Giving up

[francisdesales]

Well see that's another evidence that John gives us that we are saved. John says that if a man says he loves God yet hates his brother he is a liar. And John also says that we know we are God's children if we love our brothers. Those are more fruits of salvation and redemption in our lives. You cannot deny all the past tense usages of "bought" and "redeemed" and "justified" and "sanctified" and "baptised" and "saved" and so on an so forth. There is a definate and assured element that we can stand firm on that we are walking with God and are saved.

Brother,

You and I both know of many so-called "saved" people who are not very loving human beings. Sometimes, so-called "redeemed" Christians can be the most rude, selfish, and obnoxious people. Sorry, being "saved" 20 years ago doesn't mean you are saved now. Evidence of your current status will depend upon how you treat your brother. TODAY.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

You and I both know of many so-called "saved" people who are not very loving human beings. Sometimes, so-called "redeemed" Christians can be the most rude, selfish, and obnoxious people. Sorry, being "saved" 20 years ago doesn't mean you are saved now. Evidence of your current status will depend upon how you treat your brother. TODAY.

Your terminology goes hand in hand with what Paul used for a person who had "claimed to be a brother" yet lived in sexual immorality. Paul implied that this man was not saved. You are correct in saying "so-called" for James also points out those who would have so-called faith, exposing it for false faith which never bore fruit. Today is the day in which we are to sanctify ourselves, but past salvation is not lightly taken or given away as if salvation could be taken and given like a ping-pong ball bouncing over a net. Its a one shot in either direction. You are either crashing or being renewed. There are those who constantly struggle, as all Christians do, but salvation and grace offered by the Holy Spirit in you when you are saved is either accepted or rejected. Once you reject the Holy Spirit its over, you have blasphemed the Spirit and that is the unforgivable sin. Salvation is not as light a matter as you are protraying it.

 

[cyberjosh]

Francis,

Thanks for replying. I will reply to your first post in light of your second one, skipping that paragraph at first kinda messed up your view of what I was trying to say... ;)

Yes, again, the OSAS idea forces you to judge FOR YOURSELF whether you have achieved a certain level of faith. Naturally, being that human nature is apt in fooling itself, the typical "born-again Christian" will say "Yea, I have saving faith". Who would say "no, I don't have enough yet"! This is the problem with OSAS. MAN makes the judgment,

I've tried to correct any misconception that people think that I believe that I thin once your saved you can fold your hands and sit back. Infact the opposite. What I've been tryint to point out is that those saved by Jesus demonstrate a changed nature. As for "judging myself" I am only doing so in the same manner of which you said, "I am being saved - I know this because I am obeying the Commandments." I know that I am being saved also because I too am obeying his commandments. That whole point of that big paragraph was to show you what we really can know. But I know that we must persevere into the future, that is given. I let God judge me but in the mean time I walk by his word and Spirit and he has given me promises by which to stand on.

Now, on salvation. Yes, we have been saved. But let's define that moment in the past. We came to the realization that Christ is our Savior. We understood that our sins were forgiven. We realized that we were no longer slaves to sin. AT THAT MOMENT.

Well please remember what I said earlier in my discussion, some people mistakenly attribute belief to an event rather than a state of mind. Belief is always used in the active, continuing sense. Whosoever believes in Him... The thing is we do recieve God's present promises by the Holy Spirit as a seal.

First of all, yes I WAS saved. I never denied that. The Holy Spirit came to me and has healed me from sin, made me into a new creation, marked me with His seal, the first installment which I have inherited while doing nothing to earn it. AGAIN, though, I tell you that "saved" has different meanings in Scriptures. Thus, yes I WAS saved. Yes, I am being saved - I know this because I am obeying the Commandments. I cannot do this unless the Spirit of God abides in me. However, WILL I be saved in the end? That, my friend, is something Paul calls HOPE. We HOPE we will be saved in the end. I have inherited something, but I can throw it away, since our free will has not been destroyed upon God's entry into my soul.

