Giving up

[francisdesales]

That artificial sugar junk is just going to ruin their appetite for real food. Who wants the true gospel when Satan has such a cheap counterfeit? Just the common people, the ones who know that you don’t get something for nothing and don’t interpret “take up your cross and follow me†as an invitation to a ‘Christian’ home jewelry party. :roll:

That's a good point I hadn't considered today. Who wants to go through the hard work necessary, the sacrifice, the doing without, the turning the other cheek, the loving of others we don't particularly care for - when we can take the easy route (the wide road?) and proclaim OURSELVES already saved. WHY sacrifice ANYTHING? Yep, the devil would love to hear that...

Seems like they should pass out Pina Colada's or something along with that "gospel"... Get you in the "right" mind set.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

I think this question, whether our salvation can be lost, is a strange one to my ears. The reason is because I do not know what my future status will be in the end. My mindset is that I was saved in the past - I was healed, made a new creation, etc. But none of that guarantees that I will continue to grow in Christ. The Scripture presumes that one WOULD CONTINUE to remain in Christ, something that presumes a positive response to God's grace. God doesn't force anyone to grow in holiness.

Well first off, "growing in Christ" and "remaining in Christ" are two different things. Christians can (unfortunately) stop growing (though I would think for only a season), yet still will be saved, but will have their works burned (yet as through fire - 1 Corinthians 3:15). Second what to you regard the purpose of God's giving us justification and Christ's imputed righteousness to us presently being?

Paul says "all was as dung" when refering to his past life. To him, it was realizing that he thought you had a full life in the Law, but only a "thimble-size" portion was full, while now in Christ, he had a "gallon-size" portion. With this realization, Paul asks hypothetically - presuming no one would respond in the negative - "Isn't our life in Christ better? Thus, we continue in Christ". Paul, based on his own experience in Christ, doesn't see how a person would WANT to return to their former lives. However, Paul realizes later that people DO INDEED return. Peter also realizes that people return to the "vomit" of their past lives. Thus, the presumption is that all who are saved, healed, will remain in Christ, but practically speaking, this is not true. Thus, Scriptures relate the fact that man continues to be able to reject the Holy Spirit even after first receiving it.

That passage in Peter is disputed, but I have heard from both a Pastor and several comentaries that the fact that a swine is cleaned up and looks nice still doesn't change the fact that it is still a pig (wasn't given a new nature - as we are, because we are given a new man). So the reason it goes back is because it never really changed.

I believe if I persevere, I will be saved. Can I know I will persevere? Can anyone? You are kidding yourself if you think you cannot fall.

"Cannot" and "will not" are two different things. I do not hold lightly the depravity of man (we most certainly have the potential and inclination to fall), and I cannot also claim with 100% cetainty that those who are saved will not fall (yet, anyways - that's what we are debating), but I see this as something to look at on God's end, not ours. If God gives us a promise that he will keep us through to the end then I can have surety in that rather than in just my own actions. Though I constantly all the while am trying to conform (or rather tranform) myself into Christ's image.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. Hosea 4:6

Thus saith the whole congregation of the LORD, What trespass [is] this that ye have committed against the God of Israel, to turn away this day from following the LORD, in that ye have builded you an altar, that ye might rebel this day against the LORD? Joshua 22:16

God forbid that we should rebel against the LORD, and turn this day from following the LORD, to build an altar for burnt offerings, for meat offerings, or for sacrifices, beside the altar of the LORD our God that [is] before his tabernacle. Joshua 22:29

Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Acts 13:46

That doesn't mean we will follow God throughout our whole lives. The Jews were also "of God", but many fell to their ruin.

You have to realize that traditionaly Israel as a nation was not promised salvation, only those who obeyed God (that's also why the Gentiles can be regarded as "spiritual Israel" - and we also are under a new and different covenant). Though, since God had made a covenant with them (which they could break) they were called as a people/nation by His name whether they followed him or not. Also before the Sinai covenant was fully established we see God's anger burn through a command to Moses: "Go, get down; for your people, which thou brought out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves" (Exodus 32:7). On one note it is almost funny to see that God has a sense of humor in that, "All along they were my people, but now they're your people!" but on another note this is a sobering reminder that only those who do God's will are truely His.

I believe that IF I persevere until the end, I will enter Heaven. I have been saved from my sins - and as long as I repent from my recent sins or future sins, I will, in the end, be saved for heaven.

I completely agree.

We do not know we are of the elect until we look back upon our life from heaven and see how we accepted God into our lives.

No offense but if we couldn't know of our salvation and election then the Bible would never have told us that we could. But it does: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10). We can make our election sure. And the Bible is also clear that the good works which we do to the glory of God were predestined in Christ Jesus.

I think there has to be a utilization of this knowledge, because knowledge by itself puffs up... If it doesn't lead to love of neighbor, it isn't useful knowledge.

But if someone repeatedly displays no love for their neighbor then they are obviously not in the light and have not been saved (as says pretty much the whole book of 1 John).

That's a good point I hadn't considered today. Who wants to go through the hard work necessary, the sacrifice, the doing without, the turning the other cheek, the loving of others we don't particularly care for - when we can take the easy route (the wide road?) and proclaim OURSELVES already saved. WHY sacrifice ANYTHING? Yep, the devil would love to hear that...

Actually, ever since I have been reborn (which I equate with salvation - though its completion is yet to be fulfilled in full) I have walked more and more in God’s Spirit and by his word and I’m at a point now where I can rejoice and count it all joy to endure trials and shame like the Apostles who rejoiced to be counted worthy to suffer shame for his name (Acts 5:41). That is one way in which I actually triumph over sin, and is clearly from God alone, for only the Spirit of God could cause a man to rejoice in his sufferings (which incidentally is a great witnessing tool also) thus even the trials will not deter such a Christian, but rather make them run to God even harder for provision as the Apostles did. This is one of the many ways God keeps his people despite what man would normaly do under the circumstances.

P.S. Keep in mind I'm still reasoning with you here and not making any absolute stance. However I see alot of sense in the position I am arguing now, and would like to pursue it to its logical conclusion. And if you don't mind, so we don't beat around the bush over several posts in vain, it would greatly help if you could present a point-by-point response to each point in that italicized commentary which I posted. I saw your comment on the first two lines but the rest also have valid points which need to be considered. I would appreciate it if you could get around to doing that also. Thanks.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

We, like the prodigal son, can reject our father and walk away. Did the father command the son to return home? No.

The father didn't force the son to see the light, no, but perhaps seeing the father opened the son's eyes. At any rate, by the grace of God, we have seen the light and we have returned. Are we going to turn away again? No.

