God the Father created Jesus

[Georges]

I was reading in my Bible, "Then the LORD (YHVH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven;"-Genesis 19:24

I know from the previous chapter that it says,"I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know."-Genesis 18:21 If he went down then how can he rain fire from heaven? You have to come up with better answers for me.

I've got one....it's called The Memra......

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... arch=Memra

Read the article.....it explains how "The Word" is a Jewish concept and is the active force in God's dealing with man....In other words, God speak's, his Memra accomplishes.

So anytime there is a perceived theophany of Christ in the OT, it is always in terms of being God's Agent, and as the Memra (God's Agent), he visits man.....

The Targum (Aramaic paraphrase of the OT) uses the term Memra in the various verses you have presented...

"Then the LORD (YHVH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHVH) out of heaven;"-Genesis 19:24

in the Targum reads,

"Then the "Memra" caused to rain upon Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone from the Lord out of Heaven".

or,

"Then the Word of the Lord caused to rain upon Sodom and Gomorrah, fire and brimstone from the Lord out of Heaven."

 

[gingercat]

Twice: “For by him were all things created†and “For by him were all things created: and for himâ€Â

Xicali and Sothenese,

This is talking about Jesus and Jesus is right hand assistant of God. He loves Jesus so much that He let Jesus do the powerful work! Just because Jesus is doing the work, does not means He is the God the Father!

All of you trinitarians have so many misintepretations of God and Jesus.

 

[xicali]

xicali - I don't doubt your sincerity but none of your trinity of posts (apart from your own words) say that Jesus is God.

Hello mutzerin,

I don't have any trinity post mutzrein, and apart from my own words I back them back with biblical verses.

I'ts just that the Godhead office was not claimed by God when he was in the flesh as a Jew under the law.

 

[Sothenes]

Twice: “For by him were all things created†and “For by him were all things created: and for himâ€Â

Xicali and Sothenese,

This is talking about Jesus and Jesus is right hand assistant of God. He loves Jesus so much that He let Jesus do the powerful work! Just because Jesus is doing the work, does not means He is the God the Father!

All of you trinitarians have so many misintepretations of God and Jesus.

http://www.ccel.org/pager.cgi?file=j/jf ... /JFB00.htm

How do you suppose that people who know Greek can come to different conclusions than you do? Why can I come away with a different understanding from reading the Greek as seen in the above link? I'm not asking you to counter the link. I'm just asking for your simple explanation.

 

[Imagican]

Jesus Himself portrayed two models in unity without exclusion. I am the Son and God is the Father, but we are also one.

At some point Jesus and God are one - whether in Heaven or on Earth or both; the irrefutable truth Jesus taught us is they are one without exception.

No, Klee Shay. Once again, we have a 'trinitarian' veiwpoint offering that Father and Son are ONE period. We have little reason to accept this other than as taught by the Word. And the Word does NOT give an exact definition of 'what this ONE' means. One in nature? One in 'being'? One in purpose? So, we are left to conjecture what this 'one' means.

Example: We are told that when a man and woman wed that 'they' become ONE. Are they really the 'same'? Are they 'truly' one, or is this simply a sybolic description of the joining in a common purpose? These we are left to discern for ourselves. And, any religion that teaches 'otherwise' is nothing more than 'man-made' teaching. I choose to follow the Word instead of men.

He also taught us that he is the Son and God is the Father - another irrefutable truth. So is Jesus lying at some point or has his infinite knowledge included both in his model of unity?

Not really sure what you are trying to say here. NO, Christ lied about NOTHING. But, there is the possibility that the words in the Word have been altered by man's influence and 'could' lead many to believe the intended purpose of their being changed. (Those that wrote the Bible could have very easily been influenced by 'their' church in their translating).

Another example we could use is that Jesus taught us to put God first and to call no-one else good - not even Him. And yet Jesus also taught us that there is no way to the Father except through the Son, which puts him before the Father; does it not?

NO, it places the order that God CHOOSES First. In other words, the Son could be or do NOTHING without the Father. This means that the Son's will is the Fathers TO BEGIN WITH. This means that the WAY was defined by the Father and delivered by the Son.

I still put God first but I also believe in Jesus as my means to the Father. By believing in Jesus in this way however, do I automatically put God last in order? No, I use the Holy Spirit to discern what is the whole truth and what is defiling God.

As you should. Can a 'trinitarian' explain to me what would be 'wrong' with me worshiping ONLY one God, the Father, and worshiping Christ AS His Son? Why would someone insist that I MUST accept their teaching or I am not 'born again'? Funny, but we are warned against such people.


Likewise, to say Jesus is not God is to call Jesus a liar for he said they are one also. Jesus didn't say at any point - I am not my Father. He said my Father and I are one. They are one without question or exception and that is an irrefutable truth.