I will present this as kindly as possible, but I believe that you are misusing the word "hope". The Bible has many words which are not as shallow as they are used in the English language today. For example "belief" for us means an intellectual assent of something. In the Bible belief implies obedience and I can prove to you via Hebrew parallelism and direct statement that beleif means obedience, while disbelief means disobediance. In the same spirit of the depth of the Bible's meanings for its words, I posit that hope is more firm and founded upon promises of God, as the Bible clearly says, and the Bible says that our hope is in God, just as we are in God and preserved in God.

My commentary says this for "hope" in Romans 5:2 :

hope of the glory of God. Unlike the English word "hope," the NT word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something, that is certain, but not yet realized. The believer's ultimate destiny is to share the very glory of God (Rom 8:29,10; John 17:22, 2 Cor 3:18; Phil 3:20,21; 1 John 3:1,2) and that hope will be realized because Christ himself secures it (1 Tim. 1:1). Without clear and certain promises of the Word of God the believer would have no basis for hope (Rom 15:4; Psalm 119:81, 114; Eph. 2:12; Jer 14:8).

P.S Soon I will make a general presentation of my present arguement and allow you, unread, and Tan to critque it.

 

[TanNinety]

Doesn't the confession of our Lord as our Savior mean we obey His commands? What sort of ruler do you have in mind that you don't have to obey what He commands?

Couldn’t have said it any better.

Everyone wants a Lord who is pacified by lip service.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Oh yes sir, they sure do call Him Lord and Savior, but they ask “when did He command us to obey?†I guess Yeshua didn’t emphasize enough of “those who do the will of my Father†enough or “if you love me keep my commandsâ€Â.

Every one is seeking a Lord that is going to be pleased with “confession of mouth.â€Â
Lets see if this is the case:

“Not every one that says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name, and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity†Matthew 7:21 23

Wouldn't these be ones who had a clue about calling Him "Lord" with their mouths but never realized to obey(work) the commands He gave?

 

[TanNinety]

Especially how practice comes in, when would it count?

Let me see if I can explain my thoughts better this way.

Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity were walking down the road of life. Adam and Eve did something wrong. Consequence was death. A huge wall has been placed on the road of life. God tried to help us get over this wall into His kingdom back on the road of life for thousands of years. None could make it to the other side. He sends His Son. His Son obeying the commands of God and not of men climbs the wall and as He climbs the wall He makes stairs so those who follow Him could climb up to the other side with Him into the kingdom of God.

Now has He saved us? Yeah, He sure did by building those stairs. His act is complete. Now if we say “we are already saved†this puts us on the other side of the wall which requires no climbing of the stairs and following the footsteps of Yeshua. Now how are we saved? It is a process of us obeying His commands following up the stairs that leads us into the other side of the wall. Not just saying “oh He already walked the walk for meâ€Â. Yeshua is not going to piggyback you. That is entirely up to you. Now those who get up those stairs can be sure that He is faithful to catch us when we fall or stumble. There is not a big enough fall that He cant save us through if only we reach out our hand in obedience. Now if one feels the walk is too difficult, wants to call Him “Lord†but not walk the walk, they can roll down the stairs and imagine that they are on the other side of the wall.

Now, people might ask me would that not make one proud and boastful of their salvation of their works. NO. Lets say you crossed the golden gate bridge. Do you boast about how the bridge was your work? How the road was your work? How the car you drove in was your work? No. Someone else provided that for you. You merely took a drive. That is nothing to boast about.

OSAS says once you take the first step on the stairs that Yeshua built then you are already on the other side of the wall. No you have to “endure the walk till the end†just as it is written in scripture with “fear and tremblingâ€Â.

As a past tense, Yes, He saved us by building the stairs of salvation.
As a present tense, Yes, He is catching us as we stumble down the stairs.
As a future tense, Yes, we are waiting on entering the kingdom of God on the other side of the wall. Hope it made sense, how works (that word has such negative connotation ..it actually merely means nothing but being humble and obedient and lowly and giving yourself as a servant to the one you call Lord ..nothing to be proud of ..nothing that makes you boast) ..fit into the walk of salvation.