The promise was made to Abraham and his offspring but they followed after false gods and they lost their inheritance. Now we have returned, the children of the promise, having been made descendants of Abraham by faith. We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, the sons of God. 'For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God' Romans 8:14

Did the Spirit of God lead you to say 'we can reject our father and walk away'? Heaven forbid francis! Though all may fall away, you will not. I say that to strengthen your faith.

 

[MarkT]

Yup, Oscar is still running around with his candy bag, passing out lollipops, I see. Babies need the milk of the word, children need the bread of life, and adults need some meat. That artificial sugar junk is just going to ruin their appetite for real food. Who wants the true gospel when Satan has such a cheap counterfeit? Just the common people, the ones who know that you don’t get something for nothing and don’t interpret “take up your cross and follow me†as an invitation to a ‘Christian’ home jewelry party.

Nice words but where's your faith? I don't see any.

We are servants and slaves; the poor, the tired and the meek. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.'

In Christ, we are subject to our Father's will. Like Jesus, we can do nothing on our own. In the body, it is our desire to do God's will. We plan our way. In the spirit, we can see the LORD directing our steps; leading us out of temptation, delivering us from evil. As the Scriptures say, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Pr. 16:9

From Jesus we learned that our Father never did lose his love for us. He has always loved us even before we came into this world. Even after we came into the world and lost our way and went after false idols and did everything wrong, he did not lose his love for us.

In the light of Christ, we can do nothing without faith in him. To build your faith, you need understanding. Understanding is your shield against the arguments of this world. In Christ, we destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. 2 Cor. 10:5

 

[francisdesales]

First, I will make a few quick comments on your "commentary" post made awhile ago.

1. What is salvation? What are we defining as "it can be lost"? There still seems to be a bit of confusion over exactly what you are talking about when you say we cannot generally lose it except in rare cases. This will be evident later in one of your sentences.

2. Our perseverance does NOT secure our salvation into heaven! Look at it with this analogy, which is Scriptural...

I am the son of my father. I didn't have to do anything to make that happen. My parents did everything. Along with being born, I also receive love from my father. He doesn't love me because I take out the trash or clean up my room, but because I am his son. Thus, his love is not purchased, but freely given. Now, if I am a terrible son and continuously choose to disobey my father, I can be disowned. While still being a son technically, legally, I lose my inheritance. What I have received from my father is NOT a result of my own goodness or obedience, but my FATHER'S goodness and love. I would "earn" my disinheritance, however, with continuous disobedience.

The same thing happens in the relationship between God and myself. I am now a son of God by adoption through the waters of regeneration. I did nothing to deserve it. With that sonship, I have gained an inheritance that I will receive without having to earn it! I have an inheritance in heaven as a result of God's Goodness and Righteousness, not my own obedience. HOWEVER, I can LOSE my inheritance by continued disobedience to the Father. As a result, along with Paul in such places as Gal 5, 1 Cor 6, 1 Cor 10, Heb 3-4, Heb 10, (and Peter, as well), I can EARN the LOSE of my inheritance awaiting me in heaven.

I cannot gain salvation, but I can throw it away!

Now, with that said, I will proceed to your most recent post...

Well first off, "growing in Christ" and "remaining in Christ" are two different things. Christians can (unfortunately) stop growing (though I would think for only a season), yet still will be saved, but will have their works burned (yet as through fire - 1 Corinthians 3:15). Second what to you regard the purpose of God's giving us justification and Christ's imputed righteousness to us presently being?

OK, I understand your first comment. If one is NOT growing in Christ, they are moving away from Christ. However, they may still be abiding in Him. On your second comment, I do not believe that justification is a one-time event, nor do I believe we are ONLY given Christ's imputed righteousness. I believe God MAKES us righteous, in Christ. Thus, it is I who do something - BUT while abiding in Christ. Thus, it is a "WE" operation when I do a good deed. Certainly, I cannot claim credit BY MYSELF, because I am a new person with Someone aiding my will to do good (Phil 2:12-13). However, it is STILL now MY righteousness...

"For I tell you, that unless your righteousness abound more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Mat 5:20

The source of my righteousness is Christ, but it is MINE, as well. On this righteousness will we be judged at the end. Do you think GOD will be judged? NO! But rather, on OUR righteousness or lack thereof, which depends first on Christ’s gift and second on our utilization of those gifts.

That passage in Peter is disputed, but I have heard from both a Pastor and several comentaries that the fact that a swine is cleaned up and looks nice still doesn't change the fact that it is still a pig (wasn't given a new nature - as we are, because we are given a new man). So the reason it goes back is because it never really changed.

That is a serious twisting of the Scriptures. The comment about the sow is NOT to mention its "status" or its cleanliness. It is an idiom, a euphemism. It is not meant to be taken entirely literally. The point is that just as pigs return to the mud, so SOME Christians return to the dirt of sin. It is not meant to describe the person’s inner self! Note that Peter ALSO discusses dog's vomit! I hope you do not intend on giving me a commentary on how vomit was something else before it changed! The point is that men DO return to sin – and some do not look back to God... What would be the point of Paul's frustration in Romans 7 if God unerringly forced people to remain OUT of sin? John in 1 John 1 tells us that even Christians sin - some committing DEADLY sins. No, the Scriptures clearly tell us that justification is not necessarily final - until we go before the Judgment Seat of God.

"Cannot" and "will not" are two different things. I do not hold lightly the depravity of man (we most certainly have the potential and inclination to fall), and I cannot also claim with 100% cetainty that those who are saved will not fall (yet, anyways - that's what we are debating), but I see this as something to look at on God's end, not ours. If God gives us a promise that he will keep us through to the end then I can have surety in that rather than in just my own actions. Though I constantly all the while am trying to conform (or rather tranform) myself into Christ's image.

Then from your keyboard, you destroy "OSAS". If there is ANY possibility of falling away from Christ, then a person is NOT "OSAS". It is NOT an absolute promise - if even ONE person has EVER fallen away from Christ! God promises are for those who remain in Him, who obey the Commandments, who Love. If He is our King, we will act the part. If we refuse to receive our inheritance, it will be taken away. And yes, I agree that salvation, in the end, is from GOD'S point of view. Thus, this "assurance" of salvation to heaven tries to usurp the decisions that God will make (or has made).

You have to realize that traditionaly Israel as a nation was not promised salvation, only those who obeyed God (that's also why the Gentiles can be regarded as "spiritual Israel" - and we also are under a new and different covenant).