No, once again you insist on placing the teaching of what this 'one' means ahead of what we KNEW BEFORE those that created 'trinity' were even in existence. See above. Are not ALL the followers of Christ the members of ONE BODY. Get it? This does NOT mean that we are all the same, just that we have a common bond through Jesus Christ, able to lead us to the Father.

On the other hand, if a person believes Jesus is God while excluding Jesus as the Son, they defile the whole truth as it was taught. Jesus taught he was the Son without exception - the irrefutable truth.

Ah, I see you are beginning to understand.

One understanding doesn't necessarily canel out the other. They are unified as the Father and Son are unified.

Which brings me back to my original question however. How does either stance effect our salvation? Jesus was the Son who was also unified with the Father; therefore Jesus and God are one. If a person follows trinity or not; aren't they both following the lessons Jesus taught to one degree or another? Do we ever get it completely right?

Ok, I already offered the explanation but let me say it again. To 'turn' Chist into GOD, takes away what was taught BEFORE 'trinity'. God taught us from the BEGINNING that there is ONLY ONE GOD. To make Christ God goes completely against this teaching. So, by making Christ into what one WANTS Him to be instead of what He actually IS, is nothing short of turning Him into an idol with NO power whatsoever. No different than worshiping a tree or a frog or a golden calf, etc............ It is stated that Christ WAS created, therefore He could NOT BE God. A part of God, OF God, no doubt, but God Himself is reserved TO GOD HIMSELF and NO OTHER.

Klee Shay, please don't think my responses are an attack. I am NOT telling you that you are wrong in your understanding. When I say no in my replies, I am simply offering that I disagree with what you may have stated. Each understands what is offered and can understand nothing more. Please, and I mean this, do not take offense to my offerings for they are nothing more than my understanding.

The biggest problem is when people begin to 'follow' the teachings of men rather than offered by God through the Spirit. I DON'T know if the Spirit dwells within ANYONE in particular. Therefore, what kind of fool would I be to follow ANY man. I choose instead to follow Christ to the Father through the Word. NO, not words, THE WORD.

And I see that you at least have the understanding that there is the possibility that 'trinity' makes NO difference. That's good, for that opens up the possible understanding of what I have been trying to offer.

Now, what IF 'trinity' is nothing more than a 'pagan' word to describe a 'pagan' Godhead and NOT the Godhead offered through the Word. Then, does it matter? Just a little food for thought and I do respect your offerings so Please, once again, do NOT take my offerings as a personal attack. They are not meant to be such.

God Bless,

MEC

Are we lost to the Lord completely or merely need redirection?

 

[gingercat]

w do you suppose that people who know Greek can come to different conclusions than you do? Why can I come away with a different understanding from reading the Greek as seen in the above link? I'm not asking you to counter the link. I'm just asking for your simple explanation.

Zicali and Sothense,

Here is very simple verse and clear identifications of God and Jesus:

Acts 7:55-56 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

There are many similiar verses like this.

 

[Imagican]

w do you suppose that people who know Greek can come to different conclusions than you do? Why can I come away with a different understanding from reading the Greek as seen in the above link? I'm not asking you to counter the link. I'm just asking for your simple explanation.

Zicali and Sothense,

Here is very simple verse and clear identifications of God and Jesus:

Acts 7:55-56 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

There are many similiar verses like this.

Ouch. This certainly must be confusing for those that accept 'trinity'. Two entities existing together at the SAME time, yet able to be seen as SEPERATE entities.

So, as soon as a 'trin' replies that 'we know that they are seperate', I ask now, if this is realized, then what need was there to 'create' this 'trinity' doctrine? Why not just accept what has been offered and leave it at that. Instead, we have a group that created this 'doctrine' and insisted upon the acceptance of it as if they were 'God' themselves. Persecuting those that refused it to the point of torture and murder.

The idea of 'trinity' may be found in the Word by those that strive to find it. But what man is able to create doctrine that is NOT offered in the Word, and INSIST that everyone that refuses it is 'anti-Christ? If you ask me, any man that would create a doctrine and INSIST that others follow it to the point of murdering those that refused it would be the one who could more rightly be accused of 'anti-Christ'.

 

[Sothenes]

w do you suppose that people who know Greek can come to different conclusions than you do? Why can I come away with a different understanding from reading the Greek as seen in the above link? I'm not asking you to counter the link. I'm just asking for your simple explanation.

Zicali and Sothense,

Here is very simple verse and clear identifications of God and Jesus:

Acts 7:55-56 "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. "Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

There are many similiar verses like this.