 

[francisdesales]

Your terminology goes hand in hand with what Paul used for a person who had "claimed to be a brother" yet lived in sexual immorality. Paul implied that this man was not saved. You are correct in saying "so-called" for James also points out those who would have so-called faith, exposing it for false faith which never bore fruit. Today is the day in which we are to sanctify ourselves, but past salvation is not lightly taken or given away as if salvation could be taken and given like a ping-pong ball bouncing over a net. Its a one shot in either direction. You are either crashing or being renewed. There are those who constantly struggle, as all Christians do, but salvation and grace offered by the Holy Spirit in you when you are saved is either accepted or rejected.

Cybershark,

Yes, it is accepted or rejected - based on our actions of love, not on some emotion-filled altar call done 20 years ago.

Once you reject the Holy Spirit its over, you have blasphemed the Spirit and that is the unforgivable sin. Salvation is not as light a matter as you are protraying it.

LIGHTLY! HARDLY! Just the opposite, brother! I hold to the fact that we must persevere UNTIL THE END. Not just at that altar call! I certainly do not take salvation lightly, realizing that I can be disqualified in the end (just as Paul says he could, as well.)

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I've tried to correct any misconception that people think that I believe that I thin once your saved you can fold your hands and sit back. Infact the opposite. What I've been tryint to point out is that those saved by Jesus demonstrate a changed nature.

But not throughout their whole life! Sure they do at first. However, over and over, practical experience makes Paul re-consider such lofty words. For example, the words to the Corinthians that BELIEVERS are not going to inherit the Kingdom:

It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you... 1 Cor 5:1

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor 5:4-5. Note, it says MAY, not WILL.

But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 1 Cor 5:11-12

After further counciling the Corinthians on taking other brothers to court, he continues his condemnation:

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9-10

This is just one example of MANY where Paul says that members of the Church, the community, those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, had faltered and fallen away, and that the brothers were to take action to remove this bad leaven from the community in hope of re-conversion.

As for "judging myself" I am only doing so in the same manner of which you said, "I am being saved - I know this because I am obeying the Commandments." I know that I am being saved also because I too am obeying his commandments.

We agree here, but you cannot know you will continue on this narrow path, now, can you? No. We don't know. That is why we are over and over told to PERSEVERE. Why would anyone tell a Christian who is supposedly led by puppet strings to obey God to persevere? This implies rather strongly that we do NOT have to persevere... The proof that this is the case I have outlined above.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes, it is accepted or rejected - based on our actions of love, not on some emotion-filled altar call done 20 years ago.

Exactly. I wonder where we missed base on this one. I said several times that belief is not an event but rather a state of mind, so it couldn't possibly be based on just one action we did 20 years ago. My focus is what God does on his end by giving us the grace to persevere, while it is our job to continually keep faith and obey his commands and walk after him. I just think they are alot alike because God can prompt you toward good works supposing you don't outright refuse to listen.

LIGHTLY! HARDLY! Just the opposite, brother! I hold to the fact that we must persevere UNTIL THE END. Not just at that altar call! I certainly do not take salvation lightly, realizing that I can be disqualified in the end (just as Paul says he could, as well.)

I apologize if we missed base on this one. My emphasis was on how God gives us much grace and much power (dunamis) through Jesus' blood and start giving it to us actively, and immediately once we make the choice to follow him and it is not lightly shrugged off when someone is God's child. You (the Christian) can't really ignore it and if you try to run God will discipline you, so I meant to say that it would be difficult to lose your salvation if it is even possible (which I will try to discuss with you here shortly). Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying though.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Couldn’t have said it any better.

Everyone wants a Lord who is pacified by lip service.

the bible is full of such commands and exhortations...OBEY OBEY OBEY!

