God's Will?

[Jim Parker]

In this Chapter, St. Peter mentions what the "mockers" of the Lord were saying, "where is the promise of His coming" (v4), to explain to the saints (both then and now) that God has chosen to tarry for a very good reason, because of US :amen IOW, He tarries so that "all" of those He chose from before the foundation of the world (i.e. Ephesians 1:4), might have the time they need to come to repentance and be saved. So the "all" that He is being patient with are the elect (who have not yet come to faith), not the saints who are already in Christ.

God tarries because He does not wish that ANYONE would perish.
It is the mockers with whom God is patient.
It is those who do not believe with whom God is patient.

The all powerful, irresistible, god of the TULIP, that is unable or unwilling to save all of mankind, has no need to be patient since it already knows who it has picked and when they will submit to its will. and be reprogrammed to love it. It can go take a nap. (Monsters need naps too!)

The God of scripture, on the other hand, does not destroy sinners for their evil acts in order to give them more time to repent. The God of scriptures so loved THE WORLD (not just some of the world) that HE opened the gates of His kingdom so that whosoever chooses to repent and believe the Gospel may enter into eternal life.



iakov the fool

DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Thou shalt not snivel! Thou hast been forewarned! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[st_worm2]

Hi Jim, the only way that πᾶς in v9 can be understood to mean, "everyone w/o exception", is by changing the clear, contextual meaning that St. Peter (and, of course, the Epistle's true Author) intended, and apply a presuppositional meaning to it instead. You agreed that 2 Peter was written to and for the saints of God, even going so far as to point out that every part of the short passage that it's found in, as well the verse itself, points to that conclusion ... EXCEPT for the word πᾶς in the final phrase of v9.

If this is actually the case, then that portion of v9, suddenly & w/o indication, takes on a completely different meaning and focus, and then, just as quickly (and again w/o any indication from St. Peter), returns to the Epistle's original, contextual meaning/focus.

It also doesn't answer the question I asked you in my last post,

...why would God tell us that He's being "patient" with those He knows are reprobate, IOW, with those He knows are perishing and will NEVER come to faith?

So even if your presupposition is true as a general, Biblical principle, I don't believe it can be true of this passage or this verse if it's context is given any weight whatsoever in its exegesis.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - just to be clear, I believe that the Lord's death on the Cross was sufficient to pay for the salvation of all w/o exception, and that the outward call of the Gospel and the,"whosoever believeth may come", is also true for all. None, in the end however, will be able to come to Jesus apart from His Father's direct intervention, His drawing/enabling and permission (i.e. John 6:44, John 6:65). Equally true however is the fact that:

1) ALL (w/o exception) who are drawn by the Father and given to the Son WILL come to Him and 2) NONE of these "drawn ones" will be lost (but will be raised to life by Jesus on the last day .. see John 6:37-40). So unless ALL w/o exception are "saved", the atonement is limited to those who the Father draws and gives to His Son.

26 “You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. ~John 10

​

 

[Runner]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

Creating a world in which the Nazi Holocaust and the Abortion Holocaust might happen as the result of humans' exercise of their free will was indeed God's will, so in that sense everything that happens is His will. We have to assume that creating such a world served God's larger purposes, so in that sense everything that happens is His will. He could obviously pull the plug on the entire enterprise at any time, so in that sense too everything that happens is His will. I don't believe Jane aborting her 6-month-old fetus is God's will in any way, shape or form, but creating a world in which Jane would have the freedom to make this decision, and allowing her to make the decision rather than intervening supernaturally, was clearly God's will. I don't have a problem with the notion that God is always in control and that everything that happens is in accordance with His will, but the only explanation as to why this is so (i.e., why all the ghastly things that happen are allowed to happen) is that God's ways are not our ways and His thoughts are not our thoughts. He has a purpose and plan that cannot be understood from our perspective, as the Book of Job teaches. For God to be "in control" in the moment-by-moment sense you're suggesting would have required either that humans lack free will or that God constantly intervene to prevent the consequences of their sinful decisions.

 

[Jim Parker]

None, in the end however, will be able to come to Jesus apart from His Father's direct intervention, His drawing/enabling and permission

Wait while I get my pen and ruler so I can draw a line through: John 12:32 "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself"

 

[st_worm2]

Hi Jim, what does "VFW" stand for? (surely you don't mean "Veterans of Foreign Wars", right? )

Thanks!

 

[Jim Parker]

Creating a world in which the Nazi Holocaust and the Abortion Holocaust might happen as the result of humans' exercise of their free will was indeed God's will, so in that sense everything that happens is His will. We have to assume that creating such a world served God's larger purposes, so in that sense everything that happens is His will.

It is not God's will that man sins. Says so right there in yer BYE-bul at 1Co 15:34.
That is MAN's will.
God has given man free will to do whatever he pleases. If man is pleased to commit sin, it is MAN's responsibility, not God's.

All this gnostic speculation about what God's will is a waste of time.
It doesn't matter how good a theologian you are.
it doesn't matter what you think πᾶς means.

