Hades is Sheol

[Grappler]

But Luke 16 specifically says the begger and the rich man died, and the rich man buried. Yes, what is going to happen to them AFTER THEY DIE! Luke 16:22!!

lol...you just don't get it do you urk? It is a parable. A ficitonal story that conveys a spiritual truth.

I understand it's a parable, but why fiction. What is your conclusion, why would spiritual truth be fiction. Blessings.

I suspect it is fictional because most parables are for one. Also the content tells me that it is fictional. For example. If it is a true story as you believe...then people in this so-called place of torment can have conversations with those who are not...that is ridiculous. Also the bosom of Abraham is an actual place?? please. The idea of the dead going to hell contradicts scripture as well. These are more than enough reasons for me to conclude that it is fictional.

 

[Grappler]

[] lol...you just don't get it do you urk? It is a parable. A ficitonal story that conveys a spiritual truth.

The OP does not claim it's merely an parable rather an allegorical parable.

See parable or historical the spiritural truth is the same.

From Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart’s How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth.

9 Mistakes people make when trying to interpet scripture

Allegorizing. “Instead of concentrating on the clear meaning of the narrative, people relegate the text to merely reflecting another meaning beyond the text.â€

_______

Most books on interpeting scripture warn us of this mistake. I just picked one at random and did a quick copy/paste.

Liberal scholars pretty much allegorize the entire bible. One can do that if they want.

Exactly. The spiritual truth is there even though it is a fictional story. A story that in no way was meant to be a description of the afterlife, but the point Jesus was making was that just because you are the rich man (Pharisees) doesn't mean that you will enter the Kingdom of God while those whom you least suspect (Lazarus) will be in the Kingdom.

 

[Guest]

I suspect it is fictional because most parables are for one. Also the content tells me that it is fictional. For example. If it is a true story as you believe...then people in this so-called place of torment can have conversations with those who are not...that is ridiculous. Also the bosom of Abraham is an actual place?? please. The idea of the dead going to hell contradicts scripture as well. These are more than enough reasons for me to conclude that it is fictional.

I don't understand, why did Jesus tell a story if it's fiction. I believe all parables are speaking to our hearts in a non fictional way. How can we learn lessons from the parables of Jesus if they aren't real. The rich man was having a conversation because Jesus was teaching us a specific lesson. It's not ridiculous because Jesus is the one that spoke. Notice Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. What's the lesson that Jesus is teaching here.

The bosom of Abraham is describing of where we will spend eternity. Lazarus here, is secure in God's eternity because he accepted Jesus into his heart when he was alive on earth. Amen. Notice in the next chapter Luke 17, speaks about having faith. The idea of the dead going to hell contradicts scripture? Come again..

 

[Grappler]

I suspect it is fictional because most parables are for one. Also the content tells me that it is fictional. For example. If it is a true story as you believe...then people in this so-called place of torment can have conversations with those who are not...that is ridiculous. Also the bosom of Abraham is an actual place?? please. The idea of the dead going to hell contradicts scripture as well. These are more than enough reasons for me to conclude that it is fictional.

I don't understand, why did Jesus tell a story if it's fiction. I believe all parables are speaking to our hearts in a non fictional way. How can we learn lessons from the parables of Jesus if they aren't real. The rich man was having a conversation because Jesus was teaching us a specific lesson. It's not ridiculous because Jesus is the one that spoke. Notice Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. What's the lesson that Jesus is teaching here.

The bosom of Abraham is describing of where we will spend eternity. Lazarus here, is secure in God's eternity because he accepted Jesus into his heart when he was alive on earth. Amen. Notice in the next chapter Luke 17, speaks about having faith. The idea of the dead going to hell contradicts scripture? Come again..

thats okay i know you don't understand...I learned a lesson from this fictional story...didn't you?? In my opinion the whole idea of the rich man having a conversation while he is in hell with Abraham is silly when taken literal. Where did people go before Abraham got there?? You know since Abraham wasn't there yet i guess it was not called his bosom was it??