My post-lunch prayers included the following Psalm:

The LORD hath sworn [in] truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired [it] for his habitation. This [is] my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it. Psalm 132:11-14

I think one is hard pressed to NOT find such things in Scriptures...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I apologize if we missed base on this one. My emphasis was on how God gives us much grace and much power (dunamis) through Jesus' blood and start giving it to us actively, and immediately once we make the choice to follow him and it is not lightly shrugged off when someone is God's child. You (the Christian) can't really ignore it and if you try to run God will discipline you, so I meant to say that it would be difficult to lose your salvation if it is even possible (which I will try to discuss with you here shortly). Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying though.

God Bless,

~Josh

After reading your recent posts, it appears you do not believe in OSAS. It appears that our current actions determine whether we believe TODAY. While the event of the past is important, you appear to agree with me that we must remain in our belief - and in the end, our belief in God must have been acted out. Apparently, then, we are closer in agreeing than we had thought. However, I would like to know how you can be sure that you will believe in the future? God will provide the way, but will we reject His grace in the future? Thus, we can never take lightly our salvation.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Ok, here is my general presentation to all of you for us to discuss:

Currently we are debating on whether one can lose one's salvation or not. We all agree those those who will be saved in the end are those who persevere. The issue is how to view the present. I see a reconciliation of the exhortations not to fall away and the promises to those who peresevere via a paradox which I will explain shortly. I may be wrong, that's why I am presenting that here so that you can present me with doctrine to consider.

I emphasise that the belief which the Bible tells us to have must be a constant state of mind and not something that suddenly sprouts up and withers (like the seed on stony ground - a hard heart that tried to accept God's word but fell away). James calls this false faith, or demonic faith (in which even the demons believe), but he calls true faith that which bears fruit. As I see it, the condition of salvation is that we have the true belief (constant, active) that bears fruit. Thus, though I see an aspect of persevering to the end to obtain salvation, I also see a few verses that tell us that we have already obtained it through grace, in which God presently forgives us of our sins. We are told what we are in Christ Jesus, and that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The liberty we have therein does not give us an excuse for the flesh, but rather obligates us to follow the Law of Christ. In so doing we will, or must in order to obey it, sanctify ourselves. The issue: Does God's seal and present salvation propmt us to stay away from sin? Can God's gifts which are irrevocable be torn away from the Child of God.

I will play Devil's Advocate presently (I know some will not like the arguement - but will present it none the less, so don't yell at me it the commentary is wrong ;)), and will quote my commentary which tries to tie alot of things together about the past and present aspects of salvation. It is commentary on Matthew 24:13 and hopefully will answer Fancis's question that said, "That is why we are over and over told to PERSEVERE. Why would anyone tell a Christian who is supposedly led by puppet strings to obey God to persevere? This implies rather strongly that we do NOT have to persevere...."

Judge for yourself the truthfulness of the commentary (I might underline a part or two for emphasis of where I would like to focus):

endures to the end...be saved. Cf. 10:22. The one's who peresevere are the same one's who are saved - not the ones whose love Grows cold (previous verse, v. 12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers "are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation" (1 Peter 1:5). The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Covenant promise. God says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me" (Jeremiah 32:40). Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truely believers to begin with (1 John 2:19). To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive in the process, however. He keeps us "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5) - our faith. Scripture sometimes calls us to hold fast to our faith (Hebrews 10:23; Revelation 3:11) or warns us against falling away (Hebrews 10:26-29). Such admonitions do not negate the many promises that true believers will persevere (John 10:28, 29; Romans 8:38, 39; 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9; Phil 1:6). Rather, the warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the faith. Noctice that the warnings and the promises often occur side by side. For example, when Jude urges believers, "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21) he immediately points them to God, "who is able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24).

Consider the points and then feel free to discuss this with me. I figured this would be the best way just to get all the cards on the table so we can start narrowing down our doctine.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

After reading your recent posts, it appears you do not believe in OSAS. It appears that our current actions determine whether we believe TODAY.

