Giving up

[francisdesales]

First, granted that a person can fall away, what to you make of 2 Peter 1:10 which I quoted earlier that said that those who really do the things Peter mentioned (add virtue to faith, etc.) that they can make their election sure now, meaning that they can be assured of what God has already ordained.

The way I read it is that our salvation is guaranteed TODAY if we do what Peter lists before 2 Peter 1:10. We make our election sure NOW. Thus, if I am called TODAY, my election is assured, because I am abiding in Christ as I am walking in faith. This says nothing about the future, only about my "status" today.

Consider these verses that I read today:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates." 2 Cor 13: 5-6

I believe these verses speak to the heart of the matter of our conversations. (God seems to have a way of doing this to me...)

When we examine ourselves TODAY, and we see we are walking in faith, we are proving ourselves. Thus, we know that Christ is abiding within us, UNLESS we fail the test! Paul goes on to say that he TRUSTS we are abiding in Christ - but doesn't say the Corinthians are DEFINITELY abiding in Christ. That is something that the individual must examine for himself, as no one but God can know what is in the heart of another individual.

Secondly why was Jesus able to tell the disciples definately, because they had persevered with him thus far (just to this point in their life), that they would definately be with him in his kingdom rule with him over the twelve tribes of Israel (Luke 22:28-30)? They were only half way through their lives and their real ministry hadn't even really started. And Jesus even said this to Peter whom he soon thereafter, or had already, told him that he would deny him 3 times! Remember Jesus also promised them the coming of the Holy Spirit to give them power, but they still had their entire life ahead of them at that point. We can't really say that Jesus put them in a catch22, doomed to a self-fulfilling prophecy.

I think there are several things to consider. First, the Gospels were written well after Jesus had died - and in most cases, the Apostles themselves. Thus, we are reading an after-action report written by the disciples of the Apostles FOR disciples of the Apostles. Thus, the writers of Scriptures already were able to see that the Apostles DID persevere until the end. Secondly, God has a special place in salvation history for the Apostles. Seeing that God has a place in heaven for the Apostles, then it must follow that God "foresees" that they WOULD persevere. Of course, Judas did not - which God also "foresaw".

I place "foresee" in quotes because technically, God doesn't "foresee" anything. To us, He does because we are in time. But to God, all time is one NOW. Thus, ALL time is one moment of the present. Creation and the end of the world are currently present in God's view. Thus, He IS able to see the Apostles being born, being selected by Jesus, running from the cross, receiving the Spirit, preaching the Word, and dying for their faith as ONE MOMENT IN TIME! The best I can explain this is that God sees all things SIMULTANEOUSLY. As a result, God sees the elect's choices AND elects them at the same time...

Perhaps that is too deep, but this comes from a lot of thought and discussion with other Protestants on how God sees time. It is a mystery, since we do not observe time as such, but rather, chronologically. But I believe God can say that the apostles had places in heaven because God already saw them sitting there in the present NOW of God's eternity.

Whew.

Lastly about 1 Peter 1:5, in context what do you think it means?

"3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to (D)a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. "

How does God "keep" us? If it it dependant on us then how can it be regarded as keeping in any sense? I really would like to know.

Because God provides the will and desire for us to work out our salvation in the first place. We merely are returning the gift of positive response that God has given to us. But like any gift, it can go unused. Thus, ANY positive response to God is primarily attributed to God.

I believe I have used this analogy before, but here it is again.

I step up to the bench press machine. I can NEVER pick up 2000 pounds off the bar. God has given me a crane. Now, I step up to the bar with confidence that I CAN pick up 2000 pounds IF I use the gift that God has given me - the crane. However, I can REFUSE to use it - and as such, I won't be able to pick it up. If I use it, I will be successful. If I don't, I won't be successful.

Thus, God "keeps" us in that He constantly provides us the ability to obey His commandments - the Holy Spirit. We are never far from Him. He comes to us daily through other people, through the liturgy, through the Bible, through private prayer. However, we can choose not to follow God's advice through these mediums. We can be stubborn and refuse to listen. We can ALSO be blind to God's promptings, thinking that our success is not God's action, but our own. Our pride can get in the way of realizing God is there. It is only through experiencing God in our lives that we begin to trust that He is active and is available to provide what we need to follow Him. But in the end, we, too, must make that committment. We all know people who hear the Word and it does not take root. Or, it takes root, but then dies during the first drought. Thus, the parable of the sower and the seed. The GROUND where the seed lands is ALSO important.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Hi francisdesales,

You have used the expression 'throw it away' on a number of occassions and I thought why would anyone want to do that? 'Lose' or perhaps be 'defrauded' of the inheritence - or 'sold' his inheritence . . . There seems to be a range of foolishly bad options out there as life demonstrates. . . Still your expression has a ring to it.

