GAP…theory…or…fact?

[FreeGrace]

From the biblehub resource I'm not able to arrive at the idea that "hayah" has been translated as "became" in your 4 other places in which the form is the exact same as found in Gen 1:2. For example, the vowel points don't match in your four favored verses.

I'm sorry. My source didn't give vowel points. Which I've already explained. I went with English spelling as what was the same form of the word. And my sources do show that they are all the same.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sinthesis IDK it still kinda bugs me... I dont believe He created by trial and error. The universe is too well put together ....

I do not believe that God did anything by trial and error. Or He wouldn't be God.

 

[reba]

Not trial and error, but process. Before God breathed into Adam, he was only dust given the form of man. He wasn't done yet. Before God undertook the daily steps of Gen 1 the earth was without form and void because it wasn't done yet.

that reads a lot better....

 

[reba]

. . . .
It's pretty clear from Gen 1:2 that "some cataclysmic event" took place, which God had to "adjust, repair, etc".

I do not believe that God did anything by trial and error. Or He wouldn't be God.

 

[Deborah13]

The Holy Spirit brooded over the "waters". The Hebrew plural indicates moving or running water.

Here is the Hebrew:
mayim
mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water;figuratively juice; by euphemism urine, semen:— + piss, wasting,water (-ing, [-course, -flood, -spring]).

We know the Holy Spirit brooded over the earth like a hen broods over her eggs; to incubate. Therefore, the running water/flood/watering/etc came from the brooding.

A brood hen does not 'brood' over her eggs to incubate them. She broods (incubates) in order to bring life forth from those eggs. Brooding is incubation, they are synonymous terms in the sense of what they accomplish.
There is in no sense of the word 'mayim' of being frozen rather than liquid to begin with. Even in the very definition you have used from Strong's it says,
"mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water;figuratively juice; by euphemism
That no way implies that it was frozen in a lump, just that it covered the whole earth rather than being broken up by land mass.

I believe that Mark 10:6 and Heb 11:3 confirm the "cirecumstantial evidence".

Show me where that word is even used in Mark 10:6 and I will concede if it is used in the same form. I don't see it there at all. Please quote the scripture and identify the word in bold that you are talking about.

You're speculating. If it took a split second, then God would have just spoken the word and action. But the Scriptures don't say that.

As so far, you are and Mr. Jamison was also by his own words which you quoted.

Did you look up the Greek word 'katartizo'? I already gave all its usages in the NT plus what the lexicon says. Don't forget Mark 10:6.

What you saying, I copied and pasted directly from the Englishman's Concordance and gave the link. Did you fail to examine it. I don't care how many times a base word is used, we are looking at exact words for exact meanings.
Remember the example of beside and besides. One letter can make a huge difference.
Here is the link again to the Englishman's Concordance showing that form of the word is only used One, One, time in the NT. http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm

Of course He knew what He was doing.
Who said it was His mistake? And who said it was a mistake? That's just speculation. The Bible does not tell us specifically HOW the earth became a waste place, but it did become that.

I never said that anything occurred without God allowing for it to happen? More speculation. Why must everything that happens be because God "commanded it"? That denies free will. But, maybe you are reformed.

Oh but WHO's free will do you claim was present other than God's?


I'm not talking about the same form here. Only the same word. And I gave the meanings.[/QUOTE]

 

[Deborah13]

Not trial and error, but process. Before God breathed into Adam, he was only dust given the form of man. He wasn't done yet. Before God undertook the daily steps of Gen 1 the earth was without form and void because it wasn't done yet.

:yes I can agree with that.

Yes, two very conflicting statements. One does not need to 'repair' something that is not broken. If it was broken then God did not do it. So who did?

 

[for_his_glory]

Could you direct me to some source in order to study who they were and the idea that they existed on earth before Adam. iow, where in Scripture does it indicate that there were pre Adamic human beings on earth?

The source is scripture as if you would read Ezekiel chapter 31 you will see they were in the garden of Eden before that of Adam being placed there. (Edited, Tos 2.4. Obadiah.) Just do a study on Assyrians in the Garden of Eden.

 

[Gregg]

The source is scripture as if you would read Ezekiel chapter 31 you will see they were in the garden of Eden before that of Adam being placed there. (Edited, Tos 2.4. Obadiah.) Just do a study on Assyrians in the Garden of Eden.

Are you saying that Adam was not the first man created?

or perhaps

that other men were created, or born, before Adam sinned in the garden of Eden?


