God the Father created Jesus

[Johny]

If Jesus isn't God than Who/What is He?

 

[mutzrein]

If Jesus isn't God than Who/What is He?

This is what I say of Christ:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

 

[gingercat]

Excellent Mutz :D

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am" - John 8:58

My Lord and my God! – John 20:28

..who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped–Philippians 2:6

I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).

When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last (Rev. 1:17)

I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13).

In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was God. John 1:1

 

[Soma-Sight]

The word "Father" denotes the PREXISTANCE of a "Son".

How can a "Son" exist before the "Father"! :

That is as illogical as it gets.

So we are left with this.....

Either BOTH the Father and Son are God.... Making at the very least Two Gods thereby refuting Monotheism.....

Or the Hindu depiction of Monotheism is more accurate.....

"To what is One, sages give many a title" (trans. Griffith)

Smarta view

The system prevalent in Hinduism is defined by the Smartha philosophy; this theory allows for the veneration of numberless deities, but on the understanding that all of them are but manifestation of the ONE divine power. That ultimate power is termed Brahman or Atman, and is believed to have no specific form, name or attribute.

Only a Smartha, or follower of the Advaita philosophy, would have no problem worshiping every imaginable deity with equal veneration; he views these different deities as being manifestations of the same God. Other (somewhat peripheral) Hindu sects, such as Vaishnavism and Shaivism conform more closely to a Western understanding of what a monotheistic faith is. For instance, a Vaishnavite considers Vishnu as being the one and only true God, an attitude that resonates with that of the semitic religions. However, the Smartha philosophy defines the mainstream of Hinduism, and imparts to Indic spiritual and religious traditions their renowned liberalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_views_on_monotheism

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

The word "Father" denotes the PREXISTANCE of a "Son".

How can a "Son" exist before the "Father"!

Hey Soma,

A son cannot pre-exist his Father, nor am I saying he can. In the Nicene Creed it states, "begotten not made, one being with the Father, through Him all things were made." The Father "begot" the Son.

Either BOTH the Father and Son are God.... Making at the very least Two Gods thereby refuting Monotheism.....

Again in the Nicene Creed, we begin with, "We believe in one God".

Interestingly enough, saying Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God is not saying, "I worship three gods".

I am afraid I will only pale in comparison to the true majesty of the Holy Trinity, but I will try to explain as best I can.

The Father is God, but is not the Son or the Holy Spirit
The Son is God, but is not the Father or the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is God, but is not the Father or the Son.

I suppose you would have to stop thinking in terms of 1+1+1= 3 Gods
But think in terms of 1x1x1= 1 God

This metaphor has been done to death, but I'm going to say it again anyway.
Think of the Trinity as water.

Liquid-Father
Ice-Son
Steam-Holy Spirit

If I worship these 3 three manifestations of water am I worshipping three different substances? Of course not.

Liquid is water but not ice or steam
Ice is water but not liquid or steam
Steam is water but not liquid or ice.

God Love you,

FSW

 

[Imagican]

And all of this 'sounds' good, but in reality it is nothing more than a feeble attempt to label something that IS NOT labeled such through the Word. You offered that God 'begot'. Now, if this does NOT mean made, (which is what you stated), exactly what is your definition of 'begot'?

And when it is stated that there was NOTHING made that was not made by Christ, this could very easily mean, ANYTHING that WE are aware of. We have absolutely NO IDEA how long Christ has been in existence. 'Trinitarians' claim that His age and God's are the 'same'. I find this hard to swallow for the Word tells us otherwise.

So, if 'trinitarianism' has taken the 'whole' of the Word and 'tried' to put it in the 'doctrine of trinity', as these suggest, then I suggest that they have 'missed quite a bit', or purposely chosen to avoid certain aspects of the Word for their lack of an explanation in the defense of this doctrine.

Soma-sight, it does seem to make three 'separate Gods'. Regardless of their offering that there are somethings that we just 'can't' understand, I choose to dwell in the mystery of Godhead rather than speculate what 'might' be and make this doctrine that I would allow to ostracize all others that refuse to accept it. This is just my opinion though.

What we do KNOW however is that the Bible indicates in numerous places, including the words of Christ Himself, that He was created BY the Father. So, until one can actually "PROVE" that this is NOT so, how could those that accept the Word be considered by those that accept 'man-made' theology WRONG? Just don't make no sense now does it?

 

[Imagican]

ooh, ooh, ooh, I got it, I got it.................

Let's say that I were of a people that lived on the shore of a body of water. Over the years, my people began to worship this body of water for all that it offered us, (food, water, transportation, etc......).

As time goes by we eventually come into contact with another group of people that live 'not too far' from us. Upon developing a relationship with these people, we find that they too worship the body of water that they live next to. But, their body of water IS NOT OURS. Here is your answer: If I worshp steam, it IS different than water. And if I worshp ICE it too IS different than water. Even though they all three are water in their natural state as we know it, each is a different 'thing' regardless of how you try to justify that they each in their 'normal' state, are water. Much like I could continue my first example and offer that I met 'another' people that live MUCH further to our NORTH that DID NOT worship a body of water, but, instead, worshiped a 'big chunk' of ICE. This is AN OBVIOUS example of 'different' gods made of the 'same' substance'.

The problem arises when we come to the possible conclusion that Christ IS NOT God Himself, but exactly who He stated He was; God's Son. This being the case, wouldn't the making of Christ, God Himself, turn Christ into nothing other than a 'man-made' image? An idol with NO substance or power AT ALL other than in the minds and hearts of those that created this, possibly false conception?

 

[Free]

And when it is stated that there was NOTHING made that was not made by Christ, this could very easily mean, ANYTHING that WE are aware of. We have absolutely NO IDEA how long Christ has been in existence. 'Trinitarians' claim that His age and God's are the 'same'. I find this hard to swallow for the Word tells us otherwise.

I fail to see your argument in light of Col. 1:16, "16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him."

This agrees with John 1:3, "3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

A plain reading of the texts makes it clear that everything that has ever been made was made through Christ. It therefore follows that Christ cannot have been made without contradicting these passages. To get your interpretation from the texts we must change the definition of "all" to mean "most, but not all" or "everything but Christ himself".

So, if 'trinitarianism' has taken the 'whole' of the Word and 'tried' to put it in the 'doctrine of trinity', as these suggest, then I suggest that they have 'missed quite a bit', or purposely chosen to avoid certain aspects of the Word for their lack of an explanation in the defense of this doctrine.

On the contrary, it takes all relevant passages of Christ and God into account, whereas you must either ignore or change the meaning of not only the passages quoted above, but many others which imply the deity of Christ.

Regardless of their offering that there are somethings that we just 'can't' understand, I choose to dwell in the mystery of Godhead rather than speculate what 'might' be and make this doctrine that I would allow to ostracize all others that refuse to accept it. This is just my opinion though.

As I pointed out in another thread, you are being hypocritical since since you ostracize those who accept the Trinity and are not dwelling in any mystery since you have set beliefs about the nature of God. You are no different than any trinitarian.

What we do KNOW however is that the Bible indicates in numerous places, including the words of Christ Himself, that He was created BY the Father.

Provide just one verse where it is clearly stated that the Father created the Son.

 

[Sothenes]

Think of the Trinity as water.

Liquid-Father
Ice-Son
Steam-Holy Spirit

If I worship these 3 three manifestations of water am I worshipping three different substances? Of course not.

Liquid is water but not ice or steam
Ice is water but not liquid or steam
Steam is water but not liquid or ice.

God Love you,

FSW

That picture borders on Modalism or that God can only be one substance (or Mode) at one time which is not what we're teaching.

 

[Free]

Then consider the Triple Point of water. It is where water can exist as solid, liquid and gas at a given temperature and pressure.

http://www.physlink.com/education/askexperts/ae131.cfm

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

That picture borders on Modalism or that God can only be one substance (or Mode) at one time which is not what we're teaching.

I problaby shouldn't have specified as to what was who. However, No sir, that's not what I'm saying. The objective of this euphamism is simply to give a picture of an instance where their is unity and distinction at the same time.

 

[Georges]

And when it is stated that there was NOTHING made that was not made by Christ, this could very easily mean, ANYTHING that WE are aware of. We have absolutely NO IDEA how long Christ has been in existence. 'Trinitarians' claim that His age and God's are the 'same'. I find this hard to swallow for the Word tells us otherwise.

I fail to see your argument in light of Col. 1:16, "16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him."

This agrees with John 1:3, "3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Free, you and I have been through this before, yet you keep writing the same thing over and over....so I will repeat in kind.

Judaism...holds the correct answer to your verses....The Memra is God's creative word....The Memra is not God, but is God's representative Agent. As the Agent of God, the Memra is seen as God, without being God. Just like an Ambassador is seen as a country's Agent...The Memra was the active ingredient in the creation.

John 1:1 states that the Memra was God and according to the Jewish Law of Agency, that is correct....Jesus is the Memra in human form...He is not God, however he can be seen as God in representation...

The Memra is the common denominator.....

A plain reading of the texts makes it clear that everything that has ever been made was made through Christ.

It wasn't made by Christ as in Jesus in his human form....he (Jesus) never said that, Paul did....

It therefore follows that Christ cannot have been made without contradicting these passages. To get your interpretation from the texts we must change the definition of "all" to mean "most, but not all" or "everything but Christ himself".

The Messiah most certainly one of the first things created....In Judaism, there were several things created before the world....

from http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com article on preexistence....

