Hebrews 1:6 is only directed toward angels at the time of "when" He brings His firstborn into the world.
There are no commandments for Christians to worship Jesus.
As Jesus prescribed in John 4, the only one we are to worship is the Father.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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God No One Has Seen At Any Time
- Thread starter SolaScriptura
- Start date
There are no commandments for Christians to worship Jesus.
As Jesus prescribed in John 4, the only one we are to worship is the Father.
Not according to Scripture. Hebrews 1:10 says YHWH did it.
That's what you're doing.
Not according to Scripture. Psalm 2:7, Psalm 110:1
The day of the Lord and the day of Christ are the same things.
The day of Christ refers to the return of Jesus. The day of the Lord is when God brings judgement against evil. They do occur close together though.
Jesus isn't YHWH in Romans 10 though. Check Romans 10:11 because it's a reference to Jesus as the corner stone that YHWH laid, but Romans 10:12,13 are about YHWH. There is no verse about calling on the name of Jesus to be saved.
1 Timothy 3:16 doesn't say "God was manifested in the flesh" in most Bible versions because it isn't accurate.
Not according to 1 Timothy 3:16
1 Timothy 3
16By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was proclaimed among the nations,
was believed in throughout the world,
was taken up in glory.
2 John 1
7For many deceivers have gone out into the world, refusing to confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.
So do you say God appeared in the flesh or Jesus appeared in the flesh?
1 John 1:1-3 says that in the beginning the "Word of Life" was an it, a thing, that manifested or was revealed in a man.
1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And this fellowship of ours is with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
The Greek ἄγγελος, literally means MESSENGERS, SOMEONE WHO IS SENT. This can apply to every single person!
Jesus Christ clearly accepted WORSHIP when He was on earth. He never rebuked anyone from doing so! He never said, you must not WORSHIP Me, only the Father!
Matthew 8:1-2; “When He had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean.”
Mark 1:40; “Now a leper came to Him, imploring Him, kneeling down to Him and saying to Him, “If You are willing, You can make me clean.”
Matthew 9:18-19; “ While He spoke these things to them, behold, a ruler came and worshiped Him, saying, “My daughter has just died, but come and lay Your hand on her and she will live.” So Jesus arose and followed him, and so did His disciples”.
Mark 5:22-23; “ And behold, one of the rulers of the synagogue came, Jairus by name. And when he saw Him, he fell at His feet and begged Him earnestly, saying, “My little daughter lies at the point of death. Come and lay Your hands on her, that she may be healed, and she will live”
Matthew 14:33; “Then those who were in the boat came and worshiped Him, saying, “Truly You are the Son of God”
Matthew 15:24-26; “But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs”
Mark 7:25; “For a woman whose young daughter had an unclean spirit heard about Him, and she came and fell at His feet”.
Matthew 20:20-21; “Then the mother of Zebedee’s sons came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him. And He said to her, “What do you wish?” She said to Him, “Grant that these two sons of mine may sit, one on Your right hand and the other on the left, in Your kingdom”
Matthew 28:9-10, 16-17; “And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, “Rejoice!” So they came and held Him by the feet and worshiped Him. Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid. Go and tell My brethren to go to Galilee, and there they will see Me… Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had appointed for them. When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some doubted”.
Luke 24:51-53; “Now it came to pass, while He blessed them, that He was parted from them and carried up into heaven. And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen”
Same Greek word in every case!
John 4 says that the Father is the God who is to be worshipped, for He is seeking worshippers to worship Him in spirit and truth. Jesus was never worshipped in spirit in truth. Bowing down isn't the kind of worship God is looking for. It's really pointless to bow down to God if it is not in spirit in truth, therefore when Jesus was bowed to it wasn't the truth. The truth about worship is to worship the Father as John 4 says. That means Jesus isn't God because Jesus is a man not Spirit like God is.
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
Luke 24
39Look at My hands and My feet. It is I Myself. Touch Me and see—for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
It is very clear that Jesus Christ is WORSHIPPED
We do worship the Father in Spirit in truth. But Honor, power and glory belong to the lamb as well.
