "cirecumstantial evidence".

This time gap COULD have been a split second. As the scriptures say that all was conceived by God before the foundation of the world.

You're speculating. If it took a split second, then God would have just spoken the word and action. But the Scriptures don't say that.

According to the Englishman Commentary, that Sinthesis has provided the link, I am finding only One occurrence of that word in the NT and that is Hebrews 11:3.
http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm
Nothing there about restoration of something older, just straight up preparation from what I can see.

Did you look up the Greek word 'katartizo'? I already gave all its usages in the NT plus what the lexicon says. Don't forget Mark 10:6.

So are you saying that God did know what He was doing when whatever happened, happened?

Of course He knew what He was doing.

That He had 'repair' His mistake?

Who said it was His mistake? And who said it was a mistake? That's just speculation. The Bible does not tell us specifically HOW the earth became a waste place, but it did become that.

That "some cataclysmic event" took place without God's allowing for it to happen and in this case, seeing know one existed on the planet besides Him, that something happened without Him commanding it? Wow!

I never said that anything occurred without God allowing for it to happen? More speculation. Why must everything that happens be because God "commanded it"? That denies free will. But, maybe you are reformed.

You did not show that the Greek word is the same in Heb.11:3 as in Mark 10:6
Heb. 11:3 - κατηρτίσθαι
Mark 10:6 - I don't see where that word occurs at all in Mark 10:6. However, here's another scripture that you have used to prove 'restoration'.
Galatians 6:1 - καταρτίζετε
That is Not the same form of the word used in Hebrews 11:3.

I'm not talking about the same form here. Only the same word. And I gave the meanings.

 

[FreeGrace]

With all due fairness, lets just stick with some good old textual exegesis on the word Tohu before we go redacting other verses to create a theology. Can we do that?

What I provided was an except from a highly renowned Jewish commentator who quotes other esteemed Rabbi's who were experts in thier own language.

In all fairness, Strongs is a much better concordance than it ever was a lexicon. Don't get me wrong, Strongs has it's place, but it falls short as a lexicon.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/8414.htm
The Brown-Driver-Briggs lexicon has this to say.
formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness(primary meaning difficult to seize)
We see above that the primary meaning means difficult to sieze. Formlessness, thus has attached to it "difficult to seize. Confusion also connotes difficult to sieze, as does unreality and emptiness. All of these words carry at their root, "Difficult to sieze".
This agrees with what Ramban quotes the Rabbi's as saying. "And what is tohu? It is a thing which astonishes people." Why do the Rabbi's say this about the word Tohu? "Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having the power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality."

It is difficult to seize the idea that nothing came from something. Where did God come from? Was there a God before our God? How do you wrap your mind around an infinite God, or do you just accept that it is true? How does one wrap their mind out Tofu, other than that which astonishes people?

I don't see this as relevant. I given the words and how they were used in other passages; same form, in fact. And I cited Jameison, Faussett and Brown Commentary on the verse, where they acknowledge that "eminent critics" accept the "waste place" translation and "became" from Gen 1:2.

 

[FreeGrace]

FreeGrace
Here is how the Jews translate Genesis 1:2
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8165#showrashi=true
Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.
Rashi comments: astonishingly empty: Heb. תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ. The word תֹהוּ is an expression of astonishment and desolation, that a person wonders and is astonished at the emptiness therein.

The KJV translates this verse as: And the earth was without form (tohu), and void (bohu);
tohu: that which astonishes; difficult to size, bohu: in it there is subtance.

What picture is the author trying to paint in their original language?

None of this refutes what I've presented. Let's now deal with the Greek that I've presented.

 

[Deborah13]

Sinthesis IDK it still kinda bugs me... I dont believe He created by trial and error. The universe is too well put together ....

There is no scripture that I know of, that supports the idea that there was anyone else who came along and marred the creation of God from start to finish, when He declared it good.

I'm with you, it was God's work and He doesn't make mistakes. Therefore, no 'repairs' were needed.

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis IDK it still kinda bugs me... I dont believe He created by trial and error. The universe is too well put together ....

Not trial and error, but process. Before God breathed into Adam, he was only dust given the form of man. He wasn't done yet. Before God undertook the daily steps of Gen 1 the earth was without form and void because it wasn't done yet.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't disagree that the words can mean other things as you have said. I found at least one translation that supports how you want it worded. You said you did not deal with Aionios, so I have to ask why not? You just digging into alternate meanings of Hebrew and Greek with every thing you study, or you just want to believe in a older earth that was destroyed before Adam so then it suits you to find alternate meanings since most translations don't translate the words the way you like?

This is not about what I "like". It's about the fact of what actually happened. Science, through observation and measurements, way before ol' Darwin, believed that the earth was very old. And I already gave the history of Chalmers, Lyell, and Darwin. So an old earth way predates "Origin of the Species", proving that this isn't about evolution.

When someone just starts looking for alternate meanings to words "Apostasia" and starts changing them to their other meanings despite the context then that is when I get concerned, especially if it's a theory or doctrine they are trying to prove.

When the NT Greek is included with the Hebrew, it seems obvious that there was a time gap. If you don't see it, ok.

btw, what's the threat if the earth actually is way older than Adam?

The more things get complicated and we have to dig to find these hidden meanings, the more off course we get.

2 Tim 2:15 answers that idea.

However, you have a reason for making it complicated, so lets just go from there and talk about your theory of why the earth needed to be laid to waste and God had to come back and fix things up again before Adam was put here.

I never said the earth "needed" anything. Please don't assume what you don't know.

I have to know what version of the doctrine you have on that or your view of it.

I have no version of any doctrine. I have provided Hebrew and Greek words. What's the threat here?

One view states that we are actually angles, others do not. Both believe Satan trashed the planet, even extending to Mars and other planets. Depends on what you believe.

OK. My point wasn't to "prove" how it occurred. Just that it did.

 

[FreeGrace]

You need to study who the Assyrian were in Ezekiel chapter 31 to understand they were here on earth before Adam was created as they lived in Eden.

Could you direct me to some source in order to study who they were and the idea that they existed on earth before Adam. iow, where in Scripture does it indicate that there were pre Adamic human beings on earth?