God May Hate You

[Drew]

Fatalism, my friend. Zero soverenignty, it's all your responsibility, all is decided by fallen sinful man since God has to be given consent to save you.

I have never understood this argument - it seems to be based on the presumption that the mere act of freewill consent negates the fact that the work of salvation is accomplished by the act of Christ on the cross.

An analogy I have used in the past. A house is afire. A brave young man pounds on the locked door. An incapacitated old lady trapped in her bed inside the house presses the "open door" button by her bedside. The man rushes in, risks his own life, and carries the old lady to safety.

Who is to be given credit here? The young man, of course.

It is indeed true that the woman would not have been saved if she had not pressed that button. So it is indeed true that she had to give "consent" to be saved. But, and this is a critical point, this does not change the rather obvious fact that the heroic act of "salvation" is a work of the young man, not the old lady.

We can discuss whether fallen man is even able to hear God "knocking". Either way, it simply does not seem sensible to argue that a mere act of acceptance, whether done via freewill or via an instirring created by God, constitutes the full work of salvation.

 

[cyberjosh]

Zero soverenignty, it's all your responsibility, all is decided by fallen sinful man since God has to be given consent to save you.

Wrong, the process is cooperative because you don't reach the place of deciding until God first prompts your heart through conviction. Some he hasn't convicted at all yet because of their hard hearts. The sovereignty is quite absolute actually, and out of God's absolute sovereignty he allots control to be given to the individual for the final choice, but how you are drawn and when is at God's own bidding. If God knows you aren't ready yet for whatever reason he can postpone his movements.

Consider God's sovereignty in these verses:

"The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes." (Proverbs 21:1)

"This sentence is by the decree of the angelic watchers. And the decision is a command of the holy ones. In order that the living may know. That the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, And bestows it on whom He wishes, and sets over it the lowliest of men." (Daniel 4:17)

"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. " (Matthew 25:29)

God gives and takes as he pleases in accordance to how he judges our hearts.

 

[jgredline]

;-)

PS: The offer of Salvation the jg is talking about is built on the assumption of ability. The Bible tells us that "there is no God seeker." That means no one seeks God. God gives us commands that we can't keep, where is the ability in "love the Lord your God with all your heart?" I'm not able to do it, at least not all the time, and you're fooling yourself if you think you can.

JM
The Armenianist camp says that the Holy Spirit woooos people onto himself and is wooooing all people all the time because if the Holy Spirit does not woooo people to himself then you are right in your assessment because the bible does say that ''there is no God seeker''

The Calvinist camp will use Irresistible grace; meaning that when God chooses to save someone he will... or God is going to save whom he will save......

Truth be told, the truth is really in the middle.

Now let me go on a little bit further....
Is God wooooing or imputing his Irresistible grace on that native who lives on that Island in the middle of noware who has never heard of Jesus??

May I suggest YES.. He is doing ''both''
You see, God has also given us a mind and a conscience..
Lets look at Romans 1:18-21
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness(so here we have this calling from God who has revealed himself to all men), 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them (Their conscience), for God has shown it to them (look around). 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse (This world and universe came from someone), 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So God has revealed himself to all men through his creation.
The truth is truth about God. Having departed from godliness and righteousness, people suppress the truth about God: that God is their loving Creator and deserves their worship and praise. Sinful people can mentally perceive the revealed truth of God , but they have chosen to suppress it. They are without excuse. God's anger is being revealed (the present tense) against sin and the s uppression of the truth.

What may be known of God: Not only are divine attributes clearly seen in humanity, but they can be seen in the material universe as well. Nature itself speaks eloquently of its Creator. From the intricate design of the human cell to the majestic strength of the Rocky Mountains, all of God's works testify to His wisdom and power. God's invisible attributes, such as His eternal power and Godhead, meaning His divine nature, can be clearly seen by contemplating His awesome works in all of creation.Simply look around.

They knew, that is "perceived," truth about God through creation. Nature reveals God as great and good. Its gentle rain and rich soils provide humans with all varieties of delicious food. God is good. Even with all this evidence in creation, people refuse to recognize their Creator, worship Him, or glorify Him as God.

So there is no ''no excuse' for ''anyone'' not to receive the gift of eternal life offered through God, Jesus Christ himself....

So folks, call it what ever you want to call it, woooooing or Irresistible grace, the fact of the matter is that the choice comes down to us......