The throne Jesus sat down on was the Fathers. A flesh and blood man is not sitting on the throne of God in heaven.
Bowing down to someone isn't worship in spirit an truth and Jesus isn't glorified for it. Only God the Father gets glory for that. The Father is the only true God, there are no others.
John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.
Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
According to scripture, Jesus was raised as a flesh and blood man who was taken to heaven. He did not lose his body. And yet the Lamb is not on the same throne as God since the Bible is clear that he is not worshipped on the same throne as God is.
What is your workaround for those who overcome sitting on the throne with Jesus is Jesus if worshipped? Christians are worshipped as God?
I really don't need a workaround. I believe His words.
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Flesh and blood can not inherit the eternal Kingdom God promised to those who love and obey Him.
Jesus is the beginning and Firstborn of the dead in regard to the resurrection He spoke of. The First to rise from the dead in that resurrection. He has that preeminence, (Sumpremacy),as in all things.
We don't know what these spiritual bodies will be like at the resurrection of the righteous but we know we will be like Jesus.
Philippians 3
But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.
If the Father is Spirit how does He sit own His throne? The prophets spoke of what appeared as a figure of a man sitting on the throne. God told Moses no man can see His face and live. He shielded Moses with His hand and let Moses gaze on His backside.
I don't need to justify Jesus's words as I believe them as I believe in Him. He is the truth and the life and the one who judges.
Jesus is a resurrected man, consisting of flesh, who was taken to heaven. No such talk about him losing his body in the Bible. After being taken to heaven, they kept saying he is the "Son of man" at the right hand of God. Son of man is used in reference to being a human in scripture, see Job 25:6 for an example.
The Son of man (a human) at the right hand of God:
Psalm 110:1
Matthew 26:64
Mark 14:62
Acts 7:56
etc...
Besides, in Revelation 7 it's perfectly clear that God on the throne is not the Lamb Jesus. Do you believe these words?
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
I have quoted passages that say Jesus Christ is actually WORSHIPPED. You are trying to twist the meaning!
This is necessary, of course - that is, the twisting , even wrenching, changing the meaning to suit some teaching instead of abiding in truth, instead of turning to Jesus, turning to Truth, seeking Truth.
When someone/anyone/ is invested in a teaching or a group, and has swallowed those teachings foreign to truth, knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly,
they cling to what they are invested in - a teaching, a doctrine, a direction, a group, or even just one friend they count on ...
and letting go of what they have valued, what they have been deceived by, may be excruciating, painful, and disturbing to them....
but it is of course necessary as written: it is better to <even> be devastated now, instead of judged later....
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
this is very true. Just as the Jehovah's Witnesses do in John 1:1, where they have changed the reading "and the Word was God", which is what the Greek grammar, context and Bible actually says, to, "and the Word was a god". This is because their demonic "theology" does not allow that Jesus Christ is called God.
However, even in their NWT, they call Jesus "Mighty God", https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/nwt/books/isaiah/9/, verse 6
What I am trying to get you to see is that Jesus' teachings on the matter of worship were to worship the Father, the singular person in your Trinity that Jesus called his God, in John 4, in spirit and truth. Where Jesus is bowed to isn't spirit and truth.
The leap you're making, while leaving a huge gap in reasoning, is that if Jesus is worshipped on earth then it means he is God, yet there are no examples of him being worshipped in heaven. Also, worship doesn't automatically mean deity. It happened in the Old Testament as well. It can be done before kings or people of status without meaning they are God.
Also, it's strawman to say that I have admitted any such thing as Jesus being Lord God Almighty when I have not said or suggested any such thing. Actually, I have gone the extra mile to show the Biblical support that proves the opposite of your claims.
Here's another example of Jesus not being God:
Revelation 7
9After this I looked and saw a multitude too large to count, from every nation and tribe and people and tongue, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
“Salvation to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb!”
Here's what Jesus instructed and prescribed about about who to worship:
John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. 24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
So my question for you is by what authority would you worship someone else and what gives you the right to talk about believers in Jesus' teachings as being so tremendously deceived?
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
You always quote the Bible the way that YOU would like it to read, and NOT what God wants for us!
Here is another example of this. You quote from Revelation chapter 7, ""Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." (verse 10). WHY would you only have the words that refer to the Father in bold, and not all of it? Do you see the Greek καί, which is translated AND, which does mean ALSO, IN ADDITION TO. Which means, that salvation ALSO belongs to Jesus Christ! This makes Him COEQUAL with the Father!
This is also very clear in chapter 5, where we read
"And ALL of the Creation, which is in the heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them, heard I saying, to Him Who sits on the throne, and unto the Lamb, be ALL the Blessing, and ALL the Honour, and ALL the Glory, and ALL the Might, for ever and ever. And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and Worshiped." (so emphasized in the Greek)
Note also here, "AND to the Lamb", Who is included in ALL that is said about God the Father. And they are BOTH Worshiped TOGETHER. There is NO distinction made in this passage, that says they only Worshiped the Father!
For Jesus Christ to have ALL The Blessing, and ALL The Honour, and ALL The Glory, and ALL The Mighty, EXACTLY AS the Father has, can ONLY be because like the Father, Jesus is ALSO ALMIGHTY GOD! The words, "καὶ τὸ κράτος", means, ALL THE MIGHT there is, with no limitations. This is the SAME as saying ALMIGHTY, which is BOTH Jesus Christ AND God the Father! There is NO distinction made between the Father and Jesus Christ in this passage!
ONLY someone who cannot accept what the Bible clearly Teaches about Jesus Christ, because their "theology", or "church" says they cannot! The Bible is VERY CLEAR, that Jesus Christ IS YHWH, and therefore THE Eternal, Uncreated Almighty God!
k,
look around.
o,
won't do any good tho....
the deceived either don't realize how great is their own deception,
or they are unwilling to seek truth....
or both,
and continue unwilling to admit being deceived fully.
Yes, we all know that YHWH is the Creator of Heaven and Earth.
What you are in denial of, is Jesus is YHWH, as we so plainly see that the Son...
in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
To the Son - You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11
We know the Son laid the foundation of the earth, because He spoke through the mouth of the prophets, proclaiming that very thing in Zechariah.
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, (Christ) who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1
As the LORD Jesus Christ goes on to say through Zechariah -
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10
Jesus Christ spoke through the mouth of the prophets.
Jesus Christ created all things in heaven and earth.
- For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16
Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH the LORD God Almighty, to the glory of God the Father!
JLB
SolaScriptura
2024 Supporter
What about John 1:3, and Hebrews 1:2, and Colossians 1:15-18?
Here we have Jesus Christ as The Creator of the entire Universe
It is not that the Greek, "δι' αὐτοῦ", has the meaning, that God the Father, the Ultimate Source of Creation, Created THROUGH the Lord Jesus Christ, as some would argue, Who is the SECONDARY MEANS of Creation. In Hebrews 2:10, we have the exact same Greek, "δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα", where we also have the Greek preposition used with the genitive, meaning literally, "THROUGH Whom all things". WHO is the One Who here Created THROUGH God the Father? The context has Jesus Christ, to Whom it must belong. The Father Creates THROUGH the Son; and the Son Creates THROUGH the Father. It is important to note, that the original meaning of the Greek preposition "διά", had the meaning, "BETWEEN", as in "WORKING TOGETHER WITH". This perfectly suits Creation, which is a PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Which is why Genesis 1:1, has the masculine PLURAL, "'ĕlôhı̂ym", GOD, and not the masculine SINGULAR, “˒ĕlōah”, which would have been used, IF God were UNIPERSONAL. This is not the case, as we see from Genesis 1:26, where Creation is clearly the Work of MORE THAN ONE PERSON, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness". Those who do not like the FACT, that here we have Testimony that God is NOT UNIPERSONAL, have tired to argue, that the PLURAL is God Speaking with His angels!!! WHERE in the entire Bible does it ever say, that humans are "Created in the image of angels"???
We CANNOT fight against the Inspired, Infallible Word of Almighty God, which very clearly teaches that God is TRIUNE, Three Distinct Equal Persons, the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, Who are equally YHWH, but One in Their Divine Nature, or Godhead.