GOD OF THE OT / GOD OF THE NT.......IS IT THE SAME GOD?

[Carry_Your_Name]

There is no actual spirit being living within one.

The body is the temple in which the spirit dwells.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Carry, I respect your intelligence, but what you're saying in this regard has me baffled to be honest.

First you say that children are not responsible.
Which is correct.

Then you say that their legal guardians are. And then so are they....??

So where in scripture does it state that the son is responsible for the father's sins?
Nowhere.

If what you state is correct,,,,,then a guardian's effect of baptism would be passed on to the child and this is also not correct.

We are responsible ONLY for our own sins:

I don't think so, you're reading it from a wrong angle. Just because children are not held responsible for their parents' sins doesn't mean they're immune to the CONSEQUENCE of their parents' sins. If your parents smoke and you're with them, their smoke affect your lungs as much as their own.

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” (Gen. 19:4-5)

You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Ex. 20:4-6)

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't think so, you're reading it from a wrong angle. Just because children are not held responsible for their parents' sins doesn't mean they're immune to the CONSEQUENCE of their parents' sins. If your parents smoke and you're with them, their smoke affect your lungs as much as their own.

Now before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both old and young, all the people from every quarter, surrounded the house. And they called to Lot and said to him, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us that we may know them carnally.” (Gen. 19:4-5)

You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Ex. 20:4-5)

I agree that the children suffer the consequences. Said this above to another member.

It doesn't seem to be what you were saying.
OK

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I agree that the children suffer the consequences. Said this above to another member.

It doesn't seem to be what you were saying.
OK

It WAS what I was saying. Children can't consent, their parents or other legal guardians make decisiosn for them, whatever their parents or legal guardians consent automatically apply to them. Didn't Jesus compare the end times with Sodom and the days of Noah? Did God spare any children from the nuking of Sodom or the Flood?

 

[Alfred Persson]

It WAS what I was saying. Children can't consent, their parents or other legal guardians make decisiosn for them, whatever their parents or legal guardians consent automatically apply to them. Didn't Jesus compare the end times with Sodom and the days of Noah? Did God spare any children from the nuking of Sodom or the Flood?

We agree children don't consent, yet they died with their parents. But that goes full circle back to the OP, they are in a better place and none of this affected their eternal destiny to be in God's kingdom. I believe children are "matured" and after they die, there is a judgment. Then they make their free will decision whether to be evil or good.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 KJV)

Christ appeared at the end of the ages so His sacrifice could be applied to everyone born since the foundation of the world, and choose life with God. Then the OT children slain in holy wars who chose Christ, "eagerly wait for His second coming" when they will be raptured with the Church, to meet Christ in the air.

I don't think its possible to "lie" in the afterlife, pretend to want good.

Therefore, consistent with the OP, the ruling should be God hasn't changed, His plan is perfect, none of the righteous will be lost, none of the wicked will be saved. Thus the God of light, love and justice is revealed throughout the Bible, Old Testament and New, to be the same Holy Father preached by our LORD Jesus Christ.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We agree children don't consent, yet they died with their parents. But that goes full circle back to the OP, they are in a better place and none of this affected their eternal destiny to be in God's kingdom. I believe children are "matured" and after they die, there is a judgment. Then they make their free will decision whether to be evil or good.

24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:24-28 KJV)

Christ appeared at the end of the ages so His sacrifice could be applied to everyone born since the foundation of the world, and choose life with God. Then the OT children slain in holy wars who chose Christ, "eagerly wait for His second coming" when they will be raptured with the Church, to meet Christ in the air.

I don't think its possible to "lie" in the afterlife, pretend to want good.

Therefore, consistent with the OP, the ruling should be God hasn't changed, His plan is perfect, none of the righteous will be lost, none of the wicked will be saved. Thus the God of light, love and justice is revealed throughout the Bible, Old Testament and New, to be the same Holy Father preached by our LORD Jesus Christ.

Yeah, tell this to the young myocarditis victims of the damn vaccines, shoved into their veins at the behest of their parents.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yeah, tell this to the young myocarditis victims of the damn vaccines, shoved into their veins at the behest of their parents.

Man has dominated man to his own injury, since Adam and Eve. Tell the young victims their pain is temporary, not eternal:

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. (Rom. 9:22-26 KJV)

 

[eddif]

How can this be? Spirit beings have physical foreheads that can be written upon?

