GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
Good, we agree that children tend to follow their parent's lead.

First of all, you have not defined "free will" so it is difficult to respond to the aspect of your statement as I am aware of many definitions. The FACTS show the children have a tendency to follow their parents beliefs as kids and adults. Even without a scientific study like PEW did it should be obvious that the children's religion when grown up is the same or similar to their parents. Give me a study to disprove the one I gave.
More proof of the obvious: I asked ChatAPT: does the religion of adults tend to be the same as their parents
.... the answer:
The religious beliefs and affiliations of adults often show significant correlation with those of their parents, but the degree of this alignment can vary widely depending on multiple factors including cultural context, societal trends, individual experiences, and generational changes.

So, if you define "free will" as the ability to decide to have salvific faith independent of the influence of others (parents for example) then the empirical evidence proves you wrong! Them's the FACTS!

Free Will is the ability to make a choice contrary to external dictates or influences. Free will is considered to be an illusion by those who believe choices are made because of genetic, sociological or uncounscious process.

But they believe that because they operate from a "materialistic world view".

The possibility we have a soul making the choice using its free will, before anything physical appears on materialistic sensors hasn't occurred to them, or is rejected.

The Bible's premise we must choose whom we will serve, requires the existence of free will and therefore I believe it. The bible is never wrong.

Although its not proof our souls make free will choices without influence from the body---this video on After Death Experiences shows that is the case.

Once freed of physical limitations people report they think in hyper speed with complete clarity, recalling details with 100% accuracy, even the emotions they felt and those of others they impacted----while standing before God in Judgment reviewing their life choices:

Materialist View: From this we get the "defund the police", the no judgment nothing is immoral crowd presently changing our cities in hell hole third world war zones:

The Illusion of Free Will

eddif · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
Free Will is the ability to make a choice contrary to external dictates or influences. Free will is considered to be an illusion by those who believe choices are made because of genetic, sociological or uncounscious process.

But they believe that because they operate from a "materialistic world view".

The possibility we have a soul making the choice using its free will, before anything physical appears on materialistic sensors hasn't occurred to them, or is rejected.

The Bible's premise we must choose whom we will serve, requires the existence of free will and therefore I believe it. The bible is never wrong.

Although its not proof our souls make free will choices without influence from the body---this video on After Death Experiences shows that is the case.

Once freed of physical limitations people report they think in hyper speed with complete clarity, recalling details with 100% accuracy, even the emotions they felt and those of others they impacted----while standing before God in Judgment reviewing their life choices:

Materialist View: From this we get the "defund the police", the no judgment nothing is immoral crowd presently changing our cities in hell hole third world war zones:

The Illusion of Free Will

So is the following the correct answer.

Galatians 2:20 kjv
20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

God works in us to will and do of His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13 kjv
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The (Epi) is God. Outside source inside doing the works.

Mississippi test dneck
eddif

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

eddif said:
So is the following the correct answer.

Galatians 2:20 kjv
20. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

God works in us to will and do of His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:13 kjv
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

The (Epi) is God. Outside source inside doing the works.

Mississippi test dneck
eddif

That wasn't true of Paul until his free will choice to believe in Christ.

Same for every believer.

eddif · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
That wasn't true of Paul until his free will choice to believe in Christ.

Same for every believer.

LOL
I would say it this way.

It was not true till Paul died to his free will and accepted his death in Christ Jesus and accepted the Holy Spirit. And the fellow God sent was about like Jonah (go to them/him?)

Jesus said (not my will).

I realize I sound strange.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Fastfredy0 · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
Free Will is the ability to make a choice contrary to external dictates or influences.

Hmmm ... .well that's a fairly open ended definition. So, using this definition the populace could be persuaded by external influences to believe or not believe salvificly 99.9% of the time. Gee, my definition is almost the same save I believe our choice is externally influenced 100% of the time and your definition could be as high as 99.99999% of the time. *giggle* So, in your case did you make a decision contrary to external influences like parents and God?

Alfred Persson said:
The Bible's premise we must choose whom we will serve, requires the existence of free will and therefore I believe it. The bible is never wrong.

Well this premise doesn't go to the crux of the matter. Of course man people choose to believe salvificly or not. The crux of the matter is: What is the cause of them choosing. That being said, billions of people in the last 2000 years have died having never heard of Christ and thus were never given the opportunity to choose.
When you get to the crux of the matter which is "what/who is the cause of a person to believe salvificly" then the bible says God is the cause and not man. 100s of verses, some more poignant than others.... like John 1:12-13
The best verses on your side depend upon ambiguous words like ALL, WORLD and EVERY or the assumption that because the bible says you are to choose you assume the cause of your choosing is yourself.

Alfred Persson said:
Although its not proof our souls make free will choices without influence from the body---this video on After Death Experiences shows that is the case.

