God No One Has Seen At Any Time

[JLB]

Here we have Jesus Christ as The Creator of the entire Universe

Amen sir.

 

[Runningman]

k,
look around.
o,
won't do any good tho....
the deceived either don't realize how great is their own deception,
or they are unwilling to seek truth....
or both,
and continue unwilling to admit being deceived fully.

Oh the irony. Care to try your hand at at attempting to enlighten all of those poorly deceived people or are you just venting?

 

[Runningman]

What about John 1:3

The "word" isn't a he but an it throughout 99% of the New Testament and all of the Old Testament. There is scarcely a direct reference to the "word" being a he, aside from John 1. This makes John 1 anomalous.

The "word" is demonstrably not Jesus where Jesus and the word are talked about in the same context. See 1 John 1:1-3. Revelation 1:2, 9, Revelation 20:4.

The word we are talking about is the Greek word logos and it's used throughout the New Testament and Septuagint. Logos doesn't mean Jesus or God or Son, etc. It refers to words, speaking, etc. Words aren't a literal person. This is called personification of a non-person thing. For example, a non-person thing like wisdom isn't a literal woman, contrary to what Proverbs 8 & 9 say.

This is why 1 John 1:1-3 says that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that manifested in a man. That means Jesus isn't literally the word of God, but rather the word of God was in him. The pre-existence of Jesus was in the foreknowledge of God, hence the "word" became flesh.

Furthermore, John demonstrably didn't even believe Jesus is God along with the rest of the disciples. In Acts 4:23-27, John and Peter prayed together to the Sovereign Lord, the Father, while referring to Jesus as His servant.

The Greek words of John 1:1 support the word being either a god or something godly in contradistinction to the definitive God also referenced in the same verse.

Jesus as a pre-existent being known as "God the Word" isn't a biblically viable doctrine. Trinitarians tried to bamboozle us many years ago, but they were caught red handed. One of the most famous forgeries of the New Testament, known as the Comma Johanneum, found in what was previously 1 John 5:7 has been removed from mostly all modern Bibles.

That means Jesus isn't the creator. Besides, John 1:3 says "through" not "by" the word all things were made.

 

[Runningman]

What about John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, and Colossians 1:15-18?

Hebrews 1:2 isn't about about Jesus being the creator either.

God spoke in the past through the prophets, not the Son, therefore when the universe was created in the past God wasn't speaking through the Son. God spoke through the Son in these "last days" referring to a particular age or cycle of time, i.e., we are in the latter days right now. In these last days, God spoke through the Son to create the ages. The word for "universe" isn't the same word for the world that was created in John 1:3. This means Jesus isn't the creator, but rather the instrument through which God spoke to create this age, the church age. Proof is in the pudding, the universe wasn't created in the last days.

Here is accurate translation of Hebrews 1:2

1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

 

[Runningman]

What about John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, and Colossians 1:15-18?

Colossians 1:15-20 is in the same vein as all of the other examples.

Beginning with verse 15, the "image of the invisible God" is already clearly not God Himself.

Verse 16 says all things were created "through" him which once again means he isn't the creator, but rather the instrument.

The "all things" on earth or in heaven were not reconciled until after Jesus was born and bled on his cross. What happened when Jesus bled on the cross? The New Covenant was ratified. Colossians 1:15-20 are not about Jesus being the creator, but about the spiritual framework for the Church of the New Covenant being established in heaven in earth, by God who used His servant Jesus.

Colossians 1
20and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace by the blood of His cross through Him, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, we all know that YHWH is the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

What you are in denial of, is Jesus is YHWH, as we so plainly see that the Son...
in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

To the Son - You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


We know the Son laid the foundation of the earth, because He spoke through the mouth of the prophets, proclaiming that very thing in Zechariah.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, (Christ) who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1


As the LORD Jesus Christ goes on to say through Zechariah -


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10


Jesus Christ spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

Jesus Christ created all things in heaven and earth.

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16


Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH the LORD God Almighty, to the glory of God the Father!







JLB

If the foundation is weak, the tower falls.

Let's take a look at your foundation. Beginning at Hebrews 1:8, it is actually a quote from Psalm 45:6 where in the context of Psalm 45, it's actually talking about a human king. In this chapter you can read about the king having a queen who was apparently a foreigner, she wears gold jewelry, and the king sought after her beauty.