.

 

[FreeGrace]

There is no scripture that I know of, that supports the idea that there was anyone else who came along and marred the creation of God from start to finish, when He declared it good.

I'm with you, it was God's work and He doesn't make mistakes. Therefore, no 'repairs' were needed.

Heb 11:3 and Mark 10:6 suggest something different. Not that God made a mistake. Far from it. But the earth did become a waste place, and God adjusted/fixed/repaired it.

From my Greek-English NT interlinear as it follows the Greek:
"By faith we understand to have been adjusted (katartizo) the ages by a word of Ghod, so as not out of things appearing the thing being seen to have become". Not very smooth by English standards, but my point is that Alfred Marshall, the author of this interlinear treated 'katartizo' as adjusted. iow, from original creation, Gen 1:1, the earth became a waste place, and God "adjusted" it so that Adam could survive.

Again, God made no mistake. He didn't "command" that the earth become a waste place. But it did. And He had to adjust it before Adam could live on it.

 

[Gregg]

Again, God made no mistake. He didn't "command" that the earth become a waste place. But it did. And He had to adjust it before Adam could live on it.

Do you have an idea what may have caused the 'earth to become a waste place' before Adam was created?

 

[FreeGrace]

The source is scripture as if you would read Ezekiel chapter 31 you will see they were in the garden of Eden before that of Adam being placed there. (Edited, Tos 2.4. Obadiah.) Just do a study on Assyrians in the Garden of Eden.

I read Eze 31 when you mentioned it and I do not see anyone in Eden before Adam. Back in 28, we do see that the "king of Tyre" was in Eden when he was created.
Eze 28:13-15
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

OK, it says that he "has been in Eden" and was "perfect in his ways fropm the day that he was created, until iniquity was found in him". And when we read Genesis 1-3, he is already fully in iniquity. But he was there before iniquity was found in him.

(Edited, Tos 2.4. Obadiah.) Just do a study on Assyrians in the Garden of Eden.

Since I do not find what you claim in Eze 31, I'll just let it slide. But thanks anyway for the encouragement.

 

[Brother Mike]

You need to study who the Assyrian were in Ezekiel chapter 31 to understand they were here on earth before Adam was created as they lived in Eden.

Well, here is something new I never have heard. One reason to be on the forums I guess.

Could you direct me to some source in order to study who they were and the idea that they existed on earth before Adam. iow, where in Scripture does it indicate that there were pre Adamic human beings on earth?

I am also curious. I don't see it, and it does not even compute with the simple genenolgy.

Let's assume there was a gap, why is that important. I use to believe in some fallen kingdom before Adam, but years and more study have changed my mind about it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Do you have an idea what may have caused the 'earth to become a waste place' before Adam was created?

Of course I do. But that's not what this thread is about. Only that there was a time gap, in which the earth became a waste place. What actually happened is only conjecture.

My view is that since Eze 28:11-15 indicates that Satan was in Eden and was perfect from the day he was created. But in Gen 1-3, he wasn't perfect at all. He had already fallen. Conclusion: after he fell, he made planet earth his HQ. And he trashed the place. So when God created human beings to prove something to Satan, he "adjusted" the planet in order for Adam to be able to live there.

I can't think of another idea as to why the earth became a waste place.

 

[for_his_glory]

I see that this is an allegory. Just as Israel could be said to be in God's garden or kingdom when they were walking with Him. When they were in idolatry they were cast out into bondage of other nations. Just as the king of Tyre is compared to Lucifer as being in the garden in another scripture.
Here's two quotes from the Treasury of Scriptural Knowledge, compliments of e-sword, on these verses.

v10 "Therefore: The allegory and its interpretation are here combined; and the Assyrian monarch, though already destroyed, is poetically addressed."
v5 "his height: The Assyrian king, to whom Pharaoh is compared, from his great power, extensive dominion, and the protection he afforded, resembled the spreading branches, thick shade, and high stature of a flourishing cedar on mount Lebanon. The fruitful lands of Assyria; the immense revenues he drew from vast multitudes in his extensive territories; his lucrative commerce, by the river Tigris, with the countries on the Indian ocean; and all the various sources of his wealth and prosperity, resembled the rivers and streams which cause the trees planted by them to grow and flourish exceedingly; and hence the empire and its head were exalted above all the kingdoms of the earth. Psa_37:35-36; Isa_10:8-14, Isa_36:4, Isa_36:18-19, Isa_37:11-13; Dan_4:11"

When God cast out Cain in Genesis Chapter four Cain made the statement that everyone that finds him will slay him and Cain went to dwell in the land of Nod. We only hear at this time in Genesis chapter four that there were only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel as they were their first two children. When Cain was cast out scripture says he went to Nod,knew his wife and conceived a son, so where did she come from if there were not others created before Adam.