 

[JM]

Drew, I’m aware of your analogy. As I’ve posted before, all of your analogies begin with an assumption of ability, which you still haven't proven from the Bible. Analogies and illustrations only help explain what you believe and DO NOT prove what you believe. For your analogy to be accurate and Biblical, the old lady would have to be dead already with the person doing the rescuing bringing her back to life. The Bible tells us we are “dead in sin,†not sick in sin, but dead in sin. We know this isn’t physically dead but spiritually dead. In John 3 Christ tells us that we need to be born again to even see the Kingdom, the "natural man recieveth not the things of the Spirit," and the carnal mind is enmity/hostile against God. We are dead in sin and slaves to sin and until that work of regeneration is perform by God in the heart of a sinner, we remain dead in our sins.

CyberShark, did Jesus die for all (not just the elect) and then not supply a way for all to at least deny the Gospel? "Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6) Most of human kind has died without hearing the Gospel.

JG, the Holy Spirit doesn't woo everyone for not all have heard the Gospel...unless you believe folks can get saved without the Gospel. If what you wrote is true then God's plan is continent on man's response. God can do nothing UNLESS man first agrees.

This is my last post in this thread. Drew can testify that I've gone to bat for the Reformed faith many times, I just don't find much fruit in continuing this re-hash of old posts, or digging new trenches. I just wanted to give a case for the sinfulness of man and goodness of God. If anyone has questions please send me a pm.

Peace,

jm

 

[jgredline]

JG, the Holy Spirit doesn't woo everyone for not all have heard the Gospel...unless you believe folks can get saved without the Gospel. If what you wrote is true then God's plan is continent on man's response. God can do nothing UNLESS man first agrees.
jm

JM I too ''lean'' twords the reformed faith, however, this is one area where it is not right...

It is this kind of Calvinism that gives calvinism a bad name ''imo''

So this goes back to what I said....

The doctrine of election raises serious problems in the human mind, so we must consider more fully what the Bible does (and does not) teach on this subject.

First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47).

On the other hand, the Bible never teaches that God chooses men to be lost. The fact that He chooses some to be saved does not imply that He arbitrarily condemns all the rest. He never condemns men who deserve to be saved (there are none), but He does save some who ought to be condemned. When Paul describes the elect, he speaks of them as “vessels of mercy which He had prepared beforehand for glory†(Rom. 9:23); but when he turns to the lost, he simply says, “vessels of wrath prepared for destruction (Rom. 9:22). God prepares vessels of mercy to glory, but He does not prepare men for destruction: they do this for themselves by their own unbelief.

The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, although He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost. Does God have the right to show mercy to some?

But there is another side to the story. The same Bible that teaches sovereign election also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.

The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of Gods sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.

This poses a difficulty for the human mind. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? Frankly, this is a mystery. But the mystery is on our side, not on Gods. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and mans free will, but in both extremes.

 

[ChristineES]

The one who said that we cannot love God with all are hearts all the time isn't making logical sense to me.

An example to prove that we can would be my children: I love my children every moment of every day, even when I am angry when they misbehave, I love them. Just because I am not behaving behaving loving at one moment does not mean I do not have love for them.(like when I yell at them).

 

[ChristineES]

There is something else I have noted on this thread. The author of the thread has said nothing. In fact the person has not posted any where else, as he/she only has one thread listed.
I think that should tell us all something. Like said person may have posted it to start an argument. I don't know for sure, only person who started it can.

 

[jgredline]

Christine
I noticed that this morning and was thinking the same thing. The evil loves to start this argument.... I for one will not participate in this thread any longer. I have stated my postion in my simple little paper.....and thats it.

 

[unred typo]

Yup, looks like another 'post and run'. No guts. Who needs em? It's a good topic to get straightened out....

Jgredline wrote:
The doctrine of election raises serious problems in the human mind, so we must consider more fully what the Bible does (and does not) teach on this subject.
First, it teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thess. 1:47).

OK, let’s start at the beginning. You should go to 2 Thessalonians 2 and read it all in context. Let me put 12-14 here:

12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

First, when was the beginning? How about the beginning of the gospel? Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; Philippians 4:15
Now you Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but you only. You see there are other beginnings, besides the beginning of creation. The resurrection is a beginning. There is the beginning of the church. The beginning of the tribulation period. Doesn’t it make more sense to read that since the beginning of their hearing the gospel, they believed what they heard and because of this, God chose them to be saved and sanctified?


Through what means are they chosen to be saved? Through sanctification of the Spirit. How does that happen? 1 Thessalonians 4 tells us what it means in practical terms. Verse 2: For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Reading on to verse 7, For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despises, despises not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. But as touching brotherly love you need not that I write unto you: for you yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Do you see any mystery here? This is right down the straight and narrow. If you want to resist God, it’s your choice but I wouldn’t do that if I were you…
:o

 

[mutzrein]

Why is it difficult to accept the scriptures that Cre8 quotes? Why is it difficult to accept that God gives life to those whom he chooses - and not to others?

 

[cyberjosh]

Why is it difficult to accept the scriptures that Cre8 quotes? Why is it difficult to accept that God gives life to those whom he chooses - and not to others?