No brother. The ENTIRE NATION of Israel was God's people and was saved from the slavery of Egypt. ALL of them came through the water of the Reed Sea - which Peter compares to the waters of Baptism. And yet, as Paul says in 1 Cor 10, NOT ALL were saved in the end - thus, the comment at 1 Cor 10:12 for those presumptuous enough to say THEY are already saved for heaven. Now, in the end, not every member of the Church will be saved (whether we are speaking the old Dispensation or the new). You correctly point out that only the "spiritual Israel" will be saved in the end (Rom 2). But salvation was OFFERED FREELY to ALL Israel. They were promised this salvation over and over - IF, IF they obeyed the Covenant...

No offense but if we couldn't know of our salvation and election then the Bible would never have told us that we could. But it does: "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Peter 1:10).

Oh, yea, I agree with your verse... Note the words "for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall". See, salvation is conditional...

And when if you do NOT do those things listed in 2 Peter 1???

But if someone repeatedly displays no love for their neighbor then they are obviously not in the light and have not been saved (as says pretty much the whole book of 1 John).

Ah, now you are changing the definition of "saved" from a past event to a future event, trying to make the two definitions interchangeable. THAT is why I asked you to define "being saved" in the beginning. YOU are completely putting your "past" salvation at risk by saying such things!!!

I have said this before - IF you say you were "never saved to begin with" to a Christian because they NOW walk in the dark, that means that salvation is based upon the today. Your past salvation, thus, is NEVER secure! Thus, OSAS is a false gospel. You can't have it both ways. IF even ONE person "was never saved to begin with", you defeat OSAS, because THAT person THOUGHT they were saved ten years ago. NOW, you say they are NOT!

P.S. Keep in mind I'm still reasoning with you here and not making any absolute stance. However I see a lot of sense in the position I am arguing now, and would like to pursue it to its logical conclusion.

Fair enough.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The father didn't force the son to see the light, no, but perhaps seeing the father opened the son's eyes. At any rate, by the grace of God, we have seen the light and we have returned. Are we going to turn away again? No.

The son decided to return home before seeing the father. He knew that he had wronged the father and would beg for forgiveness, ACCEPTING THAT HE WAS NO LONGER WORTHY TO BE CALLED SON!

However, once the father had seen the son's repentence, he was more than willing to offer his love and the son retained his status as son. It was the son who threw it away - the father didn't take the son's inheritance away or his status as son.

The promise was made to Abraham and his offspring but they followed after false gods and they lost their inheritance. Now we have returned, the children of the promise, having been made descendants of Abraham by faith. We are heirs of God, fellow heirs with Christ, the sons of God. 'For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God' Romans 8:14

Those offspring who followed after false gods were sons of Abraham only by the flesh. Paul in Romans 2 says it is the one who circumcises their heart, not their flesh, that makes on a "JEW" - an offspring of Abraham by faith.

Did the Spirit of God lead you to say 'we can reject our father and walk away'? Heaven forbid francis! Though all may fall away, you will not. I say that to strengthen your faith.

Apparently, human experience shows this as a truth - on a daily basis. People who were God's children turn from Him and sin. Not only do some of them sin, but they do it without repenting of it. This, as 2 Peter 2 and Heb 10 says, is WORSE than BEFORE receiving the knowledge of God.

Personally, I do not believe I will fall away. I have committed myself to God and the graces He sends. I try to take God more seriously in my life. I humbly beg my King to continue to enable me to follow Him in the future and that I may continue to love Him through my love of others. I have faith that God will provide the gifts necessary for me to be in heaven with Him. And as I continue to grow in Him, I will experience Him in my life more and more. My experiential knowledge of Him grows more and more, and my love and trust in Him grows. I would say that as my walk continues, the chance of ME falling away are more slim. However, God forbid, I be tested like Job was. Who can say what I would do?

I have moral certitude that I will be saved - but not absolute certainty.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

First, I will make a few quick comments on your "commentary" post made awhile ago.

I read it, but I can't really comment on that till I get these other issues dealt with. Plus it would be tremendously more helpful if you would actually quote each part of the commentary and address it directly. And you seem confident enough and well versed in Scripture to do it. The commentary attempts to preemptively address some of your concerns, which you are now threshing out in full here. I hope you can look at it and present a direct counter arguement because it tried to address alot of these points ahead of time.

I do not believe that justification is a one-time event

I've never seen anything to the contrary. We have been cleansed of our past sins and we also presently have no condemnation (which points back to the cross which was accomplished once and for all). And where do you think we get the idea of positional sanctification from? I thought we already went over how the past aspect of salvation cannot be blown off lightly. You said that you didn't take it lightly and I thought that we agreed that it is difficult to run from God's grace and rod of correction. And not to mention that God's grace is perfected in our weaknesses, no matter how bad.

nor do I believe we are ONLY given Christ's imputed righteousness. I believe God MAKES us righteous, in Christ. Thus, it is I who do something - BUT while abiding in Christ. Thus, it is a "WE" operation when I do a good deed. Certainly, I cannot claim credit BY MYSELF, because I am a new person with Someone aiding my will to do good (Phil 2:12-13). However, it is STILL now MY righteousness...

Funny, my commentary also affirms this yet takes the opposite position. That's why I wanted you to address the post directly, quoting it. Because it mentioned that (from his understanding of the doctrine) that knowing that God secures us is not to say that we are passive in the process, and that God uses OUR faith to accomplish it, not a completely imputed faith or righteousness.

That is a serious twisting of the Scriptures. The comment about the sow is NOT to mention its "status" or its cleanliness. It is an idiom, a euphemism. It is not meant to be taken entirely literally. The point is that just as pigs return to the mud, so SOME Christians return to the dirt of sin. It is not meant to describe the person’s inner self! Note that Peter ALSO discusses dog's vomit! I hope you do not intend on giving me a commentary on how vomit was something else before it changed!

Wait a minute I think you misunderstood just a bit. You try to equate what I said as being parallel to the nature of the vomit, while if you truely paralled it it would be with the dog. In the pig's case the mud would be parallel to the vomit (but I didn't even mention the mud). Both the vomit and mud represent sin. Now you can judge the truthfulness of this for yourself (so like I said earlier - with a light heart - don't crucify the messenger). I can understand that this discussion might upset a person from time to time, happens to me to but lets keep it calm (not necessarily saying anything against you). Now here is another commentary on 2 Peter 3:22 - "In both cases the nature of the animal is not changed. The sow returns to the mud because it is still a sow. The change was merely cosmetic." Regardless of which way you interpret this I'm sure that you know that this is at least true of those who profess Christianity but are never really changed, whether or not you think that is what it is talking about here.

John in 1 John 1 tells us that even Christians sin - some committing DEADLY sins.