In the end, we place our trust in faith. We do not yet SEE our salvation. Thus, one can lose trust in God and throw something they had IN FAITH away. To a person who has lost faith in God, they believe they are not throwing away salvation - they contend that Christianity is baloney, they don't need God, if He even exists, etc... In other words, they deny that salvation is even being offered to them, for whatever reason. Perhaps a difficult time in their lives or a death of a loved one will cause such a reaction. I have seen it before. Perhaps it is true, their faith wasn't strong to begin with. But the fact is that they begin to doubt God because "He let 'x' happen". And in time, they return to their past life of sin, giving up on God because they don't SEE His salvation offered.

Regards

 

[destiny]

In the end, we place our trust in faith. We do not yet SEE our salvation. Thus, one can lose trust in God and throw something they had IN FAITH away. To a person who has lost faith in God, they believe they are not throwing away salvation - they contend that Christianity is baloney, they don't need God, if He even exists, etc... In other words, they deny that salvation is even being offered to them, for whatever reason. Perhaps a difficult time in their lives or a death of a loved one will cause such a reaction. I have seen it before. Perhaps it is true, their faith wasn't strong to begin with. But the fact is that they begin to doubt God because "He let 'x' happen". And in time, they return to their past life of sin, giving up on God because they don't SEE His salvation offered.

Regards

I know people like the type fran has mentioned.
I have also been in danger of losing my own salvation before. I allowed my self to get so far away from God, I loved certain sins in my life more than Him.
I honestly believe if I hadn't of verbally asked God not to let me go no matter what, I would have hardened my heart against Him and went on.
David asked the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him in the psalms.
By our actions and state of mind we can invite God into our lives, and by our actions and state of mind we can invite Him to leave.
If a person can't understand how one falls away from God...read of Davids life. Yes, he repented ...but it was still his choice to do so or there would have been no need for God to send Nathan to him.

 

[cyberjosh]

You and Tan have given me many good points to mull over. I will have to come back later once I think more about this. But what I'm seeing right now is a clash of the Titans between Bible verses of what seem like unconditional promises (or promises based on a condition fulfilled by God himself - which actually atonement is) but which apparently with some doubt can be read into it an exception.

I'm still puzzled about GOd's promise in Jeremiah which says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." I didn't see any condition there. It simply says "they will not depart from me". Where is the condition? Why should we not take this at face value?

Oh and I have to say I'm still not convinced by your response to why Jesus told them that they would be in the kingdom with him. That just seemed a little too slippery to me, if you don't mind me saying. Perhaps you could elaborate.

Would the “warnings and pleas†do any good by themselves? Did they do any good to Israel? How many of them did they need? Doesn’t these “warnings and pleas†require the believer to “heed� This is an action required from the believer. Do all believers heed?

Ah you're right! There is a hole in that part of the arguement.

See, I'll admit things when I can be proved wrong...

-------------------------

Two other things I wanted to point out. The way that the NT portrays hope (not as the English word, but with more surety) seems to betray the idea that we cannot have assurance of salvation, because we then have no basis for joy though the NT tells us that we can rejoice in that hope. I see a contradiction. Christians must have a clear goal which they can see, and God makes future promises based on today which he will accomplish for us, so I need to see the fine line if indeed there is one.

Another thing, which I thought of a long time ago, is from the Arminian perspective that we are never secure in our salvation, because it is all based on today: What is to say that once we get to heaven with Jesus that we cannot also become like Lucifer and be puffed up with pride of our glory and fall from heaven? If we have insecurity of salvation on earth then why should we have security in heaven? It stands to reason to ask.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

I know people like the type fran has mentioned.
I have also been in danger of losing my own salvation before. I allowed my self to get so far away from God, I loved certain sins in my life more than Him.
I honestly believe if I hadn't of verbally asked God not to let me go no matter what, I would have hardened my heart against Him and went on.
David asked the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him in the psalms.
By our actions and state of mind we can invite God into our lives, and by our actions and state of mind we can invite Him to leave.
If a person can't understand how one falls away from God...read of Davids life. Yes, he repented ...but it was still his choice to do so or there would have been no need for God to send Nathan to him.

Exactly right. I believe an honest Christian who has been there can empathize with Destiny or any other who believes they have been in danger of losing their salvation for whatever reason. After talking with such people, we get the idea that WE ALSO are involved somehow, that God is not doing everything.

Certainly He has provided for our salvation, but for those who have been there, and looking back at the struggle, they realize that "yea, you know, I COULD have turned from God..." That is a sobering reality check on the freedom that God has given us. God really DOES take a "chance" with us! A person who has weathered the storm of doubt or addiction or any other sin can vouch for those times that salvation really DID hang in the balance, so to speak. But we also realize that God DID provide a way out of those temptations. A way that we CHOSE to take! I believe that God truly works in such moments. Consider Job and how his faith strengthened as a result of being tried in the crucible. Such people become more humble, rather than the presumptuous people who already "KNOW" they are of the elect 20 years from now.