You are mostly correct about what I believe. Right now I'm not claiming to know anything 100%, and no I don't believe OSAS in the traditional sense. Actually, I don't even call it that. Instead, like you, I emphasize perseverance. Today is very important and determines what our relationship with God will be like. But since I wanted to play Devil's Advocate a little longer towards God keeping you, I presented the above general arguement. I look forward to your most reasonable feedback. You are strong in your doctrine as I am and I have faith that we can resolve this Biblically.

God Bless my Brother,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

You are mostly correct about what I believe. Right now I'm not claiming to know anything 100%, and no I don't believe OSAS in the traditional sense. Actually, I don't even call it that. Instead, like you, I emphasize perseverance.

Ok, glad to hear that. Welcome aboard! I imagine you will agree with me that there is some sort of cooperation between us and God. Without God, I am nothing. With God, I can do all. ME! But I cannot take the credit alone, because it is impossible for men to be saved without God. Jesus clearly says that in His after-action commentary when the Rich Young Man left. And along with that, we are told to persevere and obey the commandments. Thus, there is some element of cooperation that God expects - although even that is from God (as Phil 2:12-13 stresses).

Today is very important and determines what our relationship with God will be like. But since I wanted to play Devil's Advocate a little longer towards God keeping you, I presented the above general arguement. I look forward to your most reasonable feedback. You are strong in your doctrine as I am and I have faith that we can resolve this Biblically.

I believe that all the doctrines that I believe in have biblical background, whether explicit or implicit. I appreciate your willingness to look at both points of view. Most people I run into already know everything...

Probably including me, from their point of view.

I think it takes something from God to snap us out of that "know-it-all" attitude. I like coming here because I learn a lot from other Protestants that I agree with, such as unred and Tan. They have a way of explaining things in another way that further solidifies what I already believe.

As to God "keeping us", certainly He does - but there is a point where He leaves us to our wickedness. That is the wrath of God, as per Romans 1... God respects our free will - even if it means we separate ourselves from Him. Paul is certain that as long as we remain in Christ, nothing can separate us from Him. God gives us grace, but in the end, WE will be judged. God will not be judged for not "gracing" us enough to force us into heaven.

Think about that. We will not be able to say to God "God, why didn't you give me more grace and force me to be saved?" That is a total misunderstanding of what we are being called to do - to partake in the Divine Nature, to enter into the Love of the Trinity, a self-giving Love. That is not possible with an attitude that revolves around "me". At some point, we HAVE to give of ourselves - and God gives the means. But He doesn't force us to give. That is NOT love!

Regards and Merry Christmas

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Francis. I'm glad we finally touched base.

Ok, glad to hear that. Welcome aboard! I imagine you will agree with me that there is some sort of cooperation between us and God. Without God, I am nothing. With God, I can do all. ME! But I cannot take the credit alone, because it is impossible for men to be saved without God. Jesus clearly says that in His after-action commentary when the Rich Young Man left. And along with that, we are told to persevere and obey the commandments. Thus, there is some element of cooperation that God expects - although even that is from God (as Phil 2:12-13 stresses).

Absolutely that is the cooperation I stress. God gives us the grace but we utilize it, but guess who gets the credit? God, because he supplied us with what we needed. That's why Paul did all things to the glory of God.

However, I would like to know how you can be sure that you will believe in the future?

You know I guess you do have somewhat of a point there because I'm not exactly prescient or anything, but I do have confidence in Christ Jesus that He will keep me. It is one of the promises for those who follow him so if God says he'll do it, he'll do it. It's just my part to believe and trust in him (which I obviously and enthusiastically do). And since I've been so much changed by Jesus I cannot imagine a scenario in which I would deny God and turn away from him. I have dedicated my life to God, I am resolved to not turn away. And Paul was the same way. So as far as I can see and with the level of my trust in God now I cannot forsee me ever falling away. I'm actually advancing in my understanding and relationship with God, and it is getting sweeter and sweeter. I don't think I'd ever be insane enough to walk away. I don't think I could do it either. God's reproof on top of a watered down relationship with Him would have me running back hard, for me personally anyways. It would drive me crazy. I think God did a fine job in creating us, and not to mention regenerating those of us who believe in him, because he built us with an inbuild desire and need of Himself. And he's doing a mighty fine job of keeping me in Him by that desire. Maybe that's what God was refering to when he said in Jeremiah that He would place his fear in our hears. That type of fear means reverence for Him and God has certainly given me that obedient reverence for Himself.