What matters is:
Do you give food and water to the hungry and thirsty, clothe the naked, give shelter to the stranger, visit the sick and imprisoned?
Do you provide for widows and orphans in their need?
Do you let your light so shine before men that they see your good works and praise the Father in heaven?

Harumph!

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim, what does "VFW" stand for? (surely you don't mean "Veterans of Foreign Wars", right? )

Thanks!

random letters so I could delete the post

 

[Jim Parker]

For God to be "in control" in the moment-by-moment sense you're suggesting would have required either that humans lack free will or that God constantly intervene to prevent the consequences of their sinful decisions.

Exactly!
You nailed it.

 

[st_worm2]

Wait while I get my pen and ruler so I can draw a line through: John 12:32 "if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself"

Hi Jim, I'm not sure why you've chosen to cite this verse. Do you believe that Jesus has drawn all people to Himself w/o distinction (meaning all TYPES of people, Jews AND Gentiles), or that He has literally drawn all people w/o exception to Himself? If it's the latter, how can that fact be demonstrated?

And/or do you mean to say that John 12:32 somehow alters the contextual meaning of the verses that I posited from John 6? If so, please elaborate!

Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[st_worm2]

random letters so I could delete the post

Ahh, thanks

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim, the only way that πᾶς in v9 can be understood to mean, "everyone w/o exception", is by changing the clear, contextual meaning that St. Peter

1. The word πᾶς is not in that sentence. The word used is πάντας which means everyone or everything.
And, according to Strong's, the KJV translated πᾶς in the following manner:
all (748x), all things (170x), every (117x), all men (41x), whosoever (31x), everyone (28x), every man (11x),every thing (7x), any (7x),
whatsoever (6x), whosoever (with G3739) (with G302) (3x)
It never translates it to mean a select few.
2. What you call "clear context" is your predetermined interpretation. It is only "clear" to those who have previously decided what the scripture means based on their theology rather than on scripture.
The context you propose is an artifact of Calvin's heresy of limited atonement.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Thou shalt not snivel! Thou hast been forewarned! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[Jim Parker]

Do you believe that Jesus has drawn all people to Himself w/o distinction (meaning all TYPES of people, Jews AND Gentiles)

Yes.

If it's the latter, how can that fact be demonstrated?

An individual's response to the drawing of the Holy Spirit is not observable. It is not available for materialist, scientific observation and measurement. The drawing is subjective, not objective.
I have no idea why that would not have been obvious to you.

 

[Jim Parker]

And/or do you mean to say that John 12:32 somehow alters the contextual meaning of the verses that I posited from John 6? If so, please elaborate!

The "contextual meaning" that you assign to any particular verse are, IMO, not based on the scripture but on what you have predetermined that scripture can and cannot mean.
Jhn 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Since Jesus does not say or do anything other than what the Father would say or do, 12:32 absolutely alters the meaning of 6:44 when it is taken out of it's context.
Jhn 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” those words were spoken by the same Jesus who said, “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me." (Rev 3:20)

Jhn 6:40 “And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You have used the word "context" but have then proceeded to "proof-test" you way through scripture rather than taking it as a whole piece. That is not reading according to any alleged "contextual meaning". It is playing "Battling Proof-Texts."

Unfortunately, that is what passes for exegesis today.

Meanwhile, the multitudes perish while cook-book theologians cut and paste Greek words from their Bible software pretending to know something about Koine Greek and literary analysis.

oi gevalt


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. Thou shalt not snivel! Thou hast been forewarned! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[st_worm2]

An individual's response to the drawing of the Holy Spirit is not observable. It is not available for materialist, scientific observation and measurement. The drawing is subjective, not objective. I have no idea why that would not have been obvious to you.

Hi Jim, it's not obvious because by itself, v32 isn't clear, one way or the other.

What is contextually clear from John 6 however is that literally EVERYONE who is drawn by the Father and given to the Son will be "saved", 100% of them So if what you are saying is true, that ALL, w/o exception, are drawn/enabled and given permission to come to the Son, then according to the Bible, ALL w/o exception will be "saved". (I'll include again some of the pertinent verses of which I speak below).

I've never asked you this directly, but is that what you believe, that the atonement is universal, IOW, that ALL, w/o exception, will be saved?

Thanks!

Yours in Christ,
David

37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”
44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. ~John 6
​

 

[Jim Parker]

Hi Jim, it's not obvious because by itself, v32 isn't clear, one way or the other.

What is contextually clear from John 6 however is that literally EVERYONE who is drawn by the Father and given to the Son will be "saved", 100% of them So if what you are saying is true, that ALL, w/o exception, are drawn/enabled and given permission to come to the Son, then according to the Bible, ALL w/o exception will be "saved". (I'll include again some of the pertinent verses of which I speak below).

I decline your invitation to play dueling proof-texts.
You have decided that God doesn't want everyone to be saved but, instead, wants to have plenty of people to roast in hell.
I don't believe in that god.