For starters, I think this should go without saying, but it isn't scripture to say Lord God Almighty has a queen nor does His son Jesus. Psalm 45:6 was appropriated into Hebrews 1:8, therefore it doesn't transfer that the author of Hebrews was trying to say Jesus is God Almighty, but rather a god, because Psalm 45 isn't trying to say the king with the queen is God, but a god.

The proof is all in the context. Keep reading to verse 9 where it says of the Son he is being anointed above his companions by God Himself. God doesn't have companions to be anointed above since He is already above all. Therefore, Jesus has already been shown to not actually be the supreme Lord God Almighty, but a demonstrably lesser, subordinate, and subservient being to God Himself.

Therefore, Hebrews 1:10 says the creator is YHWH, the Father, God Himself when in the context the Son absolutely cannot be a creator. All of this makes the Son being YHWH a Biblical impossibility in a Trinitarian's perspective because the Son is not the Father. The Father is YHWH. He is the only true God.

Isaiah 45
5I am the LORD,[YHWH] and there is no other;
there is no God but Me.
I will equip you for battle,
though you have not known Me,

Isaiah 64
8But now, O LORD,[YHWH] You are our Father;
we are the clay, and You are the potter;
we are all the work of Your hand.

Psalm 110
1The LORD[YHWH] said to my Lord:[Jesus]
“Sit at My right hand
until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”

 

[SolaScriptura]

The "word" isn't a he but an it throughout 99% of the New Testament and all of the Old Testament. There is scarcely a direct reference to the "word" being a he, aside from John 1. This makes John 1 anomalous.

The "word" is demonstrably not Jesus where Jesus and the word are talked about in the same context. See 1 John 1:1-3. Revelation 1:2, 9, Revelation 20:4.

The word we are talking about is the Greek word logos and it's used throughout the New Testament and Septuagint. Logos doesn't mean Jesus or God or Son, etc. It refers to words, speaking, etc. Words aren't a literal person. This is called personification of a non-person thing. For example, a non-person thing like wisdom isn't a literal woman, contrary to what Proverbs 8 & 9 say.

This is why 1 John 1:1-3 says that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that manifested in a man. That means Jesus isn't literally the word of God, but rather the word of God was in him. The pre-existence of Jesus was in the foreknowledge of God, hence the "word" became flesh.

Furthermore, John demonstrably didn't even believe Jesus is God along with the rest of the disciples. In Acts 4:23-27, John and Peter prayed together to the Sovereign Lord, the Father, while referring to Jesus as His servant.

The Greek words of John 1:1 support the word being either a god or something godly in contradistinction to the definitive God also referenced in the same verse.

Jesus as a pre-existent being known as "God the Word" isn't a biblically viable doctrine. Trinitarians tried to bamboozle us many years ago, but they were caught red handed. One of the most famous forgeries of the New Testament, known as the Comma Johanneum, found in what was previously 1 John 5:7 has been removed from mostly all modern Bibles.

That means Jesus isn't the creator. Besides, John 1:3 says "through" not "by" the word all things were made.

The very verses that you quote, are very clear, that "The Word", is indeed a PERSON, The Lord Jesus Christ!

John 1:1 says that The Word is ETERNAL and has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH God the Father, and is HIMSELF GOD. In verse 14, we are told that THIS SAME WORD, BECAME FLESH, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifested in the flesh" This is all very PERSONAL.

1 John 1:1-3 is also very clear, that THE WORD is indeed the PERSON JESUS CHRIST. This is also very clear from Revelation 19:13 could not be any clearer, "and His Name is the Word of God", HIS NAME is PERSONAL, and He, Jesus Christ, is THE WORD OF GOD.

The Bible is AGAINST what you believe! You must change, as the Bible cannot!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hebrews 1:2 isn't about about Jesus being the creator either.

God spoke in the past through the prophets, not the Son, therefore when the universe was created in the past God wasn't speaking through the Son. God spoke through the Son in these "last days" referring to a particular age or cycle of time, i.e., we are in the latter days right now. In these last days, God spoke through the Son to create the ages. The word for "universe" isn't the same word for the world that was created in John 1:3. This means Jesus isn't the creator, but rather the instrument through which God spoke to create this age, the church age. Proof is in the pudding, the universe wasn't created in the last days.