 

[FreeGrace]

A brood hen does not 'brood' over her eggs to incubate them. She broods (incubates) in order to bring life forth from those eggs. Brooding is incubation, they are synonymous terms in the sense of what they accomplish.

Semantics? No real difference here.

There is in no sense of the word 'mayim' of being frozen rather than liquid to begin with. Even in the very definition you have used from Strong's it says,
"mah'-yim
Dual of a primitive noun (but used in a singular sense); water;figuratively juice; by euphemism
That no way implies that it was frozen in a lump, just that it covered the whole earth rather than being broken up by land mass.

Is your source claiming that this primitive noun is only used in a singular sense? Then why is it found in the plural?

Show me where that word is even used in Mark 10:6 and I will concede if it is used in the same form. I don't see it there at all. Please quote the scripture and identify the word in bold that you are talking about.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to. What "word" in Mark 10:6. The word I have explained was "ktisis", or in the actual Greek text, "ktisews". I explained how I found the proper meaning, "from a state of disorder and wildness".

As so far, you are and Mr. Jamison was also by his own words which you quoted.

I cannot figure out this sentence. Please advise.

What you saying, I copied and pasted directly from the Englishman's Concordance and gave the link. Did you fail to examine it. I don't care how many times a base word is used, we are looking at exact words for exact meanings.
Remember the example of beside and besides. One letter can make a huge difference.

Meanings of words don't change by a letter. In the Greek, various letters indicate the different moods, voice, and tense. Not meaning.

Here is the link again to the Englishman's Concordance showing that form of the word is only used One, One, time in the NT. http://biblehub.com/greek/kate_rtisthai_2675.htm

What is the point here? Or, so what?

Oh but WHO's free will do you claim was present other than God's?

You mean who trashed the place? Scripture doesn't say.

 

[FreeGrace]

Let's assume there was a gap, why is that important. I use to believe in some fallen kingdom before Adam, but years and more study have changed my mind about it.

What was your source of study and what did it prove? Would you care to share?

 

[FreeGrace]

When God cast out Cain in Genesis Chapter four Cain made the statement that everyone that finds him will slay him and Cain went to dwell in the land of Nod. We only hear at this time in Genesis chapter four that there were only Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel as they were their first two children. When Cain was cast out scripture says he went to Nod,knew his wife and conceived a son, so where did she come from if there were not others created before Adam.

I would call this an assumption. Just because Scripture doesn't give us a complete list of Adam's kids, there is no reason to assume that there were other "humans" or pre-humans or anyone other than Adam's kids. Remember how long they lived. We have no idea when Cain left the family. Could have been hundreds of kids by then. We just don't know, but your assumption of other than Adam's line is quite a leap, imho.

 

[for_his_glory]

Well, here is something new I never have heard. One reason to be on the forums I guess.




I am also curious. I don't see it, and it does not even compute with the simple genenolgy.

Let's assume there was a gap, why is that important. I use to believe in some fallen kingdom before Adam, but years and more study have changed my mind about it.

Brother Mike, I never saw it before either until I put Genesis creation account and that of Ezekiel chapter 31 together and dug deeper into the scriptures. There is the possibility that God created others before Adam that walked in disobedience to God, thus the lineage of Adam had to be created for the purpose of Christ coming to Earth, even though Christ was before the very foundation of the world.

 

[for_his_glory]

I would call this an assumption. Just because Scripture doesn't give us a complete list of Adam's kids, there is no reason to assume that there were other "humans" or pre-humans or anyone other than Adam's kids. Remember how long they lived. We have no idea when Cain left the family. Could have been hundreds of kids by then. We just don't know, but your assumption of other than Adam's line is quite a leap, imho.

God told Adam to replenish the Earth and after the flood told Noah to replenish the Earth. Why would God say to replenish if there were not others before Adam just as there were others before Noah.........just saying!

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you saying that Adam was not the first man created?

or perhaps

that other men were created, or born, before Adam sinned in the garden of Eden?


.

I'm just saying the possibility is there just by what I have studied, but it really makes no difference other than it being maybe a part of past history.