You are taking this verse to be literal but I take it to be partly figurative and it may be figurative because "at the right hand of God" just signifies authority or it could be possible that you discovered two distinct persons that make up the one God because they are separate and distinct.

I wish to answer your question on Colossians 1:15 for you even though you haven't shown yourself to answer my questions yet but that is ok.

The word "image" is simple enough in English that we all know what it is talking about but Greek is a different language with different meanings which do not cross over in translation. It says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. You cannot take a photograph of an image that is invisible so what is this image of?

"Christian teachers, when they adopted this term, exalted and fixed its meaning by attaching to it two precise and definite ideas: (1) The Word is a divine Person (John 1:1), and (2) The Word became flesh (John 1:14).-Lightfoot, quoted on page 181 and 182 of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament, Volume 1, Eerdmans

The image of Colossians 1:16 would be the Logos. Image is "eikon" and Wuest says it involves two other ideas which is representation (allied to character-Lightfoot) and the other idea involved is that of manifestation of the hidden which is what I tried to tell you before that the eternal word (God, John 1:1) became flesh (John 1:14)and dwelt among us for how else could "God was manifest in the flesh" (I Timothy 3:16) if Jesus was not God?

Micah 5:2 says that out of Bethlehem shall he come forth,"whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, THe Prince of Peace."-Isaiah 9:6 This is the eternal Son which is called "The mighty God, The Everlasting Father" and though He came into the world through birth, He is from everlasting to everlasting and not a created being. "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."-Colossians 2:9 If God was not manifest in the flesh and if God did not become flesh (John 1:14) then Colossians 2:9 wouldn't say that in Jesus dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

"Vincent says;'The indwelling of the divine fulness in Him is characteristic of Him as Christ, from all ages and to all ages. Hence the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him before His incarnation, when He was 'in the form of God' (Phil. 2:6) The Word in the beginning was with God and was God (John 1:1). It dwelt in Him during His incarnation. It was the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth, and His glory which was beheld was the glory as of the Only-begotten of the Father (John 1:14; compare I John 1:1-3). The fulness of the Godhead dwells in His glorified humanity in heaven. The fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him in a bodily way, clothed with a body. This means that it dwells in Him as one having a human body. This could not be true of His pre-incarnate state, when He was 'in the form of God,' for the human body was taken out by Him in the fulness of time, when He became in the likeness of men (Phil. 2:7), when the Word became flesh. The fulness of the Godhead dwelt in His person from His birth to His ascension. He carried His human body with Him into heaven, and in His glorified body now and ever dwells the fulness of the Godhead."-p.201-202, Word Studies in The Greek New Testament, Volume 1, Kenneth Wuest

 

[mutzrein]

xicali - I don't doubt your sincerity but none of your trinity of posts (apart from your own words) say that Jesus is God.

Hello mutzerin,

I don't have any trinity post mutzrein, and apart from my own words I back them back with biblical verses.

I'ts just that the Godhead office was not claimed by God when he was in the flesh as a Jew under the law.

Sorry, I thought you would have understood my 'trinity' comment. :-? It referred to your THREE postings. A trinity of postings.

But about the Godhead office of Jesus - where is there any claim to it?

 

[Sothenes]

Micah 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from his holy temple.

Micah 1:3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

It is important to understand this verse in light of the Trinity because it speaks of God coming down and the verse speaks about Himself.

 

[gingercat]

Zicali and sothens,

Here is another clear identifications of God and Jesus;

Matt 3:l6-l7 "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

 

[Imagican]

Matthew 24:36


36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I don't know how 'trinity' applies to this passage either. It seems as if Father and Son were ONE as offered by 'trinity', that Christ WOULD know what the Father knows, (them being ONE and all).

Anyone care to elaborate on this one?

And if Father and Son ARE ONE in the manor that 'trinity' perscribes, then when Jesus says, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", wouldn't Christ have simply stated, "I forgive them for they know not what they do"? And the ringer: If Christ and God ARE ONE as prescribed by 'trinity', how is it possible that Christ could state, "MY FATHER, why hath thou forsaken ME"?

Now I know that 'trinity' offers that there are three persons. But, it also states that they are co-equal. For something or someones to be coequal, wouldn't that necessitate that each be as informed as the next? I mean, in essence, doesn't 'trinity' teach that they are each separate persons, but a 'part' of the SAME body? Now, how could one KNOW something without EACH knowing this SAME thing?

 

[gingercat]

Here are some more clear veces:

Matt 22:44 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right had until I put your enemies under your feet."'

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-- more than that, who was raised to life-- is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Ephesians 1:19-21 ...and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from yhe dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.