Here is accurate translation of Hebrews 1:2

1God, having spoken long ago to our fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the ages,

Explain HOW Jesus Christ is the "Instrument through Whom God Created". HOW does this agree with Genesis 1:1, where it is very clear, that GOD CREATED, nothing about THROUGH anyone! I don't see this taught ANYWHERE in the entire Bible, that God the Father Created THROUGH?

I will ask this again, Hebrews 2:10 reads literally, "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things". the second use of the Greek διά, is used with the genitive, as in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, for Jesus Christ. WHO Created THROUGH God the Father, as Hebrews 2:10 very clearly Teaches?

There is no escape from this FACT, that we have the EXACT SAME Greek preposition, used with the EXACT SAME Greek case, in John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, and Hebrews 2:10. Their meanings are also THE EXACT SAME!

We can also add Romans 11:36, which reads literally from the Greek, "For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen". Note here, THROUGH Him, as in Hebrews 2:10. Again I ask, WHO Created THROUGH God the Father? It is Jesus Christ!

You can try all you like, but you will NEVER be able to argue against what the actual Greek says in these passages! These prove you 100% WRONG!

I challenge you to prove that I am wrong!

 

[Runningman]

Explain HOW Jesus Christ is the "Instrument through Whom God Created". HOW does this agree with Genesis 1:1, where it is very clear, that GOD CREATED, nothing about THROUGH anyone! I don't see this taught ANYWHERE in the entire Bible, that God the Father Created THROUGH?

Hebrews 1:2 has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1. God created through Jesus because that’s what the Bible says, but also the examples of these creations didn’t occur until after Jesus was born, in these last days.

What did Gos do exactly?

God have Jesus all of the teachings, words, miracle power, anointing, authority, etc to do what he needed to do to create the church, amass followers, make disciples, give proof, etc. This is all over the gospels and Acts.

I will ask this again, Hebrews 2:10 reads literally, "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things". the second use of the Greek διά, is used with the genitive, as in John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, for Jesus Christ. WHO Created THROUGH God the Father, as Hebrews 2:10 very clearly Teaches?

Did you read Hebrews 2:10v it says Jesus needed to be perfected, but God is already perfect. That means Jesus isn’t God.

Hebrews 2
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

There is no escape from this FACT, that we have the EXACT SAME Greek preposition, used with the EXACT SAME Greek case, in John 1:3, Hebrews 1:2, and Hebrews 2:10. Their meanings are also THE EXACT SAME!

Compare John 1:10 to Hebrews 1:2. The world made in John 1:10 isn’t the same world made in Hebrews 1:2. Hebrews 1:2 isn’t even about making a world or universe.

We can also add Romans 11:36, which reads literally from the Greek, "For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen". Note here, THROUGH Him, as in Hebrews 2:10. Again I ask, WHO Created THROUGH God the Father? It is Jesus Christ!

Romans 11:36 isn’t about Jesus. All things didn’t come from Jesus, but rather the Father according to 1 Corinthians 8:6. For us there is one God, the Father.

You can try all you like, but you will NEVER be able to argue against what the actual Greek says in these passages! These prove you 100% WRONG!

Did you actually read the verses you quoted and the Greek? The word through in them is defined as something acting as a channel, I.e., an instrument. You’re actually supporting my point, doing all the homework for me by quoting those passages.

I challenge you to prove that I am wrong!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hebrews 1:2 has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1. God created through Jesus because that’s what the Bible says, but also the examples of these creations didn’t occur until after Jesus was born, in these last days.

What did Gos do exactly?

God have Jesus all of the teachings, words, miracle power, anointing, authority, etc to do what he needed to do to create the church, amass followers, make disciples, give proof, etc. This is all over the gospels and Acts.

Did you read Hebrews 2:10v it says Jesus needed to be perfected, but God is already perfect. That means Jesus isn’t God.

Hebrews 2
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Compare John 1:10 to Hebrews 1:2. The world made in John 1:10 isn’t the same world made in Hebrews 1:2. Hebrews 1:2 isn’t even about making a world or universe.


Romans 11:36 isn’t about Jesus. All things didn’t come from Jesus, but rather the Father according to 1 Corinthians 8:6. For us there is one God, the Father.