....An ancient baraita handed down in different versions enumerates six or seven persons or things created before the world came into existence:

(1) the Torah, which is called "the firstling of His way" (Prov. viii. 22, Hebr.); (2) the throne of glory, which is "established of old" (Ps. xciii. 2);
(3) the sanctuaryâ€â€"From the beginning is the place of our sanctuary" (Jer. xvii. 12);
(4) the Patriarchsâ€â€"I saw your fathers as the first ripe in the fig-tree at her first time" (Hos. ix. 10);
(5) Israelâ€â€"Thy congregation, which Thou hast created from the beginning" (Ps. lxxiv. 2, Hebr.);
(6) the Messiahâ€â€"Before the sun his name sprouts forth as Yinnon, 'the Awakener'" (Ps. lxxii. 17, rabbinical interpretation); also, "His issue is from the beginning" (Micah v. 1; Pirḳe R. El. iii.);
(7) repentanceâ€â€"Before the mountains were brought forth, or even thou hadst formed the earth and the world," Thou saidst, "Return [to God] ye children of men" (Ps. xc. 2-3).

So, if 'trinitarianism' has taken the 'whole' of the Word and 'tried' to put it in the 'doctrine of trinity', as these suggest, then I suggest that they have 'missed quite a bit', or purposely chosen to avoid certain aspects of the Word for their lack of an explanation in the defense of this doctrine.

On the contrary, it takes all relevant passages of Christ and God into account, whereas you must either ignore or change the meaning of not only the passages quoted above, but many others which imply the deity of Christ.

Not so....Ima..pretty much interprets the passages the way the early Nazarene Christians would have....it takes the seeminly Gnostic Paul to introduce the foundations of a trinity...and actually, Paul doesn't ever teach there is a trinity....he never mentions anything about it, Tertullian, I believe is the one that refined the concept.

Regardless of their offering that there are somethings that we just 'can't' understand, I choose to dwell in the mystery of Godhead rather than speculate what 'might' be and make this doctrine that I would allow to ostracize all others that refuse to accept it. This is just my opinion though.

As I pointed out in another thread, you are being hypocritical since since you ostracize those who accept the Trinity and are not dwelling in any mystery since you have set beliefs about the nature of God. You are no different than any trinitarian.

What we do KNOW however is that the Bible indicates in numerous places, including the words of Christ Himself, that He was created BY the Father.

Provide just one verse where it is clearly stated that the Father created the Son.

well the 2 most obvious are....

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Once again...you have to consult Judaism and the concept of Memra to understand preincarnate Jesus.....

 

[Johny]

This is what I say of Christ:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

That didn't answer my question. What is He then, human or an angel...?

 

[Fulton Sheen's Warrior]

+JMJ+

That didn't answer my question. What is He then, human or an angel...?

He's God.

 

[Johny]

+JMJ+

That didn't answer my question. What is He then, human or an angel...?

He's God.

I know that. I'm trying to get an answer from those who don't believe so.

 

[mutzrein]

This is what I say of Christ:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

That didn't answer my question. What is He then, human or an angel...?

He is neither human nor angel.

 

[gazzamor]

Gingercat
This passage applies to Jesus only in an allegorical sense not literally

To use Proverbs 8:22-31 to prove that Christ is a created being is absolutely absurd.
The whole of Chapters 8, 9 is about the personification of wisdom.
Under the heading of chapter 8 which reads: “Wisdom’s Callâ€Â

8:1 Does not wisdom call out? Does not understanding raise her voice?

11 for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her.
12 "I, wisdom, dwell together with prudence; I possess knowledge and discretion.

22 "The LORD brought me (wisdom) forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;
23 I (wisdom) was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I (wisdom) was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I (wisdom) was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I (wisdom) was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I (wisdom) was the craftsman at his side. I (wisdom) was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind.

In an allegorical sense, there are indications that there can be an application to Christ,
such as Christ, the wisdom of God, and that Christ was there creating this world.

But to apply this passage to Christ as a time when he was not in existence, is actually saying that there was a time when there was no wisdom in the universe, and even worse, that there was a time when God had no wisdom.

This passage is about wisdom’s role in the creation of this world.
Psalm 104: 24 How many are your works, O LORD! In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures.

Proverbs 3: 19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place;

God bless

gazzamor

 

[gingercat]

Guzmore,

You can dismiss them as not applicable to Jesus, how about all others I listed up?

 

[Sothenes]

This is what I say of Christ:

Jesus is the one and only true Son of God, conceived of God’s Spirit, born of a virgin, inheriting the righteousness of God with all the attributes of perfection, attributed to the Father, and without sin or blemish. To Jesus alone has the title been credited: ‘The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.’

That didn't answer my question. What is He then, human or an angel...?

He is the God-Man. Fully God and Fully Human, He is Theoanthropos (Theo=God and anthropos=man) which is the God-Man