David is an excellent example of the "apple of God's eye" being put to the test. A test, naturally, presumes one can fail! However, as Sacred Writ relates, we CANNOT fail if we place our trust in God. Will we? Only God knows.

Just as in combat. We can train all we want to shoot to kill someone. But when it comes down to it, will we actually do instantly when faced with the situation? Only God knows.

Regards

 

[destiny]

Exactly right. I believe an honest Christian who has been there can empathize with Destiny or any other who believes they have been in danger of losing their salvation for whatever reason. After talking with such people, we get the idea that WE ALSO are involved somehow, that God is not doing everything.

Certainly He has provided for our salvation, but for those who have been there, and looking back at the struggle, they realize that "yea, you know, I COULD have turned from God..." That is a sobering reality check on the freedom that God has given us. God really DOES take a "chance" with us! A person who has weathered the storm of doubt or addiction or any other sin can vouch for those times that salvation really DID hang in the balance, so to speak. But we also realize that God DID provide a way out of those temptations. A way that we CHOSE to take! I believe that God truly works in such moments. Consider Job and how his faith strengthened as a result of being tried in the crucible. Such people become more humble, rather than the presumptuous people who already "KNOW" they are of the elect 20 years from now.

David is an excellent example of the "apple of God's eye" being put to the test. A test, naturally, presumes one can fail! However, as Sacred Writ relates, we CANNOT fail if we place our trust in God. Will we? Only God knows.

Just as in combat. We can train all we want to shoot to kill someone. But when it comes down to it, will we actually do instantly when faced with the situation? Only God knows.

Regards

Thats wisdom in you talking, fran. Wisdom is costly...so is the cross. Hard tests will come to those who love the Lord.

 

[francisdesales]

I'm still puzzled about GOd's promise in Jeremiah which says,: "I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me." I didn't see any condition there. It simply says "they will not depart from me". Where is the condition? Why should we not take this at face value?

And who are those who God puts fear into so they will not depart? EVERYONE? Being human, we have fooled ourselves into thinking WE are one of those persons without considering that we won't know that we were one of those UNTIL we face God at judgment time - and He will show us how He lovingly led us to Him.

Oh and I have to say I'm still not convinced by your response to why Jesus told them that they would be in the kingdom with him. That just seemed a little too slippery to me, if you don't mind me saying. Perhaps you could elaborate.

Slippery... LOL. (Cue evil laugh) :-D

Does God see all time as one NOW? Or does God live within time, subject to it? Does God sit down and say "Today, I'll create the universe". And tommorrow, "I'll create man". And tommorrow, "I'll watch Adam sin"?

No, this is placing God into our human idea of time. God lives in the present. Thus, EVERYTHING that is ever done is seen NOW to God. God is changeless. That means God is timeless, because time is a measure of change. Thus, God has no chronological order in His plan. We see it develop in proper order, BUT God doesn't. He sees it all at once. Thus, why can't Jesus say that the Apostles will sit in chairs to judge the tribes of Israel? God sees the beginning and end simultaneously. To Him, they are already there!

Still slippery? Then why does Jesus say He will be with the Church for all time? Why does Jesus say that the Spirit of God will be sent to them? Why does Jesus say that He must first go to Jerusalem and die on a cross? Why does Jesus say these things? Because He is aware of OUR future, HIS present. Thus, I see nothing wrong with Jesus saying that the Apostles WILL (ARE to God) be seated on chairs in heaven.

Perhaps another explanation is that Jesus is speaking metaphorically in your example. The number 12, no doubt, refers to the 12 tribes of Israel. Naturally, Jesus is reforming the People of God through the figure of 12 Apostles. Thus, this might be Jesus' way of saying that the New Covenant is a rebirth of the People of God. This seems to be a plausible explanation, because the Apostles' number was strictly symbolic, because the Church still does not maintain 12 Apostles or Bishops or Successors. The number 12 merely established something during Jesus' time, relating something of His work - naturally, pointing to the original 12 tribes of the People of God. Thus, if the first explanation appears too slippery, how about this one? Perhaps Jesus is not saying the Apostles will literally be in heaven, but that His establishment of the New People of God will be secure?

Another thing, which I thought of a long time ago, is from the Arminian perspective that we are never secure in our salvation, because it is all based on today: What is to say that once we get to heaven with Jesus that we cannot also become like Lucifer and be puffed up with pride of our glory and fall from heaven? If we have insecurity of salvation on earth then why should we have security in heaven? It stands to reason to ask.

