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Grammar and this Generation

Mike

Mike

Member
Great news! Our son, Joshua, will be in 11th grade next year, and he will be taking AP English. Here's the bad news... Whenever I proofread his papers, I'm amazing that someone who excels in the subject cannot go a paragraph without an incomplete sentence!

For anyone who isn't familiar with AP in high school these days, this is where kids have exceeded high school level course work, and they take college level classes. At the end of the year, they take an exam. If they pass the exam, they get college credits and don't have to take that class when they get there.

Joshua's a smart kid. He'll also be taking AP Chemistry and German. He's very bright, but dude cannot compose a sentence! It's one thing when we're on a forum like CFnet. I'm pretty picky with my posts, but not everyone is when on line. I get that. However, if a kid is supposedly advanced enough for AP English, he should be able to write a paper for school without butchering sentence structure, shouldn't he? They even have word processors with grammar-check on their computers. When I check his papers, I have to ask if he's color-blind too, because there are green squiggles all over it to tell him he's done something wrong.

I'm 44 and quick to admit I'm old, but I'll ask it anyway. Are we throwing in the towel with the expectation that this generation and ones to follow will be able to write proper English?
 
Mike said:
I'm 44 and quick to admit I'm old, but I'll ask it anyway. Are we throwing in the towel with the expectation that this generation and ones to follow will be able to write proper English?
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Old?:bigfrown Read Psalms 51 and tell God to forgive you. Man, you aren't old. You'd be at 70. So get back and play American Football for your team.
 
Sorry, Mike. Your son is good. The truth is that children don't always need the computer-help-me-scale-through these days. How about calculators? The use of that has spoilt most of our little ones today. They can't solve 1 + 1 without punching the calculator. All these are quite good, but, they should only be used when they must have conquered a world without those.


If your son (as you claim) can't make a complete sentence in English - at least he can speak!!! lol

I hope you didn't judge him based on your own level? That'd be bad of you if you did.
I remember my dad used to chastise me, telling me: 'You didn't give paragraphs, you don't begin a sentense with a small letter, you don't write 'I' as 'i', some nouns require that the first letters begin with capital letters....and how come you made an A when all you've written is nonsense? I suspect your teacher is as bad?'


Teachers know the grading!!! They know stuff! Mike, your son is not your model - he doesn't fit into your own class. If you think something is wrong then go meet his teacher. The teacher has the standard!!!! The teacher teaches your kids how they should drink coke and not how adults do that.

German? Good! Great advantage to him!!
But don't let that kid follow American football. Teach him the diamond of Spanish Football - La Liga:thumbsup :lol
 
Mike said:
Are we throwing in the towel with the expectation that this generation and ones to follow will be able to write proper English?[/B]
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Yes.

I got taught grammar in primary school and in grade 7, but in middle and senior school, it gets ignored by markers. Even spelling, to a point does. What markers are looking for is what you are trying to say. As long as they know what you're saying, generally marks aren't taken off for bad spelling or grammar.

I see why they do it that way, but it would be good to see more focus on grammar, and spelling particularly.

But to be honest, although I try hard to use proper grammar, as long as I know what people are trying to say, and vice versa, I don't mind what grammar is ignored or misused.

At the end of the day, the English language has got to where it is by evolving and butchering other languages and dialects, so why stop now? I try not to get too hung up about it. :shrug
 
Alas my poor Micheal. It bares my heart with such a flutter to hear of your son's horrendous grammar skills. Yay verily, my own generation can not spin a tale without contractions. My heart aches and yearns for the impassioned and whimiscle writing of Victorian English. Modern scribes are such a bane to our ever existence........................ DO you guys need me to go on? I can break out some Shakesperian Insults and through in so Old English as well. I'm a huge fan of Wells, Verne, and Dumas. :p Pantaloons, gallivant, rookers, durigable, fortnight, knickers. :)
 
reba said:
Jason and i do not have a clue!
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Ok, its true that my grammar is poor. This fact is due to my lack of using it at times and also laziness. This is a debate forum, therefore, I dont spend a ton of effort in perfect grammar. I dont get paid to write.I do know the difference, and I will admit that I have forgotten some things.

I also look at it this way. If I got the time to have perfect grammar for this site and others that I'm on then I would also be writting or in a job where grammar is needed and appreciated.

I view science the same way. How much time do I have to learn the basics of biology, physcis etc ?Very little time for that. Therefore, I pick some of the basics and learnt them and keep track of the big picture. I could also learn science and the others things, but I wouldnt be wasting time debating on forums arguing with men and women who dont want to believe. I would rather spend time doing reasearch.That doesnt mean the apologetic is a waste of time.I just need to use common sense and wisdom.
 
Nick said:
Yes.

I got taught grammar in primary school and in grade 7, but in middle and senior school, it gets ignored by markers. Even spelling, to a point does. What markers are looking for is what you are trying to say. As long as they know what you're saying, generally marks aren't taken off for bad spelling or grammar.

I see why they do it that way, but it would be good to see more focus on grammar, and spelling particularly.

But to be honest, although I try hard to use proper grammar, as long as I know what people are trying to say, and vice versa, I don't mind what grammar is ignored or misused.

At the end of the day, the English language has got to where it is by evolving and butchering other languages and dialects, so why stop now? I try not to get too hung up about it. :shrug
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I used Joshua to make my point that even above-average students can't write papers. Yes, there are exceptions. If a teen goes beyond the HS curriculum or even just meets the criteria to go to college, the premise is that they've been prepared for college or the work force. I can't imagine college students writing papers full of errors. They would have sent me home! More so, succeeding in most careers requires that you can write with correct grammar. It's important to land the job in the first place.

Outside of school or work, I don't have a problem with it, but I do think it's a bad habit to get into. I just can't imagine what this generation will do when they find themselves in careers. :shrug
 
When I was in college every future student had to test into what level of basics they started at. The colleges will correct your son.
 
I'll be honest here, most of my posting is done in colloquial speech, but nonetheless, none of it has been grammatically incorrect. I owe this, as much as I hate to say it, to the Catholic school my parents put me in when they couldn't find any Christian schools where I lived. The priests there (we had to call them "Brother This" or "Father That") were merciless when it came to making certain that you knew how to do things properly. If you made a mistake on something, you were expected to catch it immediately, and if you did not, it was a quick lash with a ruler for the boys, and holding the ear for the girls until you fixed the problem. Even 10 years later, I can identify all of the parts of speech in a sentence, identify verb forms, clauses, phrases, etc.

I, too, took AP English in high school. I took AP literature, AP Language and Composition, and IB Literature, then IB Language and Composition. I scored 5's on the AP, and 6's on the IB.

One of the things that kept me on the path of proper English is watching quite a bit of the BBC, in which usually only the King's is spoken.
 
It's sad that the children lose the joy of expression in word, it's their loss and I think in the UK it is to a degree the parents and the schools quest for exam results that encourages reading for value and not for pleasure. Pleasure reading of fiction seems to be viewed as a waste of time unless its within the course.
 
ivorhughjarse said:
It's sad that the children lose the joy of expression in word, it's their loss and I think in the UK it is to a degree the parents and the schools quest for exam results that encourages reading for value and not for pleasure. Pleasure reading of fiction seems to be viewed as a waste of time unless its within the course.
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Well, let's be honest, it takes less effort to get more out of the internet than out of a book. Sad, though, and I understand your point, but don't act as if you don't know why it's like this.
 
jasoncran said:
Ok, its true that my grammar is poor. This fact is due to my lack of using it at times and also laziness. This is a debate forum, therefore, I dont spend a ton of effort in perfect grammar. I dont get paid to write.I do know the difference, and I will admit that I have forgotten some things.

I also look at it this way. If I got the time to have perfect grammar for this site and others that I'm on then I would also be writting or in a job where grammar is needed and appreciated.

I view science the same way. How much time do I have to learn the basics of biology, physcis etc ?Very little time for that. Therefore, I pick some of the basics and learnt them and keep track of the big picture. I could also learn science and the others things, but I wouldnt be wasting time debating on forums arguing with men and women who dont want to believe. I would rather spend time doing reasearch.That doesnt mean the apologetic is a waste of time.I just need to use common sense and wisdom.
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It took a while to lear how to read your posts Jason . Your form of writing is an endearment to me. You write like you talk, one of the things i loved about reading Johnny Cash and Loretta Lynn's books. Your form, willingness to post, gave me some confidence to post. A year + ago most of what i posted was some form of copy and paste..
 
Do you mean with poor communication? I dont often communicate well. I have had that problem for a long time. College helped with that but since I didnt practice it left me.

So I have to work again on it.
 
Scootaloo,

I too, took AP Language and Composition (but not AP Literature & I don't know what IB is:sad ) Would you say thought that in AP Language and Composition, more focus was placed on the student's ability to read through prompts and analyze them, rather than actual writing?

Mike, I understand that your son's grammar issues are a bit confusing seeing as he's taking a college-level course, but there are different levels of students in AP: maybe your son was smart enough to get into AP English, which is great, but English isn't necessarily "his thing"...? Scootaloo scored very high on his AP tests (two 5's); the highest you can get. I received a 4 on my AP test and I still had to take English in college :grumpy Three quarters of it! I wouldn't worry so much about the grammar right now; like you said, he's a bright kid, otherwise he wouldn't even be in that class.
 
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