God No One Has Seen At Any Time

[SolaScriptura]

You don't even have that because punctuation is subjective. Here's the correct translation of Romans 9:5 proving that Jesus isn't God.

Romans 9 (RSV)
5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.

why choose the RSV? because it agrees with you?

This is how the Original Greek reads

"ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων επι παντων θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας αμην"

Literally in English, with no punctuation, which was added centuries later

"whose the patriarchs and from whom the Christ according to the flesh Who eternally is over all God Blessed forever Amen"

see how many translations agree with the RSV, https://biblehub.com/parallel/romans/9-5.htm

Even the NEW RSV reads in the actual text

"to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen"

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses, who agree with your "Christology", punctuate to make the reference of GOD to Jesus Christ!

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/kingdom-interlinear-greek-translation/books/romans/9/

In another of the New Testament publications, the Emphatic Diaglott, it reads;

"whose are the FATHERS, and from whom is THAT ANOINTED one, according to the flesh; HE who is over all, God blessed to the AGES. Amen"

Even in Isaiah 9:6, the JWs call Jesus Christ "Mighty God"; as they do for the Father in 10:21!

Praise our GREAT GOD Jesus Christ!

 

[Randy]

Jesus is a resurrected man, consisting of flesh, who was taken to heaven. No such talk about him losing his body in the Bible. After being taken to heaven, they kept saying he is the "Son of man" at the right hand of God. Son of man is used in reference to being a human in scripture, see Job 25:6 for an example.

The Son of man (a human) at the right hand of God:
Psalm 110:1
Matthew 26:64
Mark 14:62
Acts 7:56
etc...

Besides, in Revelation 7 it's perfectly clear that God on the throne is not the Lamb Jesus. Do you believe these words?

Revelation 7​

9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:​

​

“Salvation to our God,​

who sits on the throne,​

and to the Lamb!”​

Its God Himself who glorifies His Son. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. I'm not going to distance myself from my Lord who does have a place on His Fathers throne. ALL things have been placed in His hands and all that belongs to the Father is His as well.​

"And to the Lamb"​

“Salvation to our God,​

who sits on the throne,​

and to the Lamb!”​

 

[SolaScriptura]

Its God Himself who glorifies His Son. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. I'm not going to distance myself from my Lord who does have a place on His Fathers throne. ALL things have been placed in His hands and all that belongs to the Father is His as well.​

"And to the Lamb"​

“Salvation to our God,​

who sits on the throne,​

and to the Lamb!”​

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH

 

[Runningman]

Its God Himself who glorifies His Son. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son. I'm not going to distance myself from my Lord who does have a place on His Fathers throne. ALL things have been placed in His hands and all that belongs to the Father is His as well.​

"And to the Lamb"​

“Salvation to our God,​

who sits on the throne,​

and to the Lamb!”​

Salvation to God on the throne
and
to the Lamb.

This is simple. Jesus isn't God and that's okay because that's just how it is.

See why John 17:3 says knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ is eternal life now?

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH

That would be required in order to keep the Trinity doctrine alive, but actually YHWH is demonstrably not Jesus. YHWH is the Father. There are no other God's but Him. That's what we believe. He is our God, the true God, the only God. He told His Son Jesus to sit at His right hand.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD,[YHWH] and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

Isaiah 64
8But now, O LORD,[YHWH] You are our Father;
we are the clay, and You are the potter;
we are all the work of Your hand.

Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

 

[Runningman]

why choose the RSV? because it agrees with you?

I use it because it agrees with the Bible.