I've never asked you this directly, but is that what you believe, that the atonement is universal, IOW, that ALL, w/o exception, will be saved?

no
I don't believe all will be saved.
Neither do I believe it is beyond the scope of God's love.
I believe all could be saved if they chose to be. (and if if's and buts were fruits and nuts, every day would be Christmas)
In any case, God's will be done.

 

[Mustard Socks]

• John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"
• John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
• John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"
• 1 Timothy 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."
• 1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
• 1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

 

[st_worm2]

It is not God's will that man sins. Says so right there in yer BYE-bul at 1Co 15:34.
That is MAN's will.
God has given man free will to do whatever he pleases. If man is pleased to commit sin, it is MAN's responsibility, not God's.

Hi Jim, I think you wrote this to me instead of Runner, so I will comment.

I agree with everything you've said, EXCEPT that man is always free to do whatever he pleases (God still intervenes whenever He chooses to, often, I believe, to restrain the overwhelming evil that would surely ensue if He did not). But I certainly agree that God is never the Author of sin, so (just like you said) the choice to sin and the responsibility for doing so is ours alone. God allows us to sin (and in the sense that He does ordain such things, they happen as a part of His will). IOW, since nothing happens apart from His ordination, nothing happens apart from His will either. You continue:

All this gnostic speculation about what God's will is a waste of time. It doesn't matter how good a theologian you are. It doesn't matter what you think πᾶς means.

Actually, we are commanded to rightly divide the word of truth .. 2 Timothy 2:15, a) so that we may be complete, equipped for every good work .. 2 Timothy 3:17 and b) that we might be transformed by the renewing of our minds, so that we can prove what the will of God is .. Romans 12:2).

So it seems to me that rightly dividing the word to discover God's will for our lives is hardly a "waste of time" In fact, how else can we discern Biblical Truth from the "truth" that is proposed by so many to fit their various extra-Biblical presuppositions? You continue:

What matters is:
Do you give food and water to the hungry and thirsty, clothe the naked, give shelter to the stranger, visit the sick and imprisoned?
Do you provide for widows and orphans in their need?
Do you let your light so shine before men that they see your good works and praise the Father in heaven?

Harumph!

I can't argue with that

If someone does these kinds of things it is a very good indicator that they may indeed be Christian. If someone NEVER does such things however, and if their life is characterized by the kind of living that was typical for them prior to the time that they claimed to have become a Christian, then it is a sure bet that their "claim" is nothing more than that.

Good works/holy living is the RESULT of being saved, not the CAUSE. IOW, only a Christian can 'act' like a Christian!

Non-Christians cannot. They cannot know His will because they do not "know" Him. Nor do they have the HS or the mind of Christ (so they cannot obey Him). In fact, they cannot accept or understand the things of God because such wondrous things must be spiritually appraised .. Matthew 7:22-23; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

As St. Paul tells us in several places, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. ~Rom 4

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ~Eph 2

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy ~Titus 3​

But the doing of good works is certainly one of the principle reasons that He saves us and then leaves us in this world .. cf Matthew 5:16. But we are not saved (nor do continue in the faith) on the basis of what we 'do'.

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - sorry about the "essay". It was not intended and I will try to avoid doing so again in the future.

"We are His masterpiece, created in
Christ Jesus for good works"
Ephesians 2:10​

 

[st_worm2]

I decline your invitation to play dueling proof-texts. You have decided that God doesn't want everyone to be saved but, instead, wants to have plenty of people to roast in hell. I don't believe in that god.

Do you believe that all will be saved? If you don't, do you believe that God knows beforehand who will and who will not be His at the end of the age (or do you believe that He is forced to wait and wonder what we might eventually choose to do)?

As for "dueling proof-texts", I don't know of any verses that contradict one another. If they appear to do so, then either one text or the other .. or BOTH, are not being properly understood. So this is not a matter of "my text says this" while "your text says that", rather, it's about how to properly interpret all of the text(s) we have before us (thus the reason for the command to rightly divide the word of God .. yes ).

no I don't believe all will be saved. Neither do I believe it is beyond the scope of God's love. I believe all could be saved if they chose to be. (and if if's and buts were fruits and nuts, every day would be Christmas)
In any case, God's will be done.

Ahh, so you don't believe that all will be saved but that many will, as you put it, "roast in Hell".

I believe, along with John 3:16, that whosoever believes will be saved, but I likewise believe (along with John 6) that those of us who end up choosing to believe, can only do so because we've been drawn by the Father and given to the Son first, just like the Bible says. Of course, I also believe (along with John 6) that all who have been "drawn", WILL, w/o exception, be saved (again, because that's something the Bible also makes clear to us ).

As a result, I don't believe that I'm the one causing the Bible to contradict itself, but your presuppositions certainly seem to be (because of the need they create to bend the meaning of the word of God to accomdate them ).

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[Mike]

st_worm2 here's one believer who very much appreciates your well thought out, well expressed, and courteously delivered messages. You are keeping the spirit with which CFnet was conceived. :yes

Be blessed.

 

[st_worm2]

Thanks Mike, good to know and very much appreciated

God bless you as well! (Numbers 6:24-26)

--David