Actually it says a "sin unto death" like Saphira and Ananias, who died physically because of their sin. And it is stated plainly that sin in a Christian's life can cause physical sickness. And believe it or not, it can be an act of God's mercy. I heard a testimony once of a man who was sent to jail and once he was there he got saved. When he later told a preacher about his experience he told him, "Pastor, me being thrown into jail wasn't God's judgement on me, it was his mercy, because if I had kept on living the way I was living, I would have ended up in hell." In light of that, and other verses which make it clear that God's judgement can also be mercy at the same time, it is possible that God killing someone because of a sin could be mercy so that they don't continue to go down an even more dangerous road. Whether this interpretation is right or not I'm not 100% sure, but nonetheless it is talking about physical death there.

God promises are for those who remain in Him, who obey the Commandments, who Love. If He is our King, we will act the part. If we refuse to receive our inheritance, it will be taken away. And yes, I agree that salvation, in the end, is from GOD'S point of view. Thus, this "assurance" of salvation to heaven tries to usurp the decisions that God will make (or has made).

Um, well what you have been saying alot recently about how God can be sure of our election but that we cannot completely be sure might not be correct. For one, I showed you that verse in 2 Peter 1:10 that we can be sure of our election if we progress (I don't want to focus on the "if" right now - just that for atleast some people they really can know and be sure now.

Also to use your very word of "assurance" (or rather "assure") I can show you scripture to the contrary:
"My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things." (1 John 3:18-20)

What this is saying is that we can be assured that we are in the truth (in the light, in God) but even when we doubt (which you currently seem to be displaying - no offense) that God is greater than our doubts and really knows the status of our hearts. And can't you see that John wrote this verse for the purpose of encouragement? He is saying that we can assure our heart before God. And on one of the previous pages I posted a list of things which John says that you can know for sure.

As for some more commentary (I hope you know that I'm just trying to appeal to people who seem to know more about this than I - but judge for yourself), on these verses it says: "God knows those who are truely his (2 Timothy 2:19) and wants to assure His own of their salvation. Although Christians may have insecurities and doubts about salvation, God does not condemn them (Romans 8:1). Displaying love as a pattern of life is the proof that believers stand uncondemned before God."

No brother. The ENTIRE NATION of Israel was God's people and was saved from the slavery of Egypt. ALL of them came through the water of the Reed Sea - which Peter compares to the waters of Baptism. And yet, as Paul says in 1 Cor 10, NOT ALL were saved in the end - thus, the comment at 1 Cor 10:12 for those presumptuous enough to say THEY are already saved for heaven.

Their example cannot be 100% carried over to our present situation, though Paul gave it to us as an example, because such things were types. They did not have the Holy Spirit in them, we do. They were under the law, we aren't. They were physically saved and delivered from Egypt not spiritually redeemed, so it applies to us by way of analogy and not directly. The ramifications of the differences between the Old and New Covenants are too great for me to expound in detail. But remember that God said under the New Covenant he would place his Spirit in us and cause us to walk in his statutes.

Oh, yea, I agree with your verse... Note the words "for IF ye do these things, ye shall never fall". See, salvation is conditional...

Well for now regard what I said above about not looking at the "if" right now but acknowledging that those who do have surety of their election now, and election does not fluctuate. And for the record that word "fall" also means "stumble" and it is clear that a Christian can stumble and it merely means being tripped up by sin and not apostacy. Jesus is the rock of offense, the stumbling block. Jesus also said that is it impossible that offenses (the same Greek word for "stumbling block" except in verb form) not come. Stumbling is not equivalent to apostacy.

I have said this before - IF you say you were "never saved to begin with" to a Christian because they NOW walk in the dark, that means that salvation is based upon the today. Your past salvation, thus, is NEVER secure!

If that is true then we should never get baptised because baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body but a pledge of good conscience towards God! That is the "assurance" that I just wrote about and quoted from John above. And my position currently is that your present walk witnesses where you have been in the past: have you been to the cross and been changed by it or did you reject the cross?

As for your question about my definition of salvation, I hope that you realize what I have already demonstrated about the past, present, and future aspects of it (which I quoted verses for each), and the Bible is clear that we have escaped the corruption which is in the world and that those who are his remain holy (meaning set apart - a.k.a. seperated from the world). I use salvation to refer to the entire process but with definate emphasis on the surety of the past event. What we are currently looking into are the ramifications and the effects of the past event: will we continue or can someone who has had their very nature changed by God return to the flesh as if they were never changed?

P.S. Like I said I want to talk about this rationally and I'm trying to quote Scripture as often as possible. We are both believers and we are both in Christ, so let us reason like brothers, using the Scriptures for doctrine and reproof but in a spirit of love and gentleness. I really do want to reach an ultimatum with you and God's word.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

Apparently, human experience shows this as a truth - on a daily basis. People who were God's children turn from Him and sin. Not only do some of them sin, but they do it without repenting of it. This, as 2 Peter 2 and Heb 10 says, is WORSE than BEFORE receiving the knowledge of God.

Personally, I do not believe I will fall away. I have committed myself to God and the graces He sends. I try to take God more seriously in my life. I humbly beg my King to continue to enable me to follow Him in the future and that I may continue to love Him through my love of others. I have faith that God will provide the gifts necessary for me to be in heaven with Him. And as I continue to grow in Him, I will experience Him in my life more and more. My experiential knowledge of Him grows more and more, and my love and trust in Him grows. I would say that as my walk continues, the chance of ME falling away are more slim. However, God forbid, I be tested like Job was. Who can say what I would do?

I have moral certitude that I will be saved - but not absolute certainty.

I think if you put it objectively, for example, 'Many will fall away', then we would recognize your words. But when you include yourself in 'we' when you say, 'we can reject God', and then you expect 'us' to follow, ... it ain't gonna happen. We reject your voice. It shows a lack of understanding on your part.

 

[francisdesales]

I am not sure how you would like me to proceed, so I will just try to answer your questions of your most recent post.

I've never seen anything to the contrary {justification being a one-time process}.

Is a man justified in God's eyes when a previously justified man turns from God, sins, and doesn't repent?

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Ez 18:24


The difference on our points of view here is that you look at justification as merely a status. I see it as an inner state of being. We are just in God's eyes when we obey His commandments. We are not just in God's eyes when we disobey Him. God does not merely give us an external status - calling us something we are not (proven when we sin without repenting)

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2 Thess 1: 7-9

Would you say that included such men as the pervert in 1 Cor 5 if he didn't repent of his sin?

We have been cleansed of our past sins and we also presently have no condemnation (which points back to the cross which was accomplished once and for all). And where do you think we get the idea of positional sanctification from?

Positional sancitification? I am not familiar with that theological term. To me, sanctification, justification and salvation are roughly interchangeable terms, all refering to the past, present and future, depending upon the context. For example, Paul tells us in 2 Thess that we are BEING SAVED by sanctification...