Did you actually read the verses you quoted and the Greek? The word through in them is defined as something acting as a channel, I.e., an instrument. You’re actually supporting my point, doing all the homework for me by quoting those passages.

HOW does the Father Create THROUGH Jesus Christ?

WHY would the Father, Who, according to YOU, is the only God, Create THROUGH a Created Person, Jesus Christ?

You can NEVER disprove what Hebrews 2:10 says, that Jesus Christ Created THROUGH God the Father, as there is NO OTHER explanation for the use of the genitive THROUGH!

Your own answers show that you know ZERO Greek!

Genesis 1:1 says that GOD CREATED. Can you show WHERE it says THROUGH?

 

[Runningman]

The very verses that you quote, are very clear, that "The Word", is indeed a PERSON, The Lord Jesus Christ!

John 1:1 says that The Word is ETERNAL and has ALWAYS EXISTED WITH God the Father, and is HIMSELF GOD. In verse 14, we are told that THIS SAME WORD, BECAME FLESH, as Paul says in 1 Timothy 3:16, "God was manifested in the flesh" This is all very PERSONAL.

1 John 1:1-3 is also very clear, that THE WORD is indeed the PERSON JESUS CHRIST. This is also very clear from Revelation 19:13 could not be any clearer, "and His Name is the Word of God", HIS NAME is PERSONAL, and He, Jesus Christ, is THE WORD OF GOD.

The Bible is AGAINST what you believe! You must change, as the Bible cannot!

In John 1:1, there are two uses of the word god. First is ton Theon meaning “The God.” This refers to the Father since it uses the definite “the” article. This is the Lord God Almighty.

The other word for god is the is. This means god in a generic sense and can refer to people and is even used in regards to the devil in some cases in the New Testament.

Ton Theon in contradistinction theos means the idea being conveyed is that one isn’t the other. There is God and a lesser god or something godly because theirs can be qualitative.

The more likely of the two is that the word is something godly since, as I pointed out, 99% of the New Testament frames the word (logos) as an it. 1 John 1:1-3 directly says such.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Hebrews 1:2 has nothing to do with Genesis 1:1. God created through Jesus because that’s what the Bible says, but also the examples of these creations didn’t occur until after Jesus was born, in these last days.

What did Gos do exactly?

God have Jesus all of the teachings, words, miracle power, anointing, authority, etc to do what he needed to do to create the church, amass followers, make disciples, give proof, etc. This is all over the gospels and Acts.

Did you read Hebrews 2:10v it says Jesus needed to be perfected, but God is already perfect. That means Jesus isn’t God.

Hebrews 2
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God, for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.

Compare John 1:10 to Hebrews 1:2. The world made in John 1:10 isn’t the same world made in Hebrews 1:2. Hebrews 1:2 isn’t even about making a world or universe.


Romans 11:36 isn’t about Jesus. All things didn’t come from Jesus, but rather the Father according to 1 Corinthians 8:6. For us there is one God, the Father.

Did you actually read the verses you quoted and the Greek? The word through in them is defined as something acting as a channel, I.e., an instrument. You’re actually supporting my point, doing all the homework for me by quoting those passages.

1 Corinthians 8:6 does NOT read, "there is one God, the Father". There are NO punctuations in the Original Greek. It reads, "there is one God the Father", which is 100% correct, as there are NOT TWO!

 

[Runningman]

1 Corinthians 8:6 does NOT read, "there is one God, the Father". There are NO punctuations in the Original Greek. It reads, "there is one God the Father", which is 100% correct, as there are NOT TWO!

Correct, one God the Father as 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, John 17:3, etc says. That means Jesus isn’t God. We already have our one God, there are not others.

 

[Runningman]

HOW does the Father Create THROUGH Jesus Christ?

WHY would the Father, Who, according to YOU, is the only God, Create THROUGH a Created Person, Jesus Christ?

You can NEVER disprove what Hebrews 2:10 says, that Jesus Christ Created THROUGH God the Father, as there is NO OTHER explanation for the use of the genitive THROUGH!

Your own answers show that you know ZERO Greek!

Genesis 1:1 says that GOD CREATED. Can you show WHERE it says THROUGH?

What did God do exactly?