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. (Rev. 14:1 KJV)

OT Law of Moses:
Can be carved in stone Tablets
Written on scroll ?
Lived in life?
Ceremonies done/performed
Not understood as pointing to Christ Jrsus


NT Royal Law?:
Written in new heart of flesh
Understood in New Mind of Christ

The law became flesh = Jesus
Jesus became life giving spirit
Jesus knocks at the door (door of the Born again man)
If we open the spiritual door He enters

Way beyond what a redneck can put into earthly words.

Looking at human anatomy the city we seek is the New Jerusalem of our mind / heart

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Alfred Persson]

OT Law of Moses:
Can be carved in stone Tablets
Written on scroll ?
Lived in life?
Ceremonies done/performed
Not understood as pointing to Christ Jrsus


NT Royal Law?:
Written in new heart of flesh
Understood in New Mind of Christ

The law became flesh = Jesus
Jesus became life giving spirit
Jesus knocks at the door (door of the Born again man)
If we open the spiritual door He enters

Way beyond what a redneck can put into earthly words.

Looking at human anatomy the city we seek is the New Jerusalem of our mind / heart

Mississippi redneck
eddif

If you changed "law" for Word, then you have the Word becoming flesh, and dwelling among us.

Far be it from me to limit the horizon for a redneck, if truth be shared "I'm a red neck too", love bluegrass and country:

 

[eddif]

If you changed "law" for Word, then you have the Word becoming flesh, and dwelling among us.

Far be it from me to limit the horizon for a redneck, if truth be shared "I'm a red neck too", love bluegrass and country:

Well I guess I got the message. Harmony .


A lot of this is about harmony, we should have our part, but it should blend together. Even if it is not what some like.

Creation came from words
Creation speaks
Actions reveal inner thoughts
God spoke through Prophets
The law was a schoolmaster till Christ
Jesus was symbolized in Moses law

Carved in stone
Recorded on iron oxide / rocks cry out
Digitized in chip
Temporarily in our brain.
Eternally in the mind of Jesus who should know is. (Is that the lambs book of life?)
Symbolism/parables.

God swore by himself because man thought that established things.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[GodsGrace]

It WAS what I was saying. Children can't consent, their parents or other legal guardians make decisiosn for them, whatever their parents or legal guardians consent automatically apply to them. Didn't Jesus compare the end times with Sodom and the days of Noah? Did God spare any children from the nuking of Sodom or the Flood?

But are you talking about parents making decisions for their children that will impact their lives....
or do you mean that salvation is involved?

You stated that if the parents take the sign of the beast and thus become lost....
their children will fare the same.

It seems to me that you were talking about salvation issues....

 

[Fastfredy0]

You stated that if the parents take the sign of the beast and thus become lost....
their children will fare the same.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/shared-beliefs-between-parents-and-teens/

Pew research. It states that children have a strong tendency to follow the religious or non-religious beliefs of their parents. It is empirical proof that "free will" as defined as "choosing to believe independent of outside influences" is false. We don't chose our parents and to some degree we don't "freely" chose our religious beliefs. The proof is irrefutable.

 

[GodsGrace]

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/shared-beliefs-between-parents-and-teens/

Pew research. It states that children have a strong tendency to follow the religious or non-religious beliefs of their parents. It is empirical proof that "free will" as defined as "choosing to believe independent of outside influences" is false. We don't chose our parents and to some degree we don't "freely" chose our religious beliefs. The proof is irrefutable.

What does the above have to do with children being or not being responsible for their salvation based on what THEIR PARENTS BELEIVE???

Please post some verses that state that children will be judged by God according to what their parents believe.
Thanks.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

But are you talking about parents making decisions for their children that will impact their lives....
or do you mean that salvation is involved?

You stated that if the parents take the sign of the beast and thus become lost....
their children will fare the same.

It seems to me that you were talking about salvation issues....

How about we stop this aimlessly speculation and yield it to God? The Bible is clear, all who have taken the mark will be judged (Rev. 16:2), all who have NOT taken the mark will rise from the dead and reign with Christ (Rev. 20:1-2). Regarding salvation in the next life, I have no idea whether whose names are written in the Book of Life, only God knows. The only clue is the census Num. 1:3 - only adults over 20 are counted, that doesn’t seem to include children, unfortunately.