As to God "keeping us", certainly He does - but there is a point where He leaves us to our wickedness. That is the wrath of God, as per Romans 1... God respects our free will - even if it means we separate ourselves from Him. Paul is certain that as long as we remain in Christ, nothing can separate us from Him. God gives us grace, but in the end, WE will be judged. God will not be judged for not "gracing" us enough to force us into heaven.

Ok I understand your arguement but did you read that general post that I made that tried summing up all our current issues and where I quoted that commentary? That's where I would like to move on from here now that we understand each other's postions a little better now. Remember I admitted that I may be wrong (but I'd like to be corrected with Biblical doctrine if you think I am) and I just wanted people to look at that commentary, not my words, the commentary's - so don't crucify the messenger. We'll talk about the docrine presented there so let's not jump to conclusions in that post. I just wanted to present that side temporarily until we can agree on a middle ground. I hope you can get around to considering that post.

God Bless and Merry Christmas,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

God gives us the grace but we utilize it, but guess who gets the credit? God, because he supplied us with what we needed. That's why Paul did all things to the glory of God.

Yes, God gets the credit - and we are rewarded for our response and utilization of His gifts.

Ok I understand your arguement but did you read that general post that I made that tried summing up all our current issues and where I quoted that commentary? That's where I would like to move on from here now that we understand each other's postions a little better now. Remember I admitted that I may be wrong (but I'd like to be corrected with Biblical doctrine if you think I am) and I just wanted people to look at that commentary, not my words, the commentary's - so don't crucify the messenger. We'll talk about the docrine presented there so let's not jump to conclusions in that post. I just wanted to present that side temporarily until we can agree on a middle ground. I hope you can get around to considering that post.

Heavens forbid! No, I do not intend on "crucifying the messenger"! We are brothers, followers of Christ. A third person would admit that we disagree on some portions of the discussion - and one is wrong (or he may say we BOTH are wrong!). But this certainly doesn't mean we are to love each other less.

I am not sure what "commentary" you are speaking of, so I humbly await your move. Feel free to cut and paste what you desire, and I will attempt to respond to it, posting my thoughts on them using Scriptures when necessary. I appreciate your hearing my point of view.

Merry Christmas

Joe

 

[unred typo]

Joe, Josh, excellent discussion. I am still too weak to sit up for very long, having been sick as a dog with the current flu that has been circulating out area and not eating for the last couple of days, but a brief perusal of the thread shows me that my 2 cents wasn‘t needed here. Keep up the good work. Merry Christmas to all. Zzzzzzonk.

p.s. Joe... click 'view more emoticons' when posting and get a Santa of your own :wink: :x-mas:

 

[cyberjosh]

Heavens forbid! No, I do not intend on "crucifying the messenger"! We are brothers, followers of Christ. A third person would admit that we disagree on some portions of the discussion - and one is wrong (or he may say we BOTH are wrong!). But this certainly doesn't mean we are to love each other less.

I am not sure what "commentary" you are speaking of, so I humbly await your move. Feel free to cut and paste what you desire, and I will attempt to respond to it, posting my thoughts on them using Scriptures when necessary. I appreciate your hearing my point of view.

I didn't think any of the love of Christ had been lost between us, just trying to be clear on where I stand.

Oh, and the post I was refering to was this one:

Ok, here is my general presentation to all of you for us to discuss:

Currently we are debating on whether one can lose one's salvation or not. We all agree those those who will be saved in the end are those who persevere. The issue is how to view the present. I see a reconciliation of the exhortations not to fall away and the promises to those who peresevere via a paradox which I will explain shortly. I may be wrong, that's why I am presenting that here so that you can present me with doctrine to consider.