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" 2 Thess 2:13.

I thought we already went over how the past aspect of salvation cannot be blown off lightly. You said that you didn't take it lightly and I thought that we agreed that it is difficult to run from God's grace and rod of correction. And not to mention that God's grace is perfected in our weaknesses, no matter how bad.

And you are correct. I am merely telling you that if ONE person falls away from Christ, then OSAS is a false gospel. I am certainly not saying I doubt my own salvation. As long as I persevere - and I humbly pray that God gives me the grace to continue in Him - I will be saved for heaven. Potentially, though, I COULD fall away. I do not know what sort of end God has in store for me, so HOW could I KNOW I WILL be of the elect of heaven? IF ONE person has fallen from Christ, the possibility exists that others could as well. Does that mean I doubt myself? No. It means that I do not believe in OSAS...

God secures us is not to say that we are passive in the process, and that God uses OUR faith to accomplish it, not a completely imputed faith or righteousness.

That sounds better. Sure, we are imputed righteousness, but we are also MADE righteous. Thus, as you say, God uses our own response of faith (which is also a gift) in the sanctification/justification/salvation process.

I'm sure that you know that this is at least true of those who profess Christianity but are never really changed, whether or not you think that is what it is talking about here.

Sure, that is why I quoted it. Lots of people will say "Lord, Lord" and Christ will say "I never knew you"... And they will say "But we ate with you and did great works in your name" (to a Catholic, this means "I went to Mass"). And Jesus will then say "BEGONE". The definition of a Christian, generally speaking, is one who proclaims Jesus as their Lord and Savior. Now, whether that actually means something to them, whether their lives change or not, that is another story. And thus, perhaps some people give Christianity a go, and actually DO believe in Christ. But our experience notes that there are people who DO fall away. Even Pastors and Priests... Are we to judge whether they "REALLY knew Christ"? No. In 2 parables in Matthew 13, we are told that GOD will separate the wheat from the chaff, or the good fish from the bad. Not me. Not you. After speaking with such fallen away men, I have learned that at one time, they really believed. However, faith is not a one-time proclamation. Thus, OSAS is false. Faith is our belief in action. And thus, some CHRISTIANS return to their lives of sin... Are they saved for heaven? Jesus tells us they are not in Matthew 7.

Actually it says a "sin unto death" like Saphira and Ananias, who died physically because of their sin. And it is stated plainly that sin in a Christian's life can cause physical sickness.

Physical death is meaningless to a Christian, because it merely leads to eternal life to those who God has called. Deadly sin does not refer to physical death, but spiritual death. Read the context. It is not talking about physical death, but spiritual. The entire chapter is about whether we are in God or not.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin [which is] not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." 1 John 5:16-17

Read the bolded part. Are you now saying that John needs to tell us that there is sin that does not lead to physical death???

And what about this?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:28-33

We are to fear spiritual death, which is what John is addressing.

I showed you that verse in 2 Peter 1:10 that we can be sure of our election if we progress (I don't want to focus on the "if" right now - just that for atleast some people they really can know and be sure now.

Again, what does that assurance of the now have to do with ten years from now? I am familiar with enough people who, five years ago, were obedient to God, prayed, etc, then fell away later on. Sure, their salvation was assured "NOW". But not later. That is why we are told to persevere in obedience to God's Commandments. 1 John, if I could summarize it quickly, says we can be sure of salvation WHILE we are obeying God's commandments. That is how we know He is within us. But it doesn't follow that I only have to obey the commandments today and not tommorrow and still be saved for heaven.

Their example {Jews crossing the Reed Sea] cannot be 100% carried over to our present situation, though Paul gave it to us as an example, because such things were types.

It is not meant to carry over 100%! It is a type. "Just as they, so us". But not COMPLETELY. However, it is crystal clear that the interpreters of Scriptures, whether Jewish or Christian, saw the Exodus as an escape from sin and the slavery of it. Christians (as Peter details) recognized the type. And Paul, using this example, clearly tells us that MERELY SAYING we are saved is a prescription for presumption. As to the Holy Spirit not being presaent, etc, perhaps you should look at 1 Cor 10 again. WHO is the rock that follows them?

I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10:1-5

Clearly, all were offered the same spiritual gifts. Paul makes a subtle comparision between the Eucharist and Baptism of Christians with the Jews own spiritual journey. Receiving these graces do NOT mean Christians will be saved for heaven. Clearly, Paul is talking about a Christian's spiritual life was in jeopardy if they rejected God's offer.

If that is true then we should never get baptised because baptism is not the washing of dirt from the body but a pledge of good conscience towards God! That is the "assurance" that I just wrote about and quoted from John above. And my position currently is that your present walk witnesses where you have been in the past: have you been to the cross and been changed by it or did you reject the cross?

Baptism is more than a pledge. It is where become adopted sons of God, a new creation. Baptism is the waters of regeneration, where we die with Christ and a new man is born. It is the first step, a very important one, in our journey towards God. I agree that our present walk witnesses to the past to a degree. But they are not necessarily totally parallel. I can obey God yesterday and disobey Him today. What does yesterday have to do with today's disobedience? Does this mean I really didn't obey God yesterday? That my "true" heart was not in line with God yesterday? That I was faking obedience then? This is why OSAS utterly fails. And this is from logic, not Scripture. The Bible tells us that even Christians can sin. The Bible tells us that even Christians can turn from the faith, returning to the vomit of their former lives. Does this nullify everything they did in the past?

WHO was responsible for their previously-done good deeds???

That is the problem you face with OSAS. At one point, these people WERE Christians, doing good deeds as a result of God's GRACE and that ALONE! God thus abided in them at ONE POINT! Jesus tells us that we can do NOTHING good without Him. Thus, a Christian who does good and has good motives 10 years ago HAD Christ within himself. But know that this does not guarantee that He will remain there IF I choose later to turn away.

As for your question about my definition of salvation, I hope that you realize what I have already demonstrated about the past, present, and future aspects of it (which I quoted verses for each), and the Bible is clear that we have escaped the corruption which is in the world and that those who are his remain holy (meaning set apart - a.k.a. seperated from the world). I use salvation to refer to the entire process but with definate emphasis on the surety of the past event. What we are currently looking into are the ramifications and the effects of the past event

I am not denying the past event. I am merely saying that the past event does NOT guarantee the future event. If in the future, a person falls away, that, in OSAS, means that the past event never occurred! So much for assurance...