There is no insecurity in heaven because our hope will be MORE than fully realized. Lucifer was already there, seeing the glory of God. He nevertheless decided he did not want to give of himself (the definition of love), but to get for himself. Those who will enter the Kingdom will not have this desire of selfishness, because NOTHING impure shall enter heaven. NOt even selfish desires! All such selfish desires will be eliminated - (I as a Catholic believe this will be done in Purgatory - but that is another subject) and it can be no other way, because God is a God of Love. We CANNOT join fully with a giving God if WE are not ALSO giving of ourselves. Thus, our will will be directed towards God when we enter heaven. There will be no desire or concern for self (re-read 1 Cor 13 on what love is - "no concern for self").

Those in heaven will love - which means they will have no concern for themselves, only for their Beloved. Then, our joy will be complete, as our faith and hope is realized and all that is left is Love.

Hope that helps.

God bless,

Joe

 

[Oscar3]

John Calvin

Without a doubt, the most important Reformed theology to come out of the Protestant Reformation was that of John Calvin. He was born in Noyon, France, on July 10, 1509. Calvin studied in Paris, where he encountered humanism as well as the conservative reaction to it. Calvin was familiar with the writings and theology of Wycliffe, Hus, and Luther. He drew his deepest inspiration, however, from Augustine. Calvin believed that he was doing nothing more than reproducing “that holy man’s own plain and uncompromising teachings.†“If I wanted to compile a whole volume from Augustine, I would readily show my readers that I need no other language than his.â€Â
Calvin’s theological system begins, as did Augustine’s and Aquinas’s before him, with man’s present conditionâ€â€one of complete moral corruption. For “Even though we grant that God’s image was not totally annihilated and destroyed in man, yet was it so corrupted that whatever remains is a horrible deformity.â€Â
Calvin held that “Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, which he has determined in himself, what he would have to become of every individual of mankind.†Election is prior to faith, for “While the elect receive the grace of adoption by faith, their election does not depend on faith, but is prior in time and order.â€Â
Calvin refers to justification as the “main hinge upon which religion turns.†It “consists in remission of sins and the imputation of Christ’s righteousness.†Departing at this point from Augustine, Aquinas, and the medieval tradition, Calvin does not see justification as involving an infusion of grace. “We are justified by God solely by the intercession of Christ’s righteousness.†What place, then, do good works have in the life of the believer? “To the charge that justification thus understood obviates the need for good works Calvin’s firm reply is, like Luther’s, that although in no respect can good works become the ground of our holiness a living faith is never devoid of such works. Thus justification necessarily has its consequence in sanctification.â€Â
Christian salvation includes both justification and sanctification. Calvin kept these doctrines in balance, writing, “We confess that, when God reconciles us to himself by means of the justice of Christ, and by the free remission of our sins, reputes us to be just, he joins to this mercy a further benefit, namely, he dwells in us by his holy Spirit, by whose virtue the lusts of our flesh are daily more and more mortified, and we are ourselves sanctified, that is, consecrated to God in true purity of life, our hearts once moulded to the obedience of the Law.â€Â
Hence, “God’s justification of the sinner must lead to ethical, eternal sanctification; but justification can never be based on man’s ethical attainments. God’s justification must lead to righteousness of life, but such righteousness of life is never the basis for God’s justification.â€Â
In closing the discussion of Calvin and his contributions to Christian thought, let us hear the words of another Reformed theologian:
The fundamental interest of Calvin as a theologian lay, it is clear, in the region broadly designated soteriological. Perhaps we may go further and add that, within this broad field, his interest was most intense in the application to the sinful soul of the salvation wrought out by Christ . . . and we have been told that the main fault of the Institutes . . . ies in its too subjective character. Its effect, at all events, has been to constitute Calvin pre-eminently “the theologian of the Holy Spirit.â€Â
For Calvin, justification was an aspect of the greater question of man’s relation to God in Christ.

 

[cyberjosh]

And who are those who God puts fear into so they will not depart? EVERYONE? Being human, we have fooled ourselves into thinking WE are one of those persons without considering that we won't know that we were one of those UNTIL we face God at judgment time - and He will show us how He lovingly led us to Him.

But you are admitting then that God can still make it happen, even though you say we might not know it, but nonetheless making it true. Though I disagree that the Bible says that we cannot know about it (the fear of God is very evident, and also the OT makes having the fear of God one of the chief achivements). We can gain assurance and hope in God and rejoice because of it, as I see it.

Slippery... LOL. (Cue evil laugh)

Does God see all time as one NOW? Or does God live within time, subject to it? Does God sit down and say "Today, I'll create the universe". And tommorrow, "I'll create man". And tommorrow, "I'll watch Adam sin"?