Hebrews 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

 

[Sothenes]

Zicali and sothens,

Here is another clear identifications of God and Jesus;

Matt 3:l6-l7 "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

That is a verse that plainly shows the distinct and separate persons of God and it is often used to prove the Trinity.

In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: "I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." Did you realize the title "Savior" is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. "I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
from http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm

 

[gingercat]

Zicali and sothens,

Here is another clear identifications of God and Jesus;

Matt 3:l6-l7 "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

That is a verse that plainly shows the distinct and separate persons of God and it is often used to prove the Trinity.

In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: "I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." Did you realize the title "Savior" is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. "I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
from http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm

They are not proving trinity!!!! Jesus is representative of God!!! Jesus is God's right hand assistant!!!

 

[Sothenes]

Matthew 24:36


36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

I don't know how 'trinity' applies to this passage either. It seems as if Father and Son were ONE as offered by 'trinity', that Christ WOULD know what the Father knows, (them being ONE and all).

Anyone care to elaborate on this one?

And if Father and Son ARE ONE in the manor that 'trinity' perscribes, then when Jesus says, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", wouldn't Christ have simply stated, "I forgive them for they know not what they do"? And the ringer: If Christ and God ARE ONE as prescribed by 'trinity', how is it possible that Christ could state, "MY FATHER, why hath thou forsaken ME"?

Now I know that 'trinity' offers that there are three persons. But, it also states that they are co-equal. For something or someones to be coequal, wouldn't that necessitate that each be as informed as the next? I mean, in essence, doesn't 'trinity' teach that they are each separate persons, but a 'part' of the SAME body? Now, how could one KNOW something without EACH knowing this SAME thing?

There are events in the Bible that Jesus chooses to know. Jesus knew where a coin would be found (Luke 5:4) and many other events which I could tell you. Jesus saw Nathaniel under a fig tree when Jesus wasn't around.

The fact that Jesus shares a human nature with the divine means that He can choose not to know.

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Being co-equal doesn't mean that Jesus does what He wants but there is a heirarchy involved in the Trinity.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Taking on the form of a servant means that you take on limitations as well and that is why God the Son left God the Father in charge.

To answer why Christ asked the Father to forgive them is Romans 3:25 because in order to satisfy God's wrath, Jesus had to become a propitiation for man's sins. The reason God could forsake God is if they are different persons and the Father cannot look upon the Sin that was placed on Jesus.

Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

God provided Himself as a lamb. "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast - all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain - from the creation of the world."-Revelation 13:8 That lamb is the pre-existent Christ.

 

[gingercat]

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Aren't we going into the rabbit trail debate?

Of course Jesus does everything what His father wants Him to do. Jesus is His trusted right hand representative.

 

[Georges]

Zicali and sothens,

Here is another clear identifications of God and Jesus;

Matt 3:l6-l7 "As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

That is a verse that plainly shows the distinct and separate persons of God and it is often used to prove the Trinity.

In Isaiah 43:11, God speaks: "I, even I, am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." Did you realize the title "Savior" is reserved in Scripture for God? This verse says so in the plainest possible terms. "I am Jehovah; and there is no savior besides Me." That is why Paul, writing to Titus, did not shrink from applying the name God and the word Savior both to Jesus Christ. Titus 2:11-13 says this:

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus.
from http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/articles/deity.htm

They are not proving trinity!!!! Jesus is representative of God!!! Jesus is God's right hand assistant!!!

Nail on the head....Gingerkitty, you hit the nail on the head....the Book is so much easier to interpret if only people could get that concept...then you don't have to guess at what the Godhead is....It's in perfect order, God and Son...separate and not equal, except in Agency.

 

[gingercat]

Nail on the head....Gingerkitty, you hit the nail on the head....the Book is so much easier to interpret if only people could get that concept...then you don't have to guess at what the Godhead is....It's in perfect order, God and Son...separate and not equal, except in Agency.

You are right George! Once I stopped believing trinity I started to understand the Bible so much easier!!!!

 

[mutzrein]

Nail on the head....Gingerkitty, you hit the nail on the head....the Book is so much easier to interpret if only people could get that concept...then you don't have to guess at what the Godhead is....It's in perfect order, God and Son...separate and not equal, except in Agency.

You are right George! Once I stopped believing trinity I started to understand the Bible so much easier!!!!

Excellent Gingercat - now lets work on those other theological distortions. Just kidding :wink:

And I agree with you. Once you have the right premise, the right foundation, it cannot be shaken.

And here is a verse I have quoted elsewhere which again puts into perspective the relationship between God and son and spells out very clearly the difference.

1 Corinthians 15: . . . For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. . . .

I know some will try to argue against it because their whole theology is hinged on the Trinity and/or Jesus being God, but really . . . how much do they have to deny?