 

[Butch5]

Hi Doulous

In response to your post # 83 I'll take "extreme coincidences".

Hi Webb,

Take his advice, Doulous has nailed this. He is right on with this. If you look in the OT you will find that there is nothing taught about an after life with the exception of resurrection. The OT teaches that when a man dies he is dead until the resurrection. The idea that there is some sort of conscious ghost the is alive after the man dies is a not a Jewish idea but rather a pagan idea. There is no reason that Jesus would be promoting a pagan idea. If you look at the parable just prior to this it is he unfaithful steward, the priesthood in Jesus' day was an unfaithful steward of God's word and they were about to be removed. To say this is a passage about the after life doesn't fit the context. We see Jesus words from chapter 14. It makes no sense that in the middle of all of this He would suddenly stop and breal out into a teaching about the afterlife and then return to the previous topic.

 

[Butch5]

"The important thing is that............. the teaching behind it remains the same............. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2Pd1ScDrp"

Those who desire to move beyond the story being historical or a parable will come up with all sorts of differant meanings.
​

Hi P31,

Let me ask you a question. How does that fit into the context of what is taking place between chapters 14-16?

 

[Webb]

Hi Doulous

In response to your post # 83 I'll take "extreme coincidences".

Hi Webb,

Take his advice, Doulous has nailed this. He is right on with this. If you look in the OT you will find that there is nothing taught about an after life with the exception of resurrection. The OT teaches that when a man dies he is dead until the resurrection. The idea that there is some sort of conscious ghost the is alive after the man dies is a not a Jewish idea but rather a pagan idea. There is no reason that Jesus would be promoting a pagan idea. If you look at the parable just prior to this it is he unfaithful steward, the priesthood in Jesus' day was an unfaithful steward of God's word and they were about to be removed. To say this is a passage about the after life doesn't fit the context. We see Jesus words from chapter 14. It makes no sense that in the middle of all of this He would suddenly stop and breal out into a teaching about the afterlife and then return to the previous topic.

Hi Butch 5--Fortunately I can't accept that doctrine.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Butch 5--Fortunately I can't accept that doctrine.

There is nothing fortunate about believing God will torture people for eternity...

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I don't understand, why did Jesus tell a story if it's fiction.

Here is non-fiction told by Jesus:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." -Matthew 24:37-39

This is not a parable, because a parable by definition is fiction. If it is not fiction, it is not a parable. A story can be fiction and not be a parable(if it's a fictional story that doesn't contain a moral lesson), but a parable can never be non-fiction.

Having said that, this does not prove that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable. Furthermore, if you think that Luke 16:19-31 is true, that's perfectly fine. Just don't call it a "parable".


It is well within Jesus' power to tell a fictional story that has only one useful purpose . . . to teach. This type of story is called a "parable". Remove the fictional part, and it is no longer a parable.

 

[Webb]

Hi Butch 5--Fortunately I can't accept that doctrine.

There is nothing IIIfortunate about believing God will torture people for eternity...

It isn't fortunate for the ungodly.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It isn't fortunate for the ungodly.

Or more importantly for the character of God, who will continue to give life to the ungodly forever so that me might continue to have wrath and indignation and cause more suffering and pain to happen in the age to come then could ever compare to what happened in this age.

Imagine if we had that same standard of Justice? If you were to get tortured for the rest of your life for perhaps stealing... It betrays God's standard of Justice which deems sin worthy of Capital Punishment.. death, not to be tormented without relent forever and ever.

You might affirm this doctrine, but I HIGHLY doubt you actually believe it, because I think it's incompatible with human compassion that God gave to us.

 

[Guest]

OH MY GOD, LISTEN! JESUS USED PHARISEE TEACHING TO SHOW THE FALSEHOOD OF THE PHARISEES. NOW I UNDERSTAND. FALSE GODS, JEWISH FABLES! LUKE 16:19-31 IS TAUGHT BY JESUS AND SHOWN THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PHARISEES! THIS PARABLE IS PART OF PHARISEE BELIEFS! JESUS WAS SHOWING THE TEACHING TO BE FALSE BY EXPOSING IT! I FIGURED IT OUT GUYS!!! PLEASE READ.. http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm

Titus 1:14 - not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I believe all parables are speaking to our hearts in a non fictional way.