God gave Jesus all of the teachings, words, miracle power, anointing, authority, etc to do what he needed to do to create the church, amass followers, make disciples, give proof, etc. This is all over the gospels and Acts.

Are you aware of this?

 

[SolaScriptura]

In John 1:1, there are two uses of the word god. First is ton Theon meaning “The God.” This refers to the Father since it uses the definite “the” article. This is the Lord God Almighty.

The other word for god is the is. This means god in a generic sense and can refer to people and is even used in regards to the devil in some cases in the New Testament.

Ton Theon in contradistinction theos means the idea being conveyed is that one isn’t the other. There is God and a lesser god or something godly because theirs can be qualitative.

The more likely of the two is that the word is something godly since, as I pointed out, 99% of the New Testament frames the word (logos) as an it. 1 John 1:1-3 directly says such.

Utter RUBBISH!!!

In verse 5 we read, "there was a man sent from God", where the Greek is, "παρὰ Θεοῦ", there is NO Greek article used here, should this read, "there was a man sent from a god"? If not, then WHY not? WHY have one rule when it refers to Jesus Christ, and another for the Father?

You are trying to FORCE what the Bible does NOT teach!

As I have said, your own response here is CLEAR, that you know ZERO about Greek grammar!

 

[SolaScriptura]

Correct, one God the Father as 1 Corinthians 8:6, Ephesians 4:6, John 17:3, etc says. That means Jesus isn’t God. We already have our one God, there are not others.

So, according to your OWN NONSENSE, 1 Cor 8:6 also says, "One Lord Jesus Christ", which means that ONLY Jesus Christ is YHWH! So you destroy your own RUBBISH reasoning!

Isaiah 43:11 says, "I, only I, am YHWH, And there is no Savior besides Me"

This refers to Jesus Christ, Who is the ONLY LORD and SAVIOR!

You have just PROVEN that Jesus Christ is YHWH!!!

 

[Runningman]

Utter RUBBISH!!!

In verse 5 we read, "there was a man sent from God", where the Greek is, "παρὰ Θεοῦ", there is NO Greek article used here, should this read, "there was a man sent from a god"? If not, then WHY not? WHY have one rule when it refers to Jesus Christ, and another for the Father?

You are trying to FORCE what the Bible does NOT teach!

As I have said, your own response here is CLEAR, that you know ZERO about Greek grammar!

I have presented a very clear, biblical, sola scriptura, case that soundly and effectively debunks the alleged deity of Jesus. After all, he denied being God in Mark 10:18.

What’s your workaround for human beings as God being idolatry?

 

[Runningman]

So, according to your OWN NONSENSE, 1 Cor 8:6 also says, "One Lord Jesus Christ", which means that ONLY Jesus Christ is YHWH! So you destroy your own RUBBISH reasoning!

Isaiah 43:11 says, "I, only I, am YHWH, And there is no Savior besides Me"

This refers to Jesus Christ, Who is the ONLY LORD and SAVIOR!

You have just PROVEN that Jesus Christ is YHWH!!!

Jesus being the one Lord refers to the church. In the New Testament Lord generically means master, but it doesn’t mean the Father isn’t Jesus’ Lord. There is a hierarchy in heaven.

In Matthew 11:25 Jesus called the Father the Lord of heaven and earth.

Acts 4:23-27, Peter and John prayed to the Sovereign Lord and said Jesus is His servant.

The Lord over all is the Father, not Jesus.

Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus being the one Lord refers to the church. In the New Testament Lord generically means master, but it doesn’t mean the Father isn’t Jesus’ Lord. There is a hierarchy in heaven.

In Matthew 11:25 Jesus called the Father the Lord of heaven and earth.

Acts 4:23-27, Peter and John prayed to the Sovereign Lord and said Jesus is His servant.

The Lord over all is the Father, not Jesus.

Ephesians 4
5one Lord, one faith, one baptism;6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 9.5 says that Jesus Christ is GOD OVER ALL!

You can't win fighting against the Teachings of the Bible. And will be proven WRONG

 

[Runningman]

Romans 9.5 says that Jesus Christ is GOD OVER ALL!

You can't win fighting against the Teachings of the Bible. And will be proven WRONG

You don't even have that because punctuation is subjective. Here's the correct translation of Romans 9:5 proving that Jesus isn't God.

Romans 9 (RSV)
5 to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.