I limit proofs to logic or scripture. Like, I can use a Ouija Board and say it proves X or Y.
I too have heard of interesting near death experiences but I don't draw conclusions from them.

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
Well this premise doesn't go to the crux of the matter. Of course man people choose to believe salvificly or not. The crux of the matter is: What is the cause of them choosing. That being said, billions of people in the last 2000 years have died having never heard of Christ and thus were never given the opportunity to choose.

I believe that incorrect. Its appointed for all to die, then a judgment where they can choose, freely...if they want Christ as their LORD, and eternal life with God or not.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 KJV)

Those who choose to believe in this life bypass hades, and go directly into the presence of the LORD.

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)

Those who die without Christ, make their choice in Hades:

5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
(1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Rev. 20:13 KJV)

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)

Fastfredy0 · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
Those who die without Christ, make their choice in Hades

We both agree that people make a choice. We differ as to the cause of them choosing Christ or not. I say God is 100% the cause of them believing and quote John 1:12-13 (I could list many others) and you say:

Alfred Persson said:
Free Will is the ability to make a choice contrary to external dictates or influences.

... which does not identify the CAUSE. All those who make a choice to believe salvificly do so contrary to their 'sin nature' ... but WHY DO they make this choice? What is the CAUSE? Where in scripture is YOUR verse(s) to answer the question?

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
We both agree that people make a choice. We differ as to the cause of them choosing Christ or not. I say God is 100% the cause of them believing and quote John 1:12-13 (I could list many others) and you say:

... which does not identify the CAUSE. All those who make a choice to believe salvificly do so contrary to their 'sin nature' ... but WHY DO they make this choice? What is the CAUSE? Where in scripture is YOUR verse(s) to answer the question?

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP

God does not violate free will. Because of our Depraved fallen nature God calls and irresistibly brings all who have not committed eternal sins, to a point where they can make a free will choice to receive Christ or not.

There is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ, never was even in the days of Adam and Eve. The timeless sacrifice of Christ has infinite ability to save all who by faith accept Jesus. All the OT saints did this when they died, they were saved by faith in Christ and not through acts of the law.

So also, everyone born into this world are given an opportunity for salvation, if they did not commit eternal sins, to be saved in Christ.

There is no salvation for anyone, infants included....apart from Christ. All are brought to a place where they can make a free will choice.

It is impossible someone in Hades "pretend" to receive Christ; only the righteous will be saved and the wicked are lost forever.

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Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
We both agree that people make a choice. We differ as to the cause of them choosing Christ or not. I say God is 100% the cause of them believing and quote John 1:12-13 (I could list many others) and you say:

... which does not identify the CAUSE. All those who make a choice to believe salvificly do so contrary to their 'sin nature' ... but WHY DO they make this choice? What is the CAUSE? Where in scripture is YOUR verse(s) to answer the question?

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP

Read it again. You misapply what pertains to regeneration, born again by the Spirit of God and not "a natural father", to free will. Verse 12 pertains to free will, "to as many as did [free willingly chose to] receive and welcome Him..." "To those who [free will] believe in His Name"....are then granted authority to be God's children and by God's Sovereign Will they are born again, their divine birth occurs. This is not natural conception of life via the flesh.

Fastfredy0 · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
God does not violate free will.

You got a verse showing God gave us "free will" let alone "free will" as you define it which is only partial "free will" as it can be influenced by others which IMO violates the idea of "free will"; but you get to define it as you wish. I think you should call your definition "partial free will" as it can be influenced by others.

Why did you chose to have a 'sin nature"?

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Why did you chose to be shapen in iniquity?

Aside: Your definition of "free will" is to general as it as it includes being influenced by external forces which violates the normal understanding of "free" when you are to some degree not "free".

Alfred Persson said:
There is no salvation for anyone, infants included....apart from Christ.

Well that general statement I agree with ... but it does not lay out how Christ uses the instrument of faith to save people. There is no salvation for anyone apart from Faith. John 3:18 says you must have faith in Christ or you are condemned. Since billion of people have died in last 2000 years without know of Christ it is empirically shown that at lease for these people they never were given "free will" even as you define it.

Alfred Persson said:
It is impossible someone in Hades "pretend" to receive Christ; only the righteous will be saved and the wicked are lost forever.

Agreed. Not sure how that is pertinent.

Alfred Persson said:
Read it again. You misapply what pertains to regeneration, born again by the Spirit of God and not "a natural father", to free will. Verse 12 pertains to free will, "to as many as did [free willingly chose to] receive and welcome Him..." "To those who [free will] believe in His Name"....are then, by God's power and not man's, born again.