A person of OSAS persuasion, then, does not have assurance of anything, even the past event. I have absolute assurance of the past event and that my sanctification/justification/salvation journey continues.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I think if you put it objectively, for example, 'Many will fall away', then we would recognize your words. But when you include yourself in 'we' when you say, 'we can reject God', and then you expect 'us' to follow, ... it ain't gonna happen. We reject your voice. It shows a lack of understanding on your part.

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:12

I am only following Scriptures. One should not be presumptuous.

Regards

 

[unred typo]

Nice words but where's your faith? I don't see any.
We are servants and slaves; the poor, the tired and the meek. "Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.'
In Christ, we are subject to our Father's will. Like Jesus, we can do nothing on our own. In the body, it is our desire to do God's will. We plan our way. In the spirit, we can see the LORD directing our steps; leading us out of temptation, delivering us from evil. As the Scriptures say, 'A man's mind plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. Pr. 16:9

Faith is taking God at his word and believing him when he says that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Faith is believing that all things he asks us to do are possible with God as our helper. Jesus was speaking of supernatural miracles that only God can perform or allow a human to do. We can do good deeds, we can love our enemies, we can obey God’s commands. You sound like the child who sits in the middle of the mess of his room and when told to clean it, cries ,â€ÂI caaaaan’t.â€Â

From Jesus we learned that our Father never did lose his love for us. He has always loved us even before we came into this world. Even after we came into the world and lost our way and went after false idols and did everything wrong, he did not lose his love for us.

Excuse me, but I have never worshipped an idol, or bowed down to a hand fashioned god and proclaimed it as the all powerful one who created me. Maybe you have a tiki god in your living room, but I don’t. Anyway, God loves all mankind, and desires that all people everywhere would turn from their wickedness and obey his commands to love one another. He will reward those who diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

In the light of Christ, we can do nothing without faith in him. To build your faith, you need understanding. Understanding is your shield against the arguments of this world. In Christ, we destroy arguments and every proud obstacle to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. 2 Cor. 10:5

Good, Mark. Let’s start preaching that. Let’s turn off those proud arguments that tell us we cannot obey Christ and instead do what he commands us to do and stop oppressing, slandering, lying to, or cheating our neighbor and committing adultery with his wife and aborting the unwanted results. Let’s treat others as we would want to be treated. Let’s help those who need a hand to get back on their feet, whether physically or mentally. Let’s not spread hate and discontent among our fellow workers and families and church or club members. Let’s obey Christ.

:-D

 

[MarkT]

The son decided to return home before seeing the father. He knew that he had wronged the father and would beg for forgiveness, ACCEPTING THAT HE WAS NO LONGER WORTHY TO BE CALLED SON!

Jesus tells us we have a Father. The Father has to open your eyes first. You are his son!

The question is, was the son forced back? Yes, in a way, by circumstance; by the condition of being close to death. I mean, he would have died. He was starving, poor, hungry, friendless. The Father gives us sight. The son sees it is better to be a servant in his father's house than to be poor, hungry, friendless and hated in the world. So he repents and asks for forgiveness. He enters through forgiveness, ready to serve, and into his father's joy at being found.

However, once the father had seen the son's repentence, he was more than willing to offer his love and the son retained his status as son. It was the son who threw it away - the father didn't take the son's inheritance away or his status as son.

The father always had love for his son. When he saw his son, he had compassion and he ran and embraced him and kissed him. Compassion is born of love.

It's not like the father switched on his love like a computer is turned on when the son repented. You've got it all wrong. Our Father has always loved us from the time we were born. He loved us when we left. He loved us even as we squandered our prosperity. He never lost his love for us. He just wants us back. The son had to go through the ordeal. He had to get it in his head that he was not worthy and repent. He had to ask for forgiveness. He had to want to be a servant. The teaching is sure. To bring us back, this is what we do. We know we are not worthy. We repent. We ask for forgiveness. We want to be a servant. Act like one. The Father is overjoyed. He kills the fatted calf. He prepares a feast.

The younger son represents the Gentile. The elder son, the house of Israel. The elder brother is saved when he recognizes his younger brother.

 

[cyberjosh]

Francis,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. But before I answer it, so we don't get too caught up in that discussion that we miss it, I still want you to answer point-for-point that original commentary I gave to clear up any confusion between us and so that you can (supposedly) point out any incorrect doctrine you think it may give.

To make it easy for you I will try to group the commentary into parts so you can address them in increments:

1. Cf. 10:22. The one's who peresevere are the same one's who are saved - not the ones whose love Grows cold (previous verse, v. 12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation.

2. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers "are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation" (1 Peter 1:5).

3. The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Covenant promise. God says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me" (Jeremiah 32:40). Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truely believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

4. To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive in the process, however. He keeps us "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5) - our faith.

5. Scripture sometimes calls us to hold fast to our faith (Hebrews 10:23; Revelation 3:11) or warns us against falling away (Hebrews 10:26-29). Such admonitions do not negate the many promises that true believers will persevere (John 10:28, 29; Romans 8:38, 39; 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9; Phil 1:6). Rather, the warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the faith.

6. Noctice that the warnings and the promises often occur side by side. For example, when Jude urges believers, "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21) he immediately points them to God, "who is able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24).

-------------------------

I know that you already answered point one but the rest I would appreciate you answering, especially #2, #3, and #5. I agree with #5 and this seems to be where you don't agree.

P.S. I sent you an informatory PM, I hope you read it.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Francis,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply. But before I answer it, so we don't get too caught up in that discussion that we miss it, I still want you to answer point-for-point that original commentary I gave to clear up any confusion between us and so that you can (supposedly) point out any incorrect doctrine you think it may give.

Josh,

Your presumptions, numbers 2-5, can be answered with one comment - which nullifies POTS...

Only GOD knows who is of the elect for HEAVEN. Certainly, people are called are elected to the People of God, the Church. However, because men fall away after the call, (as Paul discusses in 1 Cor 10) WE don't know who ARE the saints that God will indeed enable to persevere into heaven.

The Scripture quotes you gave me all presume that God will enable a man to persevere. When all is said and done, we will look back and note "Yes, God, you enabled me to persevere". However, from this side of heaven, we don't absolutly know that WE are individually of the "elect". We have not reached the end of our lives yet. God enables me to persevere, but WILL I? Scripture presumes I will positively respond - but also notes that some WILL NOT.

Here is the problem with POTS, similar to OSAS:

Beginning with today, we have two people, John and Jane Doe. BOTH claim to be POTS. In other words, they CLAIM that God will enable them to persevere until the end. They may falter or sin, but they are heaven-bound no matter what happens.