This is how the Original Greek reads

"ων οι πατερες και εξ ων ο χριστος το κατα σαρκα ο ων επι παντων θεος ευλογητος εις τους αιωνας αμην"

Literally in English, with no punctuation, which was added centuries later

"whose the patriarchs and from whom the Christ according to the flesh Who eternally is over all God Blessed forever Amen"

see how many translations agree with the RSV, https://biblehub.com/parallel/romans/9-5.htm

Even the NEW RSV reads in the actual text

"to them belong the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, comes the Christ, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen"

Even the Jehovah's Witnesses, who agree with your "Christology", punctuate to make the reference of GOD to Jesus Christ!

https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/kingdom-interlinear-greek-translation/books/romans/9/

In another of the New Testament publications, the Emphatic Diaglott, it reads;

"whose are the FATHERS, and from whom is THAT ANOINTED one, according to the flesh; HE who is over all, God blessed to the AGES. Amen"

Even in Isaiah 9:6, the JWs call Jesus Christ "Mighty God"; as they do for the Father in 10:21!

Praise our GREAT GOD Jesus Christ!

All good translations will be supported by the general context of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Since Jesus isn't God, I find that the RSV contains one of the best translations for Romans 9:5.

Trinitarian commentator R.S. Franks is a man of standing and authority; he disagrees with you:

"It should be added that Rom. 9:5 cannot be adduced to prove that Paul ever thought of Christ as God. The state of the case is found in the R.V. margin…He [Paul] never leaves the ground of Jewish monotheism. It has been pointed out that Rom. 9:5 cannot be brought in to question this statement. On the contrary, God is spoken of by the Apostle as not only the Father, but also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ”

 

[JLB]

If the foundation is weak, the tower falls.

Let's take a look at your foundation. Beginning at Hebrews 1:8, it is actually a quote from Psalm 45:6 where in the context of Psalm 45, it's actually talking about a human king. In this chapter you can read about the king having a queen who was apparently a foreigner, she wears gold jewelry, and the king sought after her beauty.

For starters, I think this should go without saying, but it isn't scripture to say Lord God Almighty has a queen nor does His son Jesus. Psalm 45:6 was appropriated into Hebrews 1:8, therefore it doesn't transfer that the author of Hebrews was trying to say Jesus is God Almighty, but rather a god, because Psalm 45 isn't trying to say the king with the queen is God, but a god.

The proof is all in the context. Keep reading to verse 9 where it says of the Son he is being anointed above his companions by God Himself. God doesn't have companions to be anointed above since He is already above all. Therefore, Jesus has already been shown to not actually be the supreme Lord God Almighty, but a demonstrably lesser, subordinate, and subservient being to God Himself.

Therefore, Hebrews 1:10 says the creator is YHWH, the Father, God Himself when in the context the Son absolutely cannot be a creator. All of this makes the Son being YHWH a Biblical impossibility in a Trinitarian's perspective because the Son is not the Father. The Father is YHWH. He is the only true God.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD,[YHWH] and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

Yes, Jesus Christ the Son spoke through the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

 

[GodsGrace]

Utter RUBBISH!!!

In verse 5 we read, "there was a man sent from God", where the Greek is, "παρὰ Θεοῦ", there is NO Greek article used here, should this read, "there was a man sent from a god"? If not, then WHY not? WHY have one rule when it refers to Jesus Christ, and another for the Father?

You are trying to FORCE what the Bible does NOT teach!

As I have said, your own response here is CLEAR, that you know ZERO about Greek grammar!

STATEMENTS SUCH AS " UTTER RUBBISH " AND "YOUR OWN NONSENSE" ARE NOT ALLOWED ON OUR SITE.

PLEASE RESPECT EACH OTHER'S BELIEF.
ADDRESS THE TOPIC AND DO NOT INSULT OTHER MEMBERS.

DO NOT REPLY TO THIS POST IN THIS THREAD.
USE TALK WITH STAFF IF NECESSARY.

Runningman

 

[Randy]

Jesus Christ is YHWH. The Father is YHWH. The Holy Spirit is YHWH

Jesus is not my Heavenly Father. He is my Lord. In Him does dwell all the fullness of God the Father and they are one. Jesus is all that the Father is.

One God the Father; One Lord Jesus Christ

 

[Randy]

Salvation to God on the throne
and
to the Lamb.