No, this is placing God into our human idea of time. God lives in the present. Thus, EVERYTHING that is ever done is seen NOW to God. God is changeless. That means God is timeless, because time is a measure of change. Thus, God has no chronological order in His plan. We see it develop in proper order, BUT God doesn't. He sees it all at once. Thus, why can't Jesus say that the Apostles will sit in chairs to judge the tribes of Israel? God sees the beginning and end simultaneously. To Him, they are already there!

Still slippery? Then why does Jesus say He will be with the Church for all time? Why does Jesus say that the Spirit of God will be sent to them? Why does Jesus say that He must first go to Jerusalem and die on a cross? Why does Jesus say these things? Because He is aware of OUR future, HIS present. Thus, I see nothing wrong with Jesus saying that the Apostles WILL (ARE to God) be seated on chairs in heaven.

And you don't think we can look to God and gain our assurance of His reality? That goes against everything God wants in our lives. We can realize that we are called, and the words "elect" and "saint" would have been useless to the Apostles unless they could use it with surety. I saw confidence and not doubt in the Apostles portrayal of their own destiny and the destiny of the saints. Remember, our hearts can be assured towards God and even when we doubt He is greater, meaning he knows who are his even when we doubt it, though it doesn't have to be that way because we can be assured in Him. I don't see how God could have put the Apostles in a catch 22. If someone told me how I was going to die and I spent my whole life trying to avert it yet in so doing brought it about that would be like if God told me my end in him and forced me to accepet Him. Rather I see it as I accepted Him first (before I am assured) by God's grace and then God put his will in me to accomplish his promises, thus it isn't His will against ours but his will becoming ours because we allowed him to make us a new creation. The battle like Gabby said in another thread is over the soul which chooses which way to walk in day by day. The level of fruit one will bear as a Christian is variable though. I think he told the Apostles and then put his will in them (the Holy Spirit) and then brought it about in their amazing ministry.

And I have yet to see anyone sucessfully explain how one's new regenerated man would die, and how the Holy Spirit would leave, and how the flesh would un-crucify itself for a person who was supposedly saved but then fell from salvation. I see no agent or allowance for that to be reality. Correct me if I am wrong.

There is no insecurity in heaven because our hope will be MORE than fully realized. Lucifer was already there, seeing the glory of God. He nevertheless decided he did not want to give of himself (the definition of love), but to get for himself. Those who will enter the Kingdom will not have this desire of selfishness, because NOTHING impure shall enter heaven. NOt even selfish desires! All such selfish desires will be eliminated - (I as a Catholic believe this will be done in Purgatory - but that is another subject) and it can be no other way, because God is a God of Love. We CANNOT join fully with a giving God if WE are not ALSO giving of ourselves. Thus, our will will be directed towards God when we enter heaven. There will be no desire or concern for self (re-read 1 Cor 13 on what love is - "no concern for self").

Those in heaven will love - which means they will have no concern for themselves, only for their Beloved. Then, our joy will be complete, as our faith and hope is realized and all that is left is Love.

There will also most certainly be shame of our past life and different levels of glory and different privelages and statuses though we will be worshiping God. Lucifer had cause for his self-exaltation because he considered himself the most spectacular of all. There is nothing to say that we can't also fall unless God can keep us totally. As for your mention of purgatory, that interjects an external feature into Biblical theology to try to axplain away the different levels of Christian development which cannot comprehensively be explained otherwise, thus is becomes a convenience to say that all will have purified themselves completely in a place such as purgatory. More problems arise in line with what I just said about falling in this life and falling in heaven. What is you can fall away in purgatory? Logic must dictate that also. unless you say that God can assure you of your cleansing at which point I have got you caught by making a confession of it. Think this through carefully.

I think I may make a seperate thread about this. I hope you don't mind if i carry what you and I have said on this so far over there.

P.S. I also would like to hear your response on our basis of hope if there is no assurance in Christ. Our joy would be as fleeting and vain, floating in uncertainty, as the pagan unbelievers if that were so, or so it seems.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

But you are admitting then that God can still make it happen, even though you say we might not know it, but nonetheless making it true. Though I disagree that the Bible says that we cannot know about it (the fear of God is very evident, and also the OT makes having the fear of God one of the chief achivements). We can gain assurance and hope in God and rejoice because of it, as I see it.

Yes - although my entire argument is more theoretical. We cannot absolutely know we will be saved in the end. But that doesn't mean we cannot have CONFIDENCE that we WILL be saved. My argument is that no one can absolutely KNOW they WILL be saved because we don't know our future. God in the end makes it happen - but remember, His graces fall on all men, good and evil. Thus, no one will be able to blame God for not receiving "enough" grace to enter the Kingdom. Judgment presumes that we have some sort of role to play in our own salvation.

And I have yet to see anyone sucessfully explain how one's new regenerated man would die, and how the Holy Spirit would leave, and how the flesh would un-crucify itself for a person who was supposedly saved but then fell from salvation. I see no agent or allowance for that to be reality. Correct me if I am wrong.

Here is the problem with your argument, which I have already pointed out. When a person takes Jesus Christ as their savior and repents of their sins, HE IS SAVED! He is regenerated - although not fully! We thus receive the first installment of the Holy Spirit, correct? Thus, EVERYONE who calls upon the Lord that first time is "born again". Otherwise, we end up questioning and doubting even our own "salvation". "Did it take?" "Am I really saved"? "Did I have enough faith?"

Are these the type of questions a person would ask if they KNEW they were saved for eternal heaven? No. Thus, the contradiction of POTS/OSAS. There is no "absolute assurance" if even ONE person falls away. And we see in Sacred Scriptures that MANY people who have been offered salvation, who have accepted salvation, will yet NOT be saved...

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. " "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? " "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" Mat 7:21-23

I don't know what Christ could have said to make His point more clearly!!! Don't just talk the talk! We must WALK in faith! Thus, such verses as:


"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Rom 10:9-10

...Are to be understood in the context of what Christ said. Paul presumes that one WOULD CONTINUE to walk in Christ. Paul HIMSELF has said all before Christ was as a dung heap... He presumes everyone else would feel that way as well. But Jesus clearly tells us that some WILL NOT! Some Christians who make the declaration "Lord, Lord" will NOT follow Christ. So does Paul in a number of places, esp. to the Corinthians.

There will also most certainly be shame of our past life and different levels of glory and different privelages and statuses though we will be worshiping God.

There will be no shame in heaven. As to different glories in heaven, yes. But we will all be filled to complete contention. However, our "containers of contention" will all be of various sizes, depending on our love. Thus, I may have a "one gallon container" which will be filled to the rim, and another have a "two gallon container" that will be filled to the rim. We will ALL realize perfect happiness based upon our levels of love.

As for your mention of purgatory, that interjects an external feature into Biblical theology to try to axplain away the different levels of Christian development which cannot comprehensively be explained otherwise, thus is becomes a convenience to say that all will have purified themselves completely in a place such as purgatory. More problems arise in line with what I just said about falling in this life and falling in heaven. What is you can fall away in purgatory? Logic must dictate that also. unless you say that God can assure you of your cleansing at which point I have got you caught by making a confession of it. Think this through carefully.

I do not really want to take this thread into a different direction, so I would only like to state that our wills our set after we die. There is no change of the will once we die. It will be purified, no doubt. But upon our death, we will either be in-tune with God or not (in various degrees). Our wills will be irrevocable, just as the angels in heaven. They made their choice upon their creation. We have made our choice through our lives here on earth. But in each case, the angels or humans will not change their minds again.

P.S. I also would like to hear your response on our basis of hope if there is no assurance in Christ. Our joy would be as fleeting and vain, floating in uncertainty, as the pagan unbelievers if that were so, or so it seems.

Not sure I understand the question. Of course our hope is based on the Resurrection of Christ and the promise given:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:16-17

Salvation is conditional - but the "yoke" is very light, because it is God who gives us the ability to obey Him. We are no longer given a Law and not given the means to obey it. Now with the New Covenant, the Spirit is sent to man to enable him to obey. As long as we abide in Christ, we are being saved. The basis of our hope is the Resurrection of Christ and the idea that God is righteous. Thus, we will be given a reward because God is righteous, not because He owes us. A righteous God will not break His promises to those who obey Him.

By the way, I am going on vacation for a week. I may or may not be able to respond to your future posts, depending on how much free time I have to answer you. So please forgive me if I do not respond to your future posts very quickly. I am enjoying our conversations, and hope they can continue.

Brother in Christ,

Joe

 

[MarkT]

Try to remember God is Love. This binds my entire paradigm when viewing the Scriptures. God desires ALL men to be saved. A God of Love offers His love freely to ALL men. The fact that some men do not accept it tells us that man has that ability to reject God - and God holds Himself to that rejection. Thus, God will enable those who accept Him to persevere. He realizes our wounded nature needs His help. But since God is Love, He doesn't force us to be saved. He doesn't randomly choose whom to save, damning the rest regardless of their attempts to come to Him.

The Spirit of God is love but the Word of God is going to judge men. You have to remember Jesus said, "Why do you call me good?" Can you figure it out? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:31

We know we do not enter his rest until death. We also know not everyone will die, but some will be changed.

Today we are in his joy. Today we are found. We do not worry about tomorrow. We do not talk about falling while we are soaring. We encourage one another. We do not put stumbling blocks in our neighbors path. We do not tempt others to fall with words of weakness. Today we have a believing heart.

God gives to one 5 talents and to another 10 talents and to another 1 talent. Talents of gold, put out at interest, grow. Thus knowledge, and through knowledge, faith grows. Knowledge is a sign just as faith is a commodity and we know God weighs the spirit.

We seek knowledge. We know it puffs up but this does not mean we do not seek the knowledge of God. As long as we do it for our neighbors good, we do it for the LORD. So we impart spiritual truth.

 

[MarkT]

These forums often are waterless springs.

Do you want to know what Christ will do when he returns? Judgment is a fearful prospect. He will kindle what is in your heart.

So, store up wisdom in your heart. It is like cold water to your soul.

 

[stranger]

"MarkT" wrote:

We know we do not enter his rest until death. . .

While I agree most haven't, all can, and some have. Heb4:9-11
It takes time to get to know people on forums - hang in there.

Blessings: stranger

 

[francisdesales]

The Spirit of God is love but the Word of God is going to judge men. You have to remember Jesus said, "Why do you call me good?" Can you figure it out? It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:31

Jesus also said :

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

I think Jesus is saying He is equal to the Father - that ALL persons of the Trinity are equally at work, whether it is creating or judging.

My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. " Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

And then...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. " "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel John 5:19-20

Thus, Jesus is not "assigned" Final Judgment alone without the Father or the Spirit. You would be then saying that there are three Gods. There is one Divinity, each Person possessing the entire Nature of God. Thus, Jesus doesn't do something the Father doesn't Himself also do.

Today we are in his joy. Today we are found. We do not worry about tomorrow. We do not talk about falling while we are soaring. We encourage one another. We do not put stumbling blocks in our neighbors path. We do not tempt others to fall with words of weakness. Today we have a believing heart.

Yes, God will provide, presuming we REMAIN in Christ. This is not a stumbling block. It is an exhortation made throughout the Scriptures. In nearly every book of the Bible. Remain in Christ.

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

Yes - although my entire argument is more theoretical. We cannot absolutely know we will be saved in the end. But that doesn't mean we cannot have CONFIDENCE that we WILL be saved.

That's an interesting way of puting it. What is that confidence resting on then? What basis do we have for it? I would greatly appreciate it if you could give a list of Scriptures for that. The more the better.

He is regenerated - although not fully!

Now here I definately need verses, that specifically mention regeneration. I would like to see the future aspect of it. I know the future redemption of our body, but that is different, and I also know that we are being renewed each day but it is our soul (our mind) that is renewed and not our new man, which is blameless before Christ. I need so see something that mentions regeneration as an incomplete process.

We thus receive the first installment of the Holy Spirit, correct?

There is no such thing an "installment" of the Holy Spirit. We recieve the whole Holy Spirit when we are reborn, not a part of Him. It is however our choice of whether we will fill ourselves with the Holy Spirit, that is why we are told "Do not be drunk with wine but be filled with the Holy Spirit" (Ephesians 5:18)

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. " "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? " "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" Mat 7:21-23

That can describe the unbeliever. Judas did all those things and even stayed when other disciples left but went to hell because he never had a real relationship with Jesus and didn't believe on Him.

There will be no shame in heaven. As to different glories in heaven, yes. But we will all be filled to complete contention. However, our "containers of contention" will all be of various sizes, depending on our love. Thus, I may have a "one gallon container" which will be filled to the rim, and another have a "two gallon container" that will be filled to the rim. We will ALL realize perfect happiness based upon our levels of love.

That was part of my own conjecture but if there is no shame then a Christian who lives a relatively sinful life will have no cause to worry because it all gets replaced with love in the end. I once asked my Dad what would happen in the end when you got to heaven for someone who sinned alot, how could they get away with it, and my Dad told me that there would probably be sorrow or shame on their part in Heaven (though no condemnation), and I'm pretty sure I would atleast cringe in regret in Heaven when I remeber all the times I sinned and grieved the Holy Spirit. It the Holy Spirit can grieve being God in Heaven, then so could the believer in Heaven. Just conjecture but it sounds reasonable.

I do not really want to take this thread into a different direction, so I would only like to state that our wills our set after we die. There is no change of the will once we die. It will be purified, no doubt. But upon our death, we will either be in-tune with God or not (in various degrees). Our wills will be irrevocable, just as the angels in heaven. They made their choice upon their creation. We have made our choice through our lives here on earth. But in each case, the angels or humans will not change their minds again

.

I would like to see Scripture that shows that our will will be irrevocable please.

Not sure I understand the question. Of course our hope is based on the Resurrection of Christ and the promise given:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Rom 8:16-17

Salvation is conditional - but the "yoke" is very light, because it is God who gives us the ability to obey Him. We are no longer given a Law and not given the means to obey it. Now with the New Covenant, the Spirit is sent to man to enable him to obey. As long as we abide in Christ, we are being saved. The basis of our hope is the Resurrection of Christ and the idea that God is righteous. Thus, we will be given a reward because God is righteous, not because He owes us. A righteous God will not break His promises to those who obey Him.

This I agree with, and it actually brings into view a more than merciful God because we shouldn't get rewards since we couldn't have peresevered with out God, so we really owe Him. And you are right about our basis for hope.

But now what about our basis for joy and rejoicing presently? That is what I was originally asking about. It would be fleeting and vain if our rejoicing was based on something not even guaranteed to us, so why rejoice at all? There must be something more sure then you are allowing for.


P.S. Talk to you later. Have a good vacation.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[MarkT]

No, the son was NOT forced back! The circumstances made him re-think his situation. However, the son's pride could have extinguished any sort of repentance towards the father. The son could have left for another land, or could have stolen food, for example. God certainly brings about the circumstances that call us to repent. However, it doesn't follow that WE (or the son) MUST repent or return to God.

In truth the son returns because he comes into his right mind. The parable doesn't say he could have stolen food. The parable says he had it in his heart to repent and to ask for forgiveness. The father, on the other hand, knows what is in his son's heart by the fact that he has returned. The son enters into his father's joy. The father kills the fatted calf. That's the new Covenant promise. The son is the brother to the brother who served his father by works. That was the Old Covenant.

But the subject of being forced and having freewill keeps coming up. I don't know why. In Christ, our will is subject to the Father. Jesus had his own will on earth but he told us he could do nothing of his own accord except what he saw the Father doing. It is so with us. Yes we have freewill. However we serve God in Christ. So there's two things going on. Our conscience informs us when we sin. When we pray for forgiveness, we are forgiven. Our conscience is clear.

Now as to how you came to believe, I would have you know that your belief did not come by your will. Neither can you disbelieve by your will. We are all compelled into the church, the good and the bad. Matthew 22:10, Luke 14:23 You have no choice to believe. You believe but if you don't understand, the devil will take away your belief. So you have no choice in disbelief either.

You can hide your talent like the fearful servant who hid his talent which describes the one who is fearful of knowing God, of gaining any knowledge of God, who does not want to read the Bible and who tells others not to read the Bible. You can read and not understand.

What we have is belief without seeing. Assurance with certainty. It's called faith! A pinch can move a mountain. We have Abraham's faith. We have Peter's faith. Did Jesus say, 'I think I am the Son of God? I'm not a 100% sure. Today I think I am. Tomorrow I might not think I am.'? Of course not.

When Paul spoke of Abraham's faith, he was talking about Abraham's belief that God could raise his son. That's the kind of confidence we have.

And the elect know who the elect are. Does that make sense?

 

[MarkT]

Abraham didn't say, 'I think I believe God today. I believe God's promise today but I'm not a 100% certain if I will tomorrow. I have freewill. I have a choice. I might not believe God tomorrow.

To me, injecting freewill into a doctrine is like telling people to sin. Test your will! You can reject God! It reminds me of what the serpent said to Eve. Test your will! You can eat and live and not die. Why is the argument for freewill always associated with sin? You can sin! You can sin! I don't think the Spirit of God would say such a thing.

 

[stranger]

francisdesales,

You hang in there to! 'As a man believes in his heart so he is'.

blessings: stranger

 

[MarkT]

Jesus also said :

And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. John 12:47

I think Jesus is saying He is equal to the Father - that ALL persons of the Trinity are equally at work, whether it is creating or judging.

My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. " Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17-18

And then...

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. " "For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel John 5:19-20

Thus, Jesus is not "assigned" Final Judgment alone without the Father or the Spirit. You would be then saying that there are three Gods. There is one Divinity, each Person possessing the entire Nature of God. Thus, Jesus doesn't do something the Father doesn't Himself also do.

You think so? Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. He is the One who does the will of the Father.

I guess you didn't come to Christ by the Old Testament. You should read Isaiah.

What the Father declared he would do from the beginning, the Son will carry out in the end. The Father declared it, the Word will do it. The Father doesn't do it. The Holy Spirit doesn't do it. The Word does it.

Jesus said, "I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" Luke 12 :49

Jesus wasn't here to judge anyone while he was on earth. He was sent to teach; to find the lost sheep of the house of Israel. But when he returns, it will be to judge and his judgment is severe.

 

[francisdesales]

Mark T,

I really appreciate your comments and our conversation. However, I probably will not be able to answer you promptly, as I am going on vacation tommorrow morning first thing. I will try, but I can't guarantee I will be able to answer your comments in the next week.

Please be patient and I will get with you as soon as I can. I should be back by the 6th.

Regards,

Joe