WOW!!! You inserted "FREE WILLINGLY CHOSE TO" into the verse. That a huge hermetic no-no. LOL

Gee, if I use your hermetic style I could say scripture says: to [Fastfredy0 who is one of my top 3 favorites and] as many as did receive and welcome Him .... LOL

Under your name it says you are a "free will reformed baptist". This is a contradiction of term. electedbyhim is the forum representative and as such has some authority on the matter ... .Electedbyhim: Is "free will" contradictory to being reformed? (assumes 'free will' means one can choose God for salvation and such choice not be caused by God)

kjw47 · Jun 7, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
How can this be? Spirit beings have physical foreheads that can be written upon?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Rev. 14:1 KJV)

symbolism

eddif · Jun 7, 2024

The will for salvation:

John’s message of repentance and He who comes after me.

One name under heaven for salvation Jesus

One source for witnessing power Holy Spirit

Mississippi redneck
eddif.

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
WOW!!! You inserted "FREE WILLINGLY CHOSE TO" into the verse. That a huge hermetic no-no. LOL

Gee, if I use your hermetic style I could say scripture says: to [Fastfredy0 who is one of my top 3 favorites and] as many as did receive and welcome Him .... LOL

???. You cited the Amplified Version which puts additional words in parenthesis throughout its version:

John 1:12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the right [the authority, the privilege] to become children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name— 13 who were born, not of blood [natural conception], nor of the will of the flesh [physical impulse], nor of the will of man [that of a natural father], but of God [that is, a divine and supernatural birth—they are born of God—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified]. AMP

And the bolding confused what applies to the New Birth (not from a natural father), with our Free Will choice to receive and welcome Christ, which the Sovereign God rewards by granting believers the "right [the authority, the privilege]" to become children of God.

Its a free will choice we make to "believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name".

If you object to explanatory material in brackets etc., why are you citing the Amplified Version?

Alfred Persson · Jun 7, 2024

Fastfredy0 said:
Under your name it says you are a "free will reformed baptist". This is a contradiction of term. electedbyhim is the forum representative and as such has some authority on the matter ... .Electedbyhim: Is "free will" contradictory to being reformed? (assumes 'free will' means one can choose God for salvation and such choice not be caused by God)

Not a contradiction, a paradox. Both Arminius and Calvin are partly right:

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Alfred Persson · Jun 8, 2024

kjw47 said:
symbolism

Alfred Persson said:
How can this be? Spirit beings have physical foreheads that can be written upon?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Rev. 14:1 KJV)

Symbolism? Incorrect. Obviously, they have foreheads that can be written on and therefore are not "spirits".

Confirming this, they were chosen 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel. Last time I checked, spirits weren't listed as among the 12 Tribes.

Moreover, they are "sealed". Spirits aren't sealed, the children of God are sealed by the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

eddif · Jun 8, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
Symbolism? Incorrect. Obviously, they have foreheads that can be written on and therefore are not "spirits".

Confirming this, they were chosen 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel. Last time I checked, spirits weren't listed as among the 12 Tribes.

Moreover, they are "sealed". Spirits aren't sealed, the children of God are sealed by the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

The writings of the Prophets were sealed.
Rednecks just know it is so without a real total understanding.(?)

The Prophets wondered about the suffering they wrote.

The seed is the Word of God. A DNA book that is physical relating to the spiritual.

Our belief is written in our Heart and Mind.

Me Explain that? eddif lacks words.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

eddif · Jun 8, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
Symbolism? Incorrect. Obviously, they have foreheads that can be written on and therefore are not "spirits".

Confirming this, they were chosen 12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel. Last time I checked, spirits weren't listed as among the 12 Tribes.

Moreover, they are "sealed". Spirits aren't sealed, the children of God are sealed by the Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

Matthew 24:5 kjv
5. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

The leather box on their forehead contained scriptures. External pointing to what should be internal.

Left brain Right brain connected together by midbrain? Romans 1:20

Mississippi redneck.
eddif

Fastfredy0 · Jun 8, 2024

Alfred Persson said:
If you object to explanatory material in brackets etc., why are you citing the Amplified Version?

Good point.

eddif · Jun 8, 2024

While thingzare fairly quiet? I may try and explain (Epi).

Genetics (IMHO) do a pretty good job of keeping us looking physically human. Genetics may go a long way toward us being fairly healthy. God’s design works, it is written in us. Romans 1:20.

Outside influences try and break that plan/creation. Epigenetics try and break that book of instructions. Or the message from God comes to correct an error that had developed.

The seed is the book of reproduction of plant and animal life. Scripture is the book of spiritual and maybe even physical wellbeing,

Epidemiological study is looking at forces against logic. To me I can not do any logic against what God has outlined.
This does not mean the Law of Moses needs to continue beyond the purpose for which it was given. (Too long to be discussed fully here).

Evil comes to steal, kill, and destroy:
Good physical
Good spiritual

Epi is (in a sense) is evil trying to change genetics and the scriptures. mRNA in Covid is spike trying to invade cells, and rewrite what God wrote at creation.

This is all about understanding why parables.
Parables hide things so that hearing we hear not and seeing we see not.