 

[Alfred Persson]

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2020/09/10/shared-beliefs-between-parents-and-teens/

Pew research. It states that children have a strong tendency to follow the religious or non-religious beliefs of their parents. It is empirical proof that "free will" as defined as "choosing to believe independent of outside influences" is false. We don't chose our parents and to some degree we don't "freely" chose our religious beliefs. The proof is irrefutable.

And I thought the US Gov. was alone researching the obvious. Of course children trust their parents instinctively, ever see an infant refuse mother's milk?

It would be a total shock if children didn't manifest a "strong tendency" to follow parents in all sorts of things, including religion. Doest affect their free will choices once they are grown.

 

[eddif]

Jeremiah 31:25 kjv
25. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

We may need to discuss this area.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Fastfredy0]

What does the above have to do with children being or not being responsible for their salvation based on what THEIR PARENTS BELEIVE???

I gave empirical evidence that parents influence their children's belief. What the children believe they are responsible even though their belief is partially based on their parent's belief. Aside: This is also evidence that "free will" as defined as one's salvation is self-determine is false.

Please post some verses that state that children will be judged by God according to what their parents believe.

I did.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Of course children trust their parents instinctively, ever see an infant refuse mother's milk?

Good, we agree that children tend to follow their parent's lead.

It would be a total shock if children didn't manifest a "strong tendency" to follow parents in all sorts of things, including religion. Doest affect their free will choices once they are grown.

First of all, you have not defined "free will" so it is difficult to respond to the aspect of your statement as I am aware of many definitions. The FACTS show the children have a tendency to follow their parents beliefs as kids and adults. Even without a scientific study like PEW did it should be obvious that the children's religion when grown up is the same or similar to their parents. Give me a study to disprove the one I gave.
More proof of the obvious: I asked ChatAPT: does the religion of adults tend to be the same as their parents
.... the answer:
The religious beliefs and affiliations of adults often show significant correlation with those of their parents, but the degree of this alignment can vary widely depending on multiple factors including cultural context, societal trends, individual experiences, and generational changes.

So, if you define "free will" as the ability to decide to have salvific faith independent of the influence of others (parents for example) then the empirical evidence proves you wrong! Them's the FACTS!

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Good, we agree that children tend to follow their parent's lead.


First of all, you have not defined "free will" so it is difficult to respond to the aspect of your statement as I am aware of many definitions. The FACTS show the children have a tendency to follow their parents beliefs as kids and adults. Even without a scientific study like PEW did it should be obvious that the children's religion when grown up is the same or similar to their parents. Give me a study to disprove the one I gave.
More proof of the obvious: I asked ChatAPT: does the religion of adults tend to be the same as their parents
.... the answer:
The religious beliefs and affiliations of adults often show significant correlation with those of their parents, but the degree of this alignment can vary widely depending on multiple factors including cultural context, societal trends, individual experiences, and generational changes.

So, if you define "free will" as the ability to decide to have salvific faith independent of the influence of others (parents for example) then the empirical evidence proves you wrong! Them's the FACTS!

But are you talking about parents making decisions for their children that will impact their lives....
or do you mean that salvation is involved?

You stated that if the parents take the sign of the beast and thus become lost....
their children will fare the same.

It seems to me that you were talking about salvation issues....

The bottom line is, all gentiles and heathens who pass away without knowing Jesus will be judged according to their own conscience, so it's reasonable to put children in that category. Getting saved or not is determined individually, so maybe we should stop discussing all children as a whole and paint with one broad brush.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. (Rom. 1:18-21)

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? (Rom. 2:1-3)

 

[eddif]

Jeremiah 31:25 kjv
25. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

We may need to discuss this area.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

Messed that one up. Sorry.
Jeremiah 31:29 kjv
29. In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.
30. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.
31. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32. Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33. But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36. If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

I will hope later to know enough to talk about commandments contained in ordnances(?).

There was an OT time of children following parents. IMHO Pentecost was the time of Sons and Daughters coming alive spiritually (beyond and separate from their parents behavior).

This is the covenant theology I spoke of earlier.

Same God telling in OT what would happen in the future NT. New Covenant.

Mississippi redneck
eddif