It is merely an elaboration, which Cre8 failed to notice, of under what circumstances God would ever hate you. God isn't a calvinist who says, "Hate you, love her, hate him, love him...". God loves everyone until they push God away so much that they reject him and live in sin, then God might hate you, or atleast the sin in you. Although I see an abundant lack of "hate" verses in the Bible, and rather verses like "God wishes that none would perish" (to paraphrase) and the like. Read my two posts on the previous page to see my view on God's love and the circumstances one would have to undergo (which is actually quite hard to do) before God would give up on you.

 

[Jon-Marc]

I looked up the word hate in the Bible and found 87 references to it. Out of all those I found 5 in reference to God hating. Psalm 101:3, Proverbs 6:16, Zec. 8:17, Rev. 2:6 and Rev. 2:15. In NONE of those does it say God hates anyone, but it is always SIN that He hates. God does NOT hate people; it's SIN He hates.

 

[Drew]

What about the following from Malachi from the NASB (which I believe that Paul also refers to in Romans):

The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi.
"I have loved you," says the LORD But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD "Yet I have loved Jacob; but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."

 

[mutzrein]

Yes exactly the scripture I was thinking of too Drew - and more than that a little later in the same chapter in Romans.

What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrathâ€â€prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory  even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[cyberjosh]

I quoted that Esau verse on the first page. Look there to see what I said concerning it.

 

[unred typo]

The saved elect are those, having lived their lives in patient continuance of doing good, who are born again, and invested themselves into their ‘spiritual man,’ following Christ and not the ‘carnal man’ living for his own selfish desires. The picture of Jacob and Esau is that of the conflict inside each person to live for God or the Flesh. God hates Esau in a symbolic way in that he rejects the selfish lusting person that considers his relationship to God of less worth than a can of beans. God hates you to act like that. You don’t have to act that way. You choose to.

If you spend your life being your own selfish pig, your carnal man is going to be an ugly obese gargantuan to be destroyed and your spiritual man is going to be a newborn baby, if you are even viable at all. You can spend eternity cooing and sucking your thumb. The full experience of flying to explore worlds unknown will be enjoyed by those who went on from milk to meat and grew into the full measure of the man/woman of God.

In the race, Paul says only one wins. Is the race against other believers? I think not. The race is against our own evil nature.
:angel: :robot:

 

[Oscar3]

Well, well, ''well'', What have we here. :-? Lets take a look.

The saved elect are those, having lived their lives in patient continuance of doing good (IN OTHER WORDS ''WORKS'', SINCE GRACE ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH), who are born again (YES, THIS IS TRUE) and invested themselves into their ‘spiritual man,’ (AGAIN, WE ARE BACK TO WORKS), following Christ and not the ‘carnal man’ living for his own selfish desires (YES ANOTHER TRUTH).The picture of Jacob and Esau is that of the conflict inside each person to live for God or the Flesh. God hates Esau in a symbolic way in that he rejects the selfish lusting person that considers his relationship to God of less worth than a can of beans. God hates you to act like that. You don’t have to act that way. You choose to.(YES, I buy this)

If you spend your life being your own selfish pig, your carnal man is going to be an ugly obese gargantuan to be destroyed and your spiritual man is going to be a newborn baby, if you are even viable at all. You can spend eternity cooing and sucking your thumb. The full experience of flying to explore worlds unknown will be enjoyed by those who went on from milk to meat and grew into the full measure of the man/woman of God. (YES, THIS IS ALSO TRUE, BUT THE PERSON ON MILK WILL STILL BE IN HEAVEN AS OPPOSED TO HELL BURNING FOR EVER AND EVER)
In the race, Paul says only one wins. Is the race against other believers? I think not. The race is against our own evil nature. (ONCE WE ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR WE HAVE ALREADY WON THE RACE BY GODS RADICAL GRACE. WORKS AS YOU TEACH WILL NOT GET US IN.)
:angel: :robot:

Salvation is by Grace through faith alone to ''anyone'' who will accept Jesus christ as Lord and Savior'' period. Works will not do it for they are like a dirty rag to God.

 

[unred typo]

oscar3 wrote:
(ONCE WE ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR WE HAVE ALREADY WON THE RACE BY GODS RADICAL GRACE. WORKS AS YOU TEACH WILL NOT GET US IN.)

That’s not what Paul said:
Philippians 3:11-14
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


oscar3 wrote:
Salvation is by Grace through faith alone to ''anyone'' who will accept Jesus christ as Lord and Savior'' period. Works will not do it for they are like a dirty rag to God.â€Â

One of my pet peeves. You have been brain washed to believe a lie. All our righteousness is not filthy rags to God. If you read the entire chapter and the next, you will see that in Isaiah 65 - 66, God is condemning a specific group of Israelites who have forsaken their God for idols and still pretend to be worshipping him alone:

9And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
10And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
11But you are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
2I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walks in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3A people that provokes me to anger continually to my face; that sacrifices in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; (possibly human sacrifice, their own children)
4Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all the day.

