God cannot judge unaware people

[GodsGrace]

When I "sing the praises" of my wife to my friends and family, am I worshiping my wife? No.

Do you think we could be sure of this?
I'm not.
But I'd venture to say that the Trinity worships "itself"...each Person worships the other 2 Persons.

Never thought of this.

 

[Tenchi]

Do you think we could be sure of this?

Dunno. But I wouldn't be. My point is that it doesn't necessarily follow that praising something is tantamount to worshiping it. And so, the verse offered as grounds for asserting Jesus worshiped the Father by praising Him doesn't require such an assertion; such an assertion would be, I think, more eisegesis than exegesis.

But I'd venture to say that the Trinity worships "itself"...each Person worships the other 2 Persons.

??? This is not explicitly stated in the NT. And I have a hard time imagining what such worship would be, exactly.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dunno. But I wouldn't be. My point is that it doesn't necessarily follow that praising something is tantamount to worshiping it. And so, the verse offered as grounds for asserting Jesus worshiped the Father by praising Him doesn't require such an assertion; such an assertion would be, I think, more eisegesis than exegesis.



??? This is not explicitly stated in the NT. And I have a hard time imagining what such worship would be, exactly.

Right.
I agree with you that because you praise something does not mean you worship it.
Actually you could only worship a divine being.
Worshipping a human would not be a natural thing to do.

As to the Persons worshipping each other....
The thought came up while reading your last post to which I responded.
Maybe I'll look into it tomorrow.
Does the Son worship the Father?
Does the Father worship the Holy Spirit?

I most definitely do NOT like eisegesis BTW.
Too much of this is practiced.

 

[GodsGrace]

Dunno. But I wouldn't be. My point is that it doesn't necessarily follow that praising something is tantamount to worshiping it. And so, the verse offered as grounds for asserting Jesus worshiped the Father by praising Him doesn't require such an assertion; such an assertion would be, I think, more eisegesis than exegesis.



??? This is not explicitly stated in the NT. And I have a hard time imagining what such worship would be, exactly.

The Persons are all equal and are all eternal.
They're of the same authority and power.
One worshipping the other would be like you worshipping your wife.
Tomorrow...

 

[Fastfredy0]

But I'd venture to say that the Trinity worships "itself"...each Person worships the other 2 Persons.

... at first I thought "no" ... but I changed my mind. Yet, still seems awkward.
When I state God seeks His own interest and God says everything else is obligated to do the same ... they claim that is not true for it would make God selfish .

Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

 

[D-D-W]

When I "sing the praises" of my wife to my friends and family, am I worshiping my wife? No.

The word "worship" means to assign worth. So yes you are, if you think your wife is worth something.

The old Church of England wedding ceremony included the groom saying: "With my body I thee worship..."

 

[GodsGrace]

Dunno. But I wouldn't be. My point is that it doesn't necessarily follow that praising something is tantamount to worshiping it. And so, the verse offered as grounds for asserting Jesus worshiped the Father by praising Him doesn't require such an assertion; such an assertion would be, I think, more eisegesis than exegesis.



??? This is not explicitly stated in the NT. And I have a hard time imagining what such worship would be, exactly.

Didn't really read up on anything.
All three Persons are God.
God cannot worship Himself.

Good thinking exercise!

 

[Highway54]

Well, if Jesus was God incarnate, as the Bible says he was (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-20; Colossians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:1, etc.), then his words to Satan concerning worshiping God would be a command to Satan to worship himself. And so he didn't say to Satan, "We should worship God," only that Satan should worship God. As well, the prayers of Jesus would necessarily be of a different sort to our own since Jesus was a part of the Trinity, sharing in the divine nature in a way no human has ever enjoyed. As the God-Man, Christ's prayers would be for communion with God not worship of Him.



This doesn't answer my question. In speaking to Hebrew people, possessing their own distinct language, God would communicate to them in that language. I must do the same when I travel to, say, Japan. When Japanese people speak my name it is not much at all like my name spoken in my native English. It stands to reason that this is the case with God's name, too. The Tetragrammaton is actually a purposeful contraction (and thus distortion) of God's name, but it is silly to think that from eternity past God was referring to Himself as "YHWH." The Hebrew people did this, in part, in recognition of the greatness of God, trying to show respect to His name. But God isn't a Hebrew human, needing, or wanting, to show respect to a higher, divine power; He is the higher, divine power. I think God's actual name - if He even has one in the way we think of names - is quite unlike the distorted versions of it we take up - just like the Japanese people in Osaka, or Tokyo, who speak my name. It's a bit silly, then, to fuss over which one of His many names given in His word is the best - and only - name to use in reference to Him.