I emphasise that the belief which the Bible tells us to have must be a constant state of mind and not something that suddenly sprouts up and withers (like the seed on stony ground - a hard heart that tried to accept God's word but fell away). James calls this false faith, or demonic faith (in which even the demons believe), but he calls true faith that which bears fruit. As I see it, the condition of salvation is that we have the true belief (constant, active) that bears fruit. Thus, though I see an aspect of persevering to the end to obtain salvation, I also see a few verses that tell us that we have already obtained it through grace, in which God presently forgives us of our sins. We are told what we are in Christ Jesus, and that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The liberty we have therein does not give us an excuse for the flesh, but rather obligates us to follow the Law of Christ. In so doing we will, or must in order to obey it, sanctify ourselves. The issue: Does God's seal and present salvation propmt us to stay away from sin? Can God's gifts which are irrevocable be torn away from the Child of God.

I will play Devil's Advocate presently (I know some will not like the arguement - but will present it none the less, so don't yell at me it the commentary is wrong ;)), and will quote my commentary which tries to tie alot of things together about the past and present aspects of salvation. It is commentary on Matthew 24:13 and hopefully will answer Fancis's question that said, "That is why we are over and over told to PERSEVERE. Why would anyone tell a Christian who is supposedly led by puppet strings to obey God to persevere? This implies rather strongly that we do NOT have to persevere...."

Judge for yourself the truthfulness of the commentary (I might underline a part or two for emphasis of where I would like to focus):

endures to the end...be saved. Cf. 10:22. The one's who peresevere are the same one's who are saved - not the ones whose love Grows cold (previous verse, v. 12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers "are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation" (1 Peter 1:5). The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Covenant promise. God says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me" (Jeremiah 32:40). Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truely believers to begin with (1 John 2:19). To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive in the process, however. He keeps us "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5) - our faith. Scripture sometimes calls us to hold fast to our faith (Hebrews 10:23; Revelation 3:11) or warns us against falling away (Hebrews 10:26-29). Such admonitions do not negate the many promises that true believers will persevere (John 10:28, 29; Romans 8:38, 39; 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9; Phil 1:6). Rather, the warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the faith. Noctice that the warnings and the promises often occur side by side. For example, when Jude urges believers, "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21) he immediately points them to God, "who is able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24).

Consider the points and then feel free to discuss this with me. I figured this would be the best way just to get all the cards on the table so we can start narrowing down our doctine.

God Bless,

~Josh

I'm sure you'll see the original on the last page. The commentary part is in italics, but I would like for the entire post to be regarded.

Merry Christmas! (If only I had that Santa hat emoticon now.... )

 

[MarkT]

If, speaking as one of the elect, we can say God will not lose any, we are also fully aware that during the tribulation, there will arise false prophets and they will show great signs and wonders. Scientists are showing us great signs and wonders. Just a thought. We also know that these signs and wonders will be done so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. If possible. Well, we know God will shorten these days. However we are fully aware that no human being would be saved if those days had not been shortened. So we know that they will be shortened from the beginning. This is said for our uplifting. This is God's promise. It's not that we're so strong though we are strong but I don't want to boast of my strength because it comes from God and it is not my own. Still Jesus said no human being would be saved. That's should tell you that we are being saved. But speaking as one who is elect to my brethren, I would not have you boasting.

Even this question - What are you saved from? What have you heard? "Behold, the name of the LORD comes from afar, burning with his anger ... his tongue is like a devouring fire" Isaiah 30:27

When Christ returns, he will kindle the wood with fire; the wood that is in your heart. Wood refers to anything that is false that you believe. False words. Words that are not of God. What's your protection? Water! Do you not know you must be born again of water and the Spirit?

This necessarily means you acknowledge you are strangers and exiles on earth. You are not your body of flesh and blood but you are a tenant in a temporary house of flesh and blood. Man is a tenant in the vineyard.