As you can see, these were not only evil and rebellious but they were hypocrites as well. Does it say anywhere in these 2-3 chapters that God has never accepted any of man’s works and that man can do absolutely nothing to please him? Rubbish. He does say this though:

Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: (IOW, he doesn‘t need anything from us) but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.
1 Peter 3:3-5
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

To be continued…
:wink:

 

[Oscar3]

oscar3 wrote:
(ONCE WE ACCEPTED JESUS CHRIST AS OUR SAVIOUR WE HAVE ALREADY WON THE RACE BY GODS RADICAL GRACE. WORKS AS YOU TEACH WILL NOT GET US IN.)

That’s not what Paul said:
Philippians 3:11-14
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


oscar3 wrote:
Salvation is by Grace through faith alone to ''anyone'' who will accept Jesus christ as Lord and Savior'' period. Works will not do it for they are like a dirty rag to God.â€Â

One of my pet peeves. You have been brain washed to believe a lie. All our righteousness is not filthy rags to God. If you read the entire chapter and the next, you will see that in Isaiah 65 - 66, God is condemning a specific group of Israelites who have forsaken their God for idols and still pretend to be worshipping him alone:

9And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.
10And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me.
11But you are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.
2I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walks in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts;
3A people that provokes me to anger continually to my face; that sacrifices in gardens, and burns incense upon altars of brick; (possibly human sacrifice, their own children)
4Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels;
5Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burns all the day.

As you can see, these were not only evil and rebellious but they were hypocrites as well. Does it say anywhere in these 2-3 chapters that God has never accepted any of man’s works and that man can do absolutely nothing to please him? Rubbish. He does say this though:

Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, says the LORD: (IOW, he doesn‘t need anything from us) but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembles at my word.
1 Peter 3:3-5
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

To be continued…
:wink:

Well, Thats your interpretation.
I also noticed that you did not deny works.

 

[unred typo]

oscar3 wrote:
Well, Thats your interpretation.
I also noticed that you did not deny works.

It seemed off topic. I have been discussing this with Dave… in the thread entitled, Justification: Why works are a stumbling block for some. If you drop in about page 9, you’ll get most of the points we covered about works:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... &start=120

I will talk about works in the context of God hating you, however.

In your critique of my statement, (your words in CAPS) below:
The saved elect are those, having lived their lives in patient continuance of doing good (IN OTHER WORDS ''WORKS'', SINCE GRACE ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH), who are born again (YES, THIS IS TRUE) and invested themselves into their ‘spiritual man,’ (AGAIN, WE ARE BACK TO WORKS), following Christ and not the ‘carnal man’ living for his own selfish desires (YES ANOTHER TRUTH).
You find a problem with my saying; “patient continuance of doing good,†which is a direct quote from Romans 2:7 where you see that God will reward according to works: eternal life to those who continue in doing good and wrath to those who are contentious and don‘t obey. God loves, or treats with love, those who obey him. The works that God hates are works of the law done in hypocrisy and pride, in an attempt to get around what he commands us to do. The commands of Christ are all about love, faith, mercy, humility and truth, IOW, ‘doing good.’

God doesn’t hate the person who disobeys, he hates the disobedience. If the same one who disobeys repents and obeys, he will treat that same person with the same love that he has shown to the ‘objects of his love’ who have been walking in obedience.

There are several misunderstandings in the verses about God’s hate, his chosen people and who he loves.
The purpose of election is not for salvation. (It was never about salvation.) God has elected many people for many different assignments. The Israelites were God’s chosen people, but when they rebelled, they became objects of wrath. He always saved a remnant even though they probably deserved to be wiped out several times in their sordid history. Why did he favor them so? Because of the promise to Abraham, that from his bloodline the savior of the world would come.

That was the purpose of the election, and it was not of works or righteousness that they had done but according to his mercy and the faith of their ancestor, Abraham, that they were not destroyed. He didn’t love them best but he treated them as objects of love so a remnant would remain to bring the Lord through their line. God didn’t hate Esau as a man but he showed favor to Jacob because he was the chosen blood line to Christ, and he was chosen before he was born, probably because of traits that God could see in his genes that God wanted for his Son‘s earthy body. In Romans 9 Paul is trying to say the Jews were not chosen because they were more righteous than others. Maybe Jesus was the perfect physical clone of Abraham or Adam, who knows?

The misunderstanding of those verses has spawned many false doctrines.

:robot: