Gods' Wrath

[God Is My Judge]

We are commanded to love God with our minds. That means He is understandable. If there is a logical problem, it doesn’t rest with Him, but our theology. We have assumed things of him that are not true.

Believing God poured out his wrath on Jesus is not in scripture and therefore doesn’t make sense considering he later pours out his wrath. The scriptures above do not say that God poured out his wrath on Jesus. They do say Jesus bore out sin. They don’t say God was angry and released his anger punishing Jesus instead. This theology, frankly, is deeply insulting to the Father. This is why I defend Him against the untruth.

So, there is no wrath concerning sin? Ok. Then people should fear not to sin. I mean since there is no consequence. And the pouring out wrath thingy you keep referring to I guess should not be , according to your logics. What was the Father thinking- bowls of wrath pour out upon sin, puh! Thanks for clearing that all up. I mean to have bore our sins, all the punishment that comes with that was not His Father's will. Christ misunderstood the cup He was to drink from that He asked His Father to take away from Him, adding your will not mine. Dorothy Mae, don't know what I would have done if you didn't clear all this up. Christ bore nothing, good to know!

 

[Whatever]

No, because a man who was sinless, who passionately loved goodness and truth suffers more under injustice and evil than an evil man.

But thief on the cross suffered no injustice. To mete out justice in not evil.

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

 

[Whatever]

Atonement is bringing someone into oneness with God. That can only happen if people are conformed to Christs' image.

Yes, but for that to happen God's wrath against them has to be propitiated.

Col_1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

 

[Whatever]

This is why I defend Him against the untruth.

You have pre-made up ideas about God - "God can't do this" God won't do this," My God would never do X,Y or Z."

Then when somebody shows you a passage clearly showing that God does do X, Y or Z, you deny it and say it is deeply insulting to the God you have made up in your mind. I have learned to let go of what I think is proper for a Holy God and accept whatever the Scriptures clearly lay out even if I don't understand it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have pre-made up ideas about God - "God can't do this" God won't do this," My God would never do X,Y or Z."

No, I don’t. The Bible actually says he is good. It says he does not lie. It says he cannot be tempted to do evil. I’m not making up what He told his servants about himself. Either our faith is based on truth or it is just imagination. Do you believe God can do evil he said he cannot?

Then when somebody shows you a passage clearly showing that God does do X, Y or Z, you deny it and say it is deeply insulting to the God you have made up in your mind.

No I don’t. The devil quoted scripture verbatim. Did Jesus just “deny” those verses or did he answer them?

None of the passages quoted say God poured out his wrath on Jesus. None. I’m not the one denying scripture.

I have learned to let go of what I think is proper for a Holy God and accept whatever the Scriptures clearly lay out even if I don't understand it.

Then you will never come to love God with your mind. What you’re doing is refusing to think about what the author was actually communicating. When, for example, the author wrote God creates evil. It’s clear in the passage it means catastrophe. To this day we say something BAD happened to me. We do not mean moral evil was done to me, despite the fact that the word “bad” also means moral evil.

Now you can refuse to think and accept blind faith. You’ll have less to communicate of Him to anyone, and the faith won’t be as appealing as those who know Him can offer, but it doesn’t mean it’s nothing.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

But thief on the cross suffered no injustice. To mete out justice in not evil.

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Correct. So his suffering was less than Jesus’.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes, but for that to happen God's wrath against them has to be propitiated.

Col_1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

My friend, Our Lord Jesus not destroying those who persecuted him IS PROPITIATION. God on earth, holding back his anger,

When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 1Pet.2:23

 

[journeymanisnothing]

And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mk.14:65

But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa.78:38

YIKES!!!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mk.14:65

But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa.78:38

YIKES!!!

And people get mad if you point out that they are wrong!! What a difference!

 

[Whatever]

My friend, Our Lord Jesus not destroying those who persecuted him IS PROPITIATION. God on earth, holding back his anger,

No, propitiation is God-ward. God was propitiated. Jesus holding back His anger is just Him doing exactly what He was supposed to do.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

Matthew 26:54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

 

[Whatever]

And some began to spit on him, and to cover his face, and to buffet him, and to say unto him, Prophesy: and the servants did strike him with the palms of their hands. Mk.14:65

But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa.78:38

Your Matthew quote is talking about Jesus, and the Psalm quote was talking about God forgiving the Jews in the wilderness. You are mixing up passages to teach nonsense.

Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge
the world but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Jesus know that the time to judge would be at the last day, not right there and then.

 

[Whatever]

Correct. So his suffering was less than Jesus’.

Yes, infinitely less than Jesus. It was not the pain of the nails but the Father forsaking Him.

Mat_27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

 

[journeymanisnothing]

And people get mad if you point out that they are wrong!! What a difference!

I misread the scriptures for a long time. When a dear brother in Christ showed me my errors, I ignored the scripture he cited fir a long time. It wasn't until I seriously examined what he said that I saw he was right. It's atounding.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No, propitiation is God-ward. God was propitiated. Jesus holding back His anger is just Him doing exactly what He was supposed to do.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

Matthew 26:54 But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

Jesus is God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Your Matthew quote is talking about Jesus, and the Psalm quote was talking about God...

Jesus is God.

 

[Whatever]

Jesus is God.

The Word took on flesh. He has two natures. In His human nature He did not come to judge.

Luk 12:13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. 14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

God took on flesh and became a man. As a man, He had a job to do - be the sacrificial lamb to die for sins.
In the OT, God judged people and pardoned people especially Israel.

You can't compare how God worked in the OT with how Jesus lived in the 3 or so years of His ministry.

 

[Whatever]

No, because a man who was sinless, who passionately loved goodness and truth suffers more under injustice and evil than an evil man.

Yes, but you are looking at things just from a human point of view. He wasn't just a man. The Word who was with God and was God, became flesh and was born and given a name Jesus. This God-man suffered things on the cross that no mere man could. Part of that suffering was being forsaken by the Father.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, but you are looking at things just from a human point of view. He wasn't just a man. The Word who was with God and was God, became flesh and was born and given a name Jesus. This God-man suffered things on the cross that no mere man could. Part of that suffering was being forsaken by the Father.

Yes, the suffering you mention is ALSO part of his suffering. Whether a man could have endured that or not cannot really be measured. I think we would not know. In any case, He suffered more not less.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The Word took on flesh. He has two natures. In His human nature He did not come to judge.

He didn't come to immediately judge sinners, but,

Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that those who do not see may gain their sight, and the ones who see may become blind." Jn.9:39

But this is the way God has always dealt with people. Look at what he's saying. Nothing has changed.....except our perception of Christ. Look,

Lamedh Your word, LORD, is eternal; it stands firm in the heavens. Psa.119:89

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Mt.28:18

The Eternal is given nothing. The problem is, after walking with him for years, they didn't know him very well. He only needed to show them.

Luk 12:13 And one of the company said unto him, Master, speak to my brother, that he divide the inheritance with me. 14 And he said unto him, Man, who made me a judge or a divider over you?

Yes, good example of God cloaked in flesh whithholding judgment.

God took on flesh and became a man. As a man, He had a job to do - be the sacrificial lamb to die for sins.

I've shown many times how Jesus bore our (mankinds) sins.

In the OT, God judged people and pardoned people especially Israel.

Nothing has changed,

He answered them, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered these things? No, I tell you! But unless you repent, you will all perish as well! Lk.13:2-3

You can't compare how God worked in the OT with how Jesus lived in the 3 or so years of His ministry.

That's exactly what we should be doing, except Jesus lived his whole life that way.

The grief our Savior went through. It must have felt like an eternity hanging on that cross. Maybe exactly like God being grieved over the sns mankind were committing against him as he waited while Noah built an ark.

 

[Whatever]

The grief our Savior went through. It must have felt like an eternity hanging on that cross.

That is basically what I have been trying to say. No mere human person could have bore what Jesus went through. It was more than just the physical pain of being crucified. I still believe the Bible implies that Jesus bore God's wrath on the cross.

Christian Standard Bible
Isaiah 53:6 We all went astray like sheep;
we all have turned to our own way;
and the Lord has punished him
for the iniquity of us all.

Contemporary English Version
6 All of us were like sheep
that had wandered off.
We had each gone our own way,
but the Lord gave him
the punishment we deserved.

What did we deserve? The wrath of God.