But ten years from now, we take "John Doe". Something happens in his life and he falls away, back into the slavery of adultery, or whatever, and doesn't repent. He loses faith in God. This John Doe previously held to POTS. He presumed that God would enable him to persevere. But clearly, his current life shows he is NOT persevering in the Lord. Thus, Jane Doe, in a huff, declares that John Doe was NEVER saved to begin with, was NEVER a saint... "Knowing" that God will enable His elect to persevere in the end, Jane naturally believes that John never was of the saints to begin with. Thus, POTS is also a serious issue because we are presuming we are of the saints, when we do not know the future. IF we respond to God, it is because of God. IF we persevere, it is because of God. But it doesn't follow that I WILL persevere - since man has free will to grieve the Holy Spirit.

What is missing from your POTS is that the Bible PRESUMES that the follower of Christ will NOT be abandoned by GOD! Those who remain in Christ, those who do not reject God, they are doing so ONLY BECAUSE GOD ENABLED THAT MAN TO DO SO! Thus, yes, God enables the righteous to remain righteous. But this is also a result of man's response of faith to God. Clearly, there is an interaction. But man's positive response cannot be attributed ENTIRELY to the man, since God places within us the desire to will to do good. Does this desire to do good overwhelm our free will? No.

Thus, yes, God enables man to persevere - as the Scriptures note. But it doesn't follow that man is forced to persevere. God gives us the ability to choose him which we didn't have before our re-birth. The Spirit comes to us and reforms us into His image, Jesus Christ. But because God is Love, it is not forceful. Thus, if a man does not choose to give of himself, he will not be forcibly transformed into something he does not desire...

Try to remember God is Love. This binds my entire paradigm when viewing the Scriptures. God desires ALL men to be saved. A God of Love offers His love freely to ALL men. The fact that some men do not accept it tells us that man has that ability to reject God - and God holds Himself to that rejection. Thus, God will enable those who accept Him to persevere. He realizes our wounded nature needs His help. But since God is Love, He doesn't force us to be saved. He doesn't randomly choose whom to save, damning the rest regardless of their attempts to come to Him.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Josh,

Your presumptions, numbers 2-5, can be answered with one comment - which nullifies POTS...

Only GOD knows who is of the elect for HEAVEN. Certainly, people are called are elected to the People of God, the Church. However, because men fall away after the call, (as Paul discusses in 1 Cor 10) WE don't know who ARE the saints that God will indeed enable to persevere into heaven.

The Scripture quotes you gave me all presume that God will enable a man to persevere. When all is said and done, we will look back and note "Yes, God, you enabled me to persevere". However, from this side of heaven, we don't absolutly know that WE are individually of the "elect". We have not reached the end of our lives yet. God enables me to persevere, but WILL I? Scripture presumes I will positively respond - but also notes that some WILL NOT.

Here is the problem with POTS, similar to OSAS:

Beginning with today, we have two people, John and Jane Doe. BOTH claim to be POTS. In other words, they CLAIM that God will enable them to persevere until the end. They may falter or sin, but they are heaven-bound no matter what happens.

But ten years from now, we take "John Doe". Something happens in his life and he falls away, back into the slavery of adultery, or whatever, and doesn't repent. He loses faith in God. This John Doe previously held to POTS. He presumed that God would enable him to persevere. But clearly, his current life shows he is NOT persevering in the Lord. Thus, Jane Doe, in a huff, declares that John Doe was NEVER saved to begin with, was NEVER a saint... "Knowing" that God will enable His elect to persevere in the end, Jane naturally believes that John never was of the saints to begin with. Thus, POTS is also a serious issue because we are presuming we are of the saints, when we do not know the future. IF we respond to God, it is because of God. IF we persevere, it is because of God. But it doesn't follow that I WILL persevere - since man has free will to grieve the Holy Spirit.

What is missing from your POTS is that the Bible PRESUMES that the follower of Christ will NOT be abandoned by GOD! Those who remain in Christ, those who do not reject God, they are doing so ONLY BECAUSE GOD ENABLED THAT MAN TO DO SO! Thus, yes, God enables the righteous to remain righteous. But this is also a result of man's response of faith to God. Clearly, there is an interaction. But man's positive response cannot be attributed ENTIRELY to the man, since God places within us the desire to will to do good. Does this desire to do good overwhelm our free will? No.

Thus, yes, God enables man to persevere - as the Scriptures note. But it doesn't follow that man is forced to persevere. God gives us the ability to choose him which we didn't have before our re-birth. The Spirit comes to us and reforms us into His image, Jesus Christ. But because God is Love, it is not forceful. Thus, if a man does not choose to give of himself, he will not be forcibly transformed into something he does not desire...

Try to remember God is Love. This binds my entire paradigm when viewing the Scriptures. God desires ALL men to be saved. A God of Love offers His love freely to ALL men. The fact that some men do not accept it tells us that man has that ability to reject God - and God holds Himself to that rejection. Thus, God will enable those who accept Him to persevere. He realizes our wounded nature needs His help. But since God is Love, He doesn't force us to be saved. He doesn't randomly choose whom to save, damning the rest regardless of their attempts to come to Him.

Regards

OK, I see your example. I'll say for now that I will believe that one can fall away from salvation, and I've always suspected so because of verses like Hebrews 6:4-6, but I wanted to get a coherent theology first in which to interpret such verses. Now with that out of the way I want to clarify a few things which I believe must be answered.

First, granted that a person can fall away, what to you make of 2 Peter 1:10 which I quoted earlier that said that those who really do the things Peter mentioned (add virtue to faith, etc.) that they can make their election sure now, meaning that they can be assured of what God has already ordained.

Secondly why was Jesus able to tell the disciples definately, because they had persevered with him thus far (just to this point in their life), that they would definately be with him in his kingdom rule with him over the twelve tribes of Israel (Luke 22:28-30)? They were only half way through their lives and their real ministry hadn't even really started. And Jesus even said this to Peter whom he soon thereafter, or had already, told him that he would deny him 3 times! Remember Jesus also promised them the coming of the Holy Spirit to give them power, but they still had their entire life ahead of them at that point. We can't really say that Jesus put them in a catch22, doomed to a self-fulfilling prophecy. Rather it seems like Jesus promised that God would keep them and work his goodwill in them all the way to the end (given their shortcomings and stumblings) so that they would definately be in the kingdom with him because they were already His and had already chosen who they were going to follow. How is this possible?


Lastly about 1 Peter 1:5, in context what do you think it means?

"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to (D)a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. "

How does God "keep" us? If it it dependant on us then how can it be regarded as keeping in any sense? I really would like to know.

 

[TanNinety]

To make it easy for you I will try to group the commentary into parts so you can address them in increments:

I have enjoyed your conversation with Joe and I would like to step in here so I can address things point wise like you want.
***
1. Cf. 10:22. The one's who peresevere are the same one's who are saved - not the ones whose love Grows cold (previous verse, v. 12). This does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation.