This is simple. Jesus isn't God and that's okay because that's just how it is.

See why John 17:3 says knowing the Father, the only true God, and Jesus Christ is eternal life now?

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

The eternal life found in Jesus is the Father.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus is not my Heavenly Father. He is my Lord. In Him does dwell all the fullness of God the Father and they are one. Jesus is all that the Father is.

One God the Father; One Lord Jesus Christ

Jesus Christ is not simply "Lord", but YHWH, Eternally Almighty God, as are the Father and Holy Spirit, in One Divine Nature.

 

[Randy]

Jesus Christ is not simply "Lord", but YHWH, Eternally Almighty God, as are the Father and Holy Spirit, in One Divine Nature.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Deity that was pleased to dwell in the Son is the Father not His own. Col 1:19 - From the will of another. One who defined Jesus's being. The one Jesus calls Father.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The Deity that was pleased to dwell in the Son is the Father not His own. Col 1:19 - From the will of another. One who defined Jesus's being. The one Jesus calls Father.

Firstly, Colossian 1:19 does not read as you assume it does!

This is the literal Greek, "ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

And this is the literal translation in English

"because in Him it was content all the fullness to permanently dwell"

What is meant here, is seen from the following chapter, where Paul says

" For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (verse 9)

Here we have the Greek θεότης, of which the Unitarian Greek scholar, J Thayer, says in his Greek Lexicon, "deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead"

No doubt one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, that Jesus Christ is Almighty God!

In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to Jesus Christ;

"ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος", "Your Throne O God is for ever and ever"

It is an address by the Father to Jesus Christ, where He calls Him GOD. In verse 6, the Father Commands that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPED. In verses 1-12, the Father addresses Jesus Christ as The Actual Creator of the entire Universe!

 

[Runningman]

"ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος", "Your Throne O God is for ever and ever"

It is an address by the Father to Jesus Christ, where He calls Him GOD. In verse 6, the Father Commands that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPED. In verses 1-12, the Father addresses Jesus Christ as The Actual Creator of the entire Universe!

Hebrews 1:8 is about a god, not God. What follows in Hebrews 1:9 is God anointing someone lesser than Himself. Jesus Christ isn't the creator of the universe according to the Bible. Hebrews 1:10 says it was YHWH, referring to the God who anointed the son in verse 9.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, Jesus Christ the Son spoke through the prophets.

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

It's interesting that you seem to quote the KJV 99% of the time, but when it comes to 1 Peter 1:10-11, you quote a different version that contains "who" when the KJV doesn't. Do you do that because you believe that quoting a single verse helps bolster your belief that Jesus was a pre-existent being and in quoting a fringe translation helps?

Well, the word "who" isn't even in the Greek of 1 Peter 1:10-11. The other versions represent the "Spirit of Christ" as an it. They call it a "which" not a "who." That's because Christ isn't Jesus' name, but rather literally means an anointing. The Christ anointing is the Messiah anointing and it's easy to conflate that with Jesus, but the messiah anointing was already on the prophets and priests in the Old Testament and being "in Christ" means being in this anointing.

 

[Randy]

Firstly, Colossian 1:19 does not read as you assume it does!

This is the literal Greek, "ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ εὐδόκησεν πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα κατοικῆσαι"

And this is the literal translation in English

"because in Him it was content all the fullness to permanently dwell"

What is meant here, is seen from the following chapter, where Paul says

" For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (verse 9)

Here we have the Greek θεότης, of which the Unitarian Greek scholar, J Thayer, says in his Greek Lexicon, "deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead"

No doubt one of the strongest Testimonies in the Bible, that Jesus Christ is Almighty God!

In Hebrews 1:8, God the Father says to Jesus Christ;

"ο θρονος σου ο θεος εις τον αιωνα του αιωνος", "Your Throne O God is for ever and ever"

It is an address by the Father to Jesus Christ, where He calls Him GOD. In verse 6, the Father Commands that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPED. In verses 1-12, the Father addresses Jesus Christ as The Actual Creator of the entire Universe!