I mean, you know how fiction works.

If I read the entire book of Kidnapped aloud to you, and then you heard me say to someone, "I read Kidnapped", you would know that I was saying something non-fictional, even though the book itself is fictional. It's like if you saw someone telling a lie, your experience would obviously be a non-fictional one.

But, within a story, you can have truth + truth + truth + truth for infinity, and it is non-fictional. Once you taint it with something false, the story as a whole is rendered fiction, no matter how much truth it contains.

When a fictional story speaks to your heart, you are receiving something valuable from that story, and yes, that value is non-fictional.

 

[Guest]

POST #132 EVERYBODY. MANY MANY BLESSINGS! :D

 

[VirginShallConceive]

OH MY GOD, LISTEN! JESUS USED PHARISEE TEACHING TO SHOW THE FALSEHOOD OF THE PHARISEES. NOW I UNDERSTAND. FALSE GODS, JEWISH FABLES! LUKE 16:19-31 IS TAUGHT BY JESUS AND SHOWN THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PHARISEES! THIS PARABLE IS PART OF PHARISEE BELIEFS! JESUS WAS SHOWING THE TEACHING TO BE FALSE BY EXPOSING IT! I FIGURED IT OUT GUYS!!! PLEASE READ.. http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm

Titus 1:14 - not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Christadelphia.org?

There is already a thread on the Christadelphians!

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=31946

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OH MY GOD, LISTEN! JESUS USED PHARISEE TEACHING TO SHOW THE FALSEHOOD OF THE PHARISEES. NOW I UNDERSTAND. FALSE GODS, JEWISH FABLES! LUKE 16:19-31 IS TAUGHT BY JESUS AND SHOWN THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PHARISEES! THIS PARABLE IS PART OF PHARISEE BELIEFS! JESUS WAS SHOWING THE TEACHING TO BE FALSE BY EXPOSING IT! I FIGURED IT OUT GUYS!!! PLEASE READ.. http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm

Titus 1:14 - not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

1. This is written by Christadelphians who deny the deity of Christ, I would tread lightly, though sometimes they're not too bad in their exegesis.
2. By affirming what is written in this link you are demonstrating you reject the "traditional eternal torment view." I would read closely.
3. I'm not sure the Pharisee's believed these things, their hope was the final bodily resurrection, that's one of the major points of contention between them and the Sadducees.

 

[Guest]

OH MY GOD, LISTEN! JESUS USED PHARISEE TEACHING TO SHOW THE FALSEHOOD OF THE PHARISEES. NOW I UNDERSTAND. FALSE GODS, JEWISH FABLES! LUKE 16:19-31 IS TAUGHT BY JESUS AND SHOWN THROUGH THE EYES OF THE PHARISEES! THIS PARABLE IS PART OF PHARISEE BELIEFS! JESUS WAS SHOWING THE TEACHING TO BE FALSE BY EXPOSING IT! I FIGURED IT OUT GUYS!!! PLEASE READ.. http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm

Titus 1:14 - not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Christadelphia.org?

There is already a thread on the Christadelphians!

http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=31946

oops i didn't know, well how do you explain the fictional part if it wasn't pharisee teaching. now i'm confused again.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

oops i didn't know, well how do you explain the fictional part if it wasn't pharisee teaching. now i'm confused again.

The "fictional part" is allegorical, using literal events to draw out allegorical truths, with each person and event and detail representing the true message behind the teaching.

 

[Guest]

I certainly don't believe what Christadelphia believes. I'm just back to square one, shucks.

 

[reba]

Urk you are working too hard .... We worship in spirit an truth by FAITH my faith is not in my brain, my education , or my understanding it is in my heart.....