Ans: I fail to see how the conclusion of “this does not suggest that our perseverance secures our salvation†can be true?

If A always results in B. Then how can one say it does not suggest that B is not secured by A?
If A has a result B or C. Then the above conclusion can be drawn that A always does not secure B.
***
2. Scripture everywhere teaches precisely the opposite: God, as part of His saving work, secures our perseverance. True believers "are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation" (1 Peter 1:5).

Ans: God secures and shields our perseverance by what? The bolded part above, “through faithâ€Â. Whose faith is it talking about? Is it God’s faith on us or the believer’s faith on God. Now, if a believer loses this faith through which God keeps him by His power, will God’s power override the believer’s faith?
***
3. The guarantee of our perseverance is built into the New Covenant promise. God says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me" (Jeremiah 32:40). Those who do fall away from Christ give conclusive proof that they were never truely believers to begin with (1 John 2:19).

Ans: The bolded part is no true Scotsman logical fallacy. In any case, you say Christ’s sacrifice covers all the sin of the world. Now is everyone saved since the blood is big enough to cover every sin? Similarly, God places fear in the heart of all believers, now will every believer show this Godly fear and stay the course?
***
4. To say that God secures our perseverance is not to say that we are passive in the process, however. He keeps us "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5) - our faith.

Ans: Faith is not a one time statement. I was a hindu, then an atheist, an agnostic, now a Christian (well not a Christian according to the orthodox definition because I disagree with most of the main doctrines of mainstream Christianity). God does not force this faith upon a believer. He can nurture it, nourish it, shield it, guide it, but doesn’t force it. Now a believer who can see this will stay the course and is less likely to abandon God. But to say that a believer can continue in sin and yet say that his faith has already saved him is a fatal mistake OSAS makes.
***
5. Scripture sometimes calls us to hold fast to our faith (Hebrews 10:23; Revelation 3:11) or warns us against falling away (Hebrews 10:26-29). Such admonitions do not negate the many promises that true believers will persevere (John 10:28, 29; Romans 8:38, 39; 1 Corinthians 1:8, 9; Phil 1:6). Rather, the warnings and pleas are among the means God uses to secure our perseverance in the faith.

Ans: Would the “warnings and pleas†do any good by themselves? Did they do any good to Israel? How many of them did they need? Doesn’t these “warnings and pleas†require the believer to “heed� This is an action required from the believer. Do all believers heed?
***
6. Noctice that the warnings and the promises often occur side by side. For example, when Jude urges believers, "keep yourselves in the love of God" (Jude 21) he immediately points them to God, "who is able to keep you from stumbling" (Jude 24).

Ans: God is able to save the whole world just as He is able to keep the believer from stumbling. Is the whole world saved? I don’t see the fallibility on God’s part. I see it on man’s end. If this weren’t true there is no need or necessity for “endurance†on man’s end.
-------------------------
I know what you are saying and where you are coming form. If someone who tastes the love God then he cannot turn away from it. I agree OSAS in that aspect from your point of view. But that is not how it is applied in mainstream Christianity. OSAS is more like: “Once you believe, you are saved and you can live your life the way you want nd there is not a sin in the world that you can commit that hasn’t already been forgiven without repentance that will separate you from God.†Now this I have a problem with.

 

[TanNinety]

Cyber, I wanted to drop a quick comment on your Luke 22:28-30 scripture you provided.

Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Yeshua spoke the above to His disciples.

Reading along lets see what one of the disciples who this is spoken to does!

Luke 22:47 And while he yet spake, behold a multitude, and he that was called Judas, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Jesus to kiss him. 48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?

Think Judas will be sitting, eating, drinking, in the kingdom of God which Yeshua said was appointed to His disciples? What went wrong for Judas? Was Yeshua not able to keep and guard his faith and have him persevere?

I am not saying the above squarely answers your question but it is something to think about.

 

[stranger]

However, once the father had seen the son's repentence, he was more than willing to offer his love and the son retained his status as son. It was the son who threw it away - the father didn't take the son's inheritance away or his status as son. . . Apparently, human experience shows this as a truth - on a daily basis.
Regards

Hi francisdesales,

You have used the expression 'throw it away' on a number of occassions and I thought why would anyone want to do that? 'Lose' or perhaps be 'defrauded' of the inheritence - or 'sold' his inheritence . . . There seems to be a range of foolishly bad options out there as life demonstrates. . . Still your expression has a ring to it.

I found this: Jer 17:4

And you will, even of yourself, let go of your inheritance That I gave you; And I will make you serve your enemies In the land which you do not know; For you have kindled a fire in My anger Which will burn forever.

What was the 'inheritence' itself really about?

In Christ: stranger

 

[cyberjosh]

Think Judas will be sitting, eating, drinking, in the kingdom of God which Yeshua said was appointed to His disciples? What went wrong for Judas? Was Yeshua not able to keep and guard his faith and have him persevere?

I am not saying the above squarely answers your question but it is something to think about.

Actually Judas was not present when Jesus spoke that. I once did a thorough, several-hour study by paralleling all 4 Gospels accounts of the Passover meal & Last Supper to determine the correct chronology and I am convinced that Judas left soon after the disciples feet were washed and sat through the Passover meal but not when Jesus enacted the Last Supper, he left before that.

 

[francisdesales]

The question is, was the son forced back? Yes, in a way, by circumstance; by the condition of being close to death. I mean, he would have died. He was starving, poor, hungry, friendless. The Father gives us sight. The son sees it is better to be a servant in his father's house than to be poor, hungry, friendless and hated in the world. So he repents and asks for forgiveness. He enters through forgiveness, ready to serve, and into his father's joy at being found.

No, the son was NOT forced back! The circumstances made him re-think his situation. However, the son's pride could have extinguished any sort of repentance towards the father. The son could have left for another land, or could have stolen food, for example. God certainly brings about the circumstances that call us to repent. However, it doesn't follow that WE (or the son) MUST repent or return to God.

It's not like the father switched on his love like a computer is turned on when the son repented. You've got it all wrong. Our Father has always loved us from the time we were born.

Sorry, I mispoke. You are correct, the father ALWAYS loved his son. What I meant to say is that the son only realized it when he returned home. The son's eyes were closed to the father's love until he experienced his father's compassion upon his return.

The younger son represents the Gentile. The elder son, the house of Israel. The elder brother is saved when he recognizes his younger brother.

I am not sure about that last sentence. Does the elder brother recognize his younger brother in the parable? I don't think the parable addresses that.

Regards