The question should be, do you have life? If you have life, then you have the assurance of the Holy Spirit. Your soul has a new garment; born of water/the teachings of Jesus Christ. It will survive the coming fire. The soul is associated with the mind and the spirit with the heart. The word of the LORD divides soul and spirit so that even should your spirit return to God, your soul will live. Thoughts come from the heart to the mind. How do you keep your salvation? By storing up the words of God in your heart. Then the Holy Spirit brings them to mind. The words are water! They give your soul life and growth. Jesus's blood was water and blood. Don't forget. His words can not be destroyed. Awake O soul! Let wisdom come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul. Know that wisdom is such to your soul; if you find it, there will be a future, and your hope will not be cut off. Proverbs 24:14

You are known by your words. He knows what's in your heart.

 

[francisdesales]

The one's who peresevere are the same one's who are saved - not the ones whose love Grows cold (previous verse, v. 12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance.

I think this question, whether our salvation can be lost, is a strange one to my ears. The reason is because I do not know what my future status will be in the end. My mindset is that I was saved in the past - I was healed, made a new creation, etc. But none of that guarantees that I will continue to grow in Christ. The Scripture presumes that one WOULD CONTINUE to remain in Christ, something that presumes a positive response to God's grace. God doesn't force anyone to grow in holiness.

Paul says "all was as dung" when refering to his past life. To him, it was realizing that he thought you had a full life in the Law, but only a "thimble-size" portion was full, while now in Christ, he had a "gallon-size" portion. With this realization, Paul asks hypothetically - presuming no one would respond in the negative - "Isn't our life in Christ better? Thus, we continue in Christ". Paul, based on his own experience in Christ, doesn't see how a person would WANT to return to their former lives. However, Paul realizes later that people DO INDEED return. Peter also realizes that people return to the "vomit" of their past lives. Thus, the presumption is that all who are saved, healed, will remain in Christ, but practically speaking, this is not true. Thus, Scriptures relate the fact that man continues to be able to reject the Holy Spirit even after first receiving it.

Another reason why I wonder about "OSAS" is that it contradicts WHO God is and what He desires to do regarding mankind. One of the primary teachings of Christianity is that God desires to share of Himself with us. LOVE, the definition of it, is a sharing of self. The Blessed Trinity IS Love itself. The Father shares Himself entirely with the Son and vice versus. This Love is called the Holy Spirit. Knowing this about God, how can we then believe that God will not continue this towards us as well? God desires us to share of OURSELVES with Him. How can we enter into communion with God eternally if we do not want to share of ourselves??? This sharing will be done in God's NOW, in eternity. Thus, if we die in a state of disunity with God, with NOT desiring to share of ourselves, where will we fit into this eternal self-sharing with God? God does not force us to share of ourselves. He guides us, graces us to do it, but in the end, WE will be judged on our response to God. God will not be judged because He didn't force us to obey His commandments!!!

With all of this in mind, OSAS is inconceivable to the Scriptures and what we have learned about who God is and what He wants to do with mankind. All the Scriptures that discuss God not letting the elect to falter is merely a way of showing us that it is God who guides those who do positively respond. It is as if we are in the future looking at our past life. We will realize that God indeed was the reason for our salvation throughout our lives. But today, we don't know we are now in the Book of Life.

God died for ALL men and desires ALL men to be saved. Thus, we must believe that God ALSO graces all men to be saved. The bottom line is that all men are not saved. Those that are saved are saved as a result of a positive response to God's gifts. We cannot claim we saved ourselves because the gifts are FROM God, not ourselves. But our response, just the same, is part of the requirements on being saved. And this salvation is an ongoing effort, a continuous acceptance of God's gifts, as nothing else matters but faith working in love.

Regards

 

[golfjack]

reply

Fran. Did Jesus die for our future sins? The Word says we are forgiven, right? Therefore, every sin that will ever be forgiven, has to be a future sin. If we do sin after we have been saved, it is a past sin. Therefore, we are forgiven of our past, present, and future sins. You see, our salvation was completed at the cross.



May God bless, Golfjack