This is all a kind of Begging the Question, I'm afraid. Assertions are not an effective argument - especially when they assert as a given what they are proposing to justify or establish.

Well, if Jesus was God incarnate, as the Bible says he was (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-20; Colossians 2:9; 2 Peter 1:1, etc.),

Versions of the Bible have been altered to indicate that, but also note those same versions point out that if Jesus is God, he is a liar as well as stated by Mark 10:40 and 13:32. What hope do we have if God is a liar and confused about who he is?

This doesn't answer my question. In speaking to Hebrew people, possessing their own distinct language, God would communicate to them in that language. I must do the same when I travel to, say, Japan. When Japanese people speak my name it is not much at all like my name spoken in my native English. It stands to reason that this is the case with God's name, too.

Exactly! Jehovah's name is different in different languages Tenchi, you and I are speaking English therefore using Jehovah instead of YHWH

 

[Highway54]

They are yes and no questions.

I'll answer them now:

1. yes.
2. no.
3. no.
4. no.
5. no.

Sure we could go into detail.

But the point, and I insist on this, is that we are NOT SAVED because of WHAT WE KNOW,
but because of WHO WE KNOW.

But the point, and I insist on this, is that we are NOT SAVED because of WHAT WE KNOW,
but because of WHO WE KNOW.

I do not disagree on this maam, in fact that is scriptural, according to 2 Thes 1:8 knowing Gid is a requirement for salvation, but notice the second thing that is a requirement in that verse.

 

[Free]

Versions of the Bible have been altered to indicate that,

It is the NWT that has been altered, such as in Col 1:16:

16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

It used to have “other” in [ ] to acknowledge that it isn’t in the Greek, but now it seems that they really want people people to believe that that is what the Greek says. That is incredibly misleading and contradicts John 1:3 and 1 Cor 8:6 in the NWT. How long before they add to those verses as well? That is what happens when doctrine doesn’t come from the Bible.

but also note those same versions point out that if Jesus is God, he is a liar as well as stated by Mark 10:40 and 13:32.

Not at all. This is the main problem with the Watchtower view of Christ—they take verses which clearly show the humanity of Christ and use them to overrule those that clearly show his deity, even to the point that they alter the Bible. Phil 2:5-8, which completely affirms John 1:1-18, is absolutely key.

What hope do we have if God is a liar and confused about who he is?

The Watchtower has made God to be a liar by adding to the text of the Bible to make it say something it doesn’t.

Exactly! Jehovah's name is different in different languages Tenchi, you and I are speaking English therefore using Jehovah instead of YHWH

Yahweh would be a better English translation.

 

[Tenchi]

The word "worship" means to assign worth. So yes you are, if you think your wife is worth something.

This is the mistake of trying to understand a word primarily by its root meaning. I love my wife dearly, but I don't worship her in anything like the way I worship God. In arguing for your view, it seems to me you're actually diminishing worship of God, putting it on par with mere adoration of one's spouse. If you think there's a real parallel between the two, I wonder seriously about your worship of God.

 

[Tenchi]

Versions of the Bible have been altered to indicate that, but also note those same versions point out that if Jesus is God, he is a liar as well as stated by Mark 10:40 and 13:32. What hope do we have if God is a liar and confused about who he is?

I know of no modern, mainstream versions of the Bible that have mistranslated the verses I cited that say Jesus was God incarnate. The abundance of ancient NT manuscript copies (many thousands), compiled and compared, provide modern translators of the NT an incredible basis for very high translation accuracy. I can look at the ancient Greek versions of the NT myself and see that there is full translation fidelity to them in the study Bibles that I use. I cannot say the same for the NWT, however, which many Bible scholars/language experts have roundly rejected as a reliable translation of Scripture. If there is any translation of the Bible that has been manipulated to conform to doctrines external to it, it's the NWT.

Mark 10:36-45
36 And he said to them, “What do you want me to do for you?”
37 And they said to him, “Grant us to sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your glory.”
38 Jesus said to them, “You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?”
39 And they said to him, “We are able.” And Jesus said to them, “The cup that I drink you will drink, and with the baptism with which I am baptized, you will be baptized,
40 but to sit at my right hand or at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared.”
41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be indignant at James and John.
42 And Jesus called them to him and said to them, “You know that those who are considered rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
43 But it shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
44 and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all.
45 For even the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

Don't see how this passage makes Christ a liar...

Jesus says here to his disciples that he can't grant what they want because who sits where in glory has already been decided. What does this have to do with Jesus being the God-Man, though? As he pointed out to his disciples at the end of the passage above, he hadn't come to earth to establish greater and lesser in his kingdom, but to serve mankind by giving his life as a ransom for many (See: Philippians 2:5-8).

Mark 13:29-33
29 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
30 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.
32 “But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
33 Be on guard, keep awake. For you do not know when the time will come.

Do you know what the "Indiscernibility of Identicals" is? It's a law of logic (See: Liebniz) that states that truly identical things cannot have any variation between them. This is an important law in considering the Trinity, for it is very evident in Scripture that though the members of the Trinity share a common deity, an identical divine nature, they are not exactly the same being. In light of this, it is unremarkable that Jesus should not, in his incarnated form, divested of his heavenly glory, sent specifically to serve and enact the Father's will on earth, know and do exactly what the Father knows and does. They are not identical Persons, though they have an identical divine essence, or substance.

 

[D-D-W]

This is the mistake of trying to understand a word primarily by its root meaning.

Indeed. Which is why I go to the original language. In Hebrew, the word to worship means to bow the head or to prostrate one's self. (commonly done before kings)

Strictly in English, if you give your wife honor and praise, you worship her. But do you שָׁחָה her?? Probably not.

​

 

[GodsGrace]

... at first I thought "no" ... but I changed my mind. Yet, still seems awkward.
When I state God seeks His own interest and God says everything else is obligated to do the same ... they claim that is not true for it would make God selfish .

Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.

I just posted to Tenchi about this early this morning.

I changed my mind too!

The Trinity is all equal and all eternal.
Each Person is God.
God cannot worship Himself.

Agree?

 

[Fastfredy0]

The Trinity is all equal and all eternal.
Each Person is God.
God cannot worship Himself.

Agree?

Well, I was on the fence and then went to the dictionary for the definition of WORSHIP: Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity.
If the above is the definition one uses then each member of the Trinity definitely LOVES and is DEVOTED to the other two.
Usually, one would consider worship to be of a lesser power towards an greater power. If that's your definition then I don't see the members of the Trinity worshiping each other.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Maybe all 3 components of the trinity are simply in the ultimate state of never ending communion?

 

[Tenchi]

Indeed. Which is why I go to the original language. In Hebrew, the word to worship means to bow the head or to prostrate one's self. (commonly done before kings)

Strictly in English, if you give your wife honor and praise, you worship her. But do you שָׁחָה her?? Probably not.

Going to the original language doesn't guarantee you will properly understand a particular word, or phrase, in Scripture. Often, immediate context and common usage of the time are much better guides to meaning than etymology. Words change in their meaning over time in virtually every language. And the longer in use a word is, the farther from its root meaning it often moves.

In the matter of worship, I doubt very much the members of the Trinity prostrate themselves before one another, and there is nothing in God's word that indicates that they do. In any case, there has been only the thinnest scriptural ground offered for the idea that Christ worshiped God the Father (particularly in anything like the sense in which we do), so I feel little motivation to speak more on the subject.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Maybe all 3 components of the trinity are simply in the ultimate state of never ending communion?

No need for communion. They co-substantial, coeternal, and coequal. What one knows they all know and they (God) is immutable. There's no need to communicate; everything is already a 'done deal'. There's no contemplation and no exchange of ideas .... it's one God in three persons.
... and it's also a 'mystery' to some degree, so I don't know what I am talking about to a degree (giggle)

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, I was on the fence and then went to the dictionary for the definition of WORSHIP: Worship - The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity.
If the above is the definition one uses then each member of the Trinity definitely LOVES and is DEVOTED to the other two.
Usually, one would consider worship to be of a lesser power towards an greater power. If that's your definition then I don't see the members of the Trinity worshiping each other.

You can only worship a divine being, or a deity.
But worship has to come from a lesser being.

I was kind of hoping you'd just agree so I could stop thinking about this...

 

[GodsGrace]

Maybe all 3 components of the trinity are simply in the ultimate state of never ending communion?

This is 100% true.