"Was pleased" is correct- from the will of another. One who defined His being.
It is so greatly implied who that other is vs 20 The one who reconciled to "Himself" (one person) through the blood of Jesus on the cross. Jesus has always been the Son.

Teams of scholars captured the correct and truthful meaning
Colossians 1:19-20 New International Version 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Feel free to ask as He knows who He is.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hebrews 1:8 is about a god, not God. What follows in Hebrews 1:9 is God anointing someone lesser than Himself. Jesus Christ isn't the creator of the universe according to the Bible. Hebrews 1:10 says it was YHWH, referring to the God who anointed the son in verse 9.

Hebrews 1:8-9 is quoted from Psalm 45:6-7

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions"

I don't know of a single Version of the Bible, that would translate the Hebrew here, "’ĕ·lō·hîm", as "a god"!

The Jewish Targum for this reads;

"The Throne of Your Glory, O YHWH lasts forever and ever; the Scepter of Your Kingdom is an upright Scepter"

Clearly this refers to Almighty God, and God the Father addressed these words to God the Son in Hebrews!

In Psalm 45:11, it goes on to say,

"So the King will greatly desire your beauty; Because He is your Lord (Hebrew, "ʼâdôwn"), Worship Him"

This is the SAME root Hebrew word for LORD as used in Psalm 110:1, "Yahweh said to ʼâdôwn"

Without any doubt, Jesus Christ is YHWH!

Hebrews 1:10-12 is also addressed to Jesus Christ by the Father, also as YHWH, THE CREATOR of the entire Universe. Again quoted from Psalm 102:24-27!

 

[SolaScriptura]

"Was pleased" is correct- from the will of another. One who defined His being.
It is so greatly implied who that other is vs 20 The one who reconciled to "Himself" (one person) through the blood of Jesus on the cross. Jesus has always been the Son.

Teams of scholars captured the correct and truthful meaning
Colossians 1:19-20 New International Version 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Feel free to ask as He knows who He is.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

what about Colossians 2:9? 100% Testimony that Jesus Christ is ALMIGHTY GOD!

What about Colossians 2:2? "τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ", literally, "The Mystery of the God Christ".

Note the Greek definite article used here, "τοῦ θεοῦ", which CANNOT be translated as "a god"!

These are CLEAR Testimonies to the ABSOLUTE DEITY of Jesus Christ, that He IS ALMIGHTY GOD, YHWH, THE GREAT I AM!

I am not interested any what "interpretations" are added to Colossians 1:19, the Greek does NOT have GOD or FATHER anywhere in this verse!

 

[Randy]

what about Colossians 2:9? 100% Testimony that Jesus Christ is ALMIGHTY GOD!

What about Colossians 2:2? "τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ θεοῦ Χριστοῦ", literally, "The Mystery of the God Christ".

Note the Greek definite article used here, "τοῦ θεοῦ", which CANNOT be translated as "a god"!

These are CLEAR Testimonies to the ABSOLUTE DEITY of Jesus Christ, that He IS ALMIGHTY GOD, YHWH, THE GREAT I AM!

I am not interested any what "interpretations" are added to Colossians 1:19, the Greek does NOT have GOD or FATHER anywhere in this verse!

I believe in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity but that is the Fathers Deity not His own.
The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are one.

God is our Heavenly Father. Jesus is our Lord.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I believe in Him dwells all the fullness of the Deity but that is the Fathers Deity not His own.
The Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father they are one.

God is our Heavenly Father. Jesus is our Lord.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

It does NOT say anywhere in the entire Bible that the Father's Deity dwells in Jesus Christ. Show any Scripture that says that!

Colossians 2.9 says that it is Jesus Christs own Deity that He is Almighty God

It is your theology about Jesus Christ that does not allow you to accept this Great Bible TRUTH