Hades is Sheol

[Doulos Iesou]

Doulos,

I found your post #83 to be very educational and very interesting. That is some excellent insight. I learned a lot. Thank you.

Hi VirginShallConceive,

I'm glad you found it helpful, once you read some of the prophecies about this issue then it REALLY starts to become clear. Maybe, when I find the time I'll give a detailed argument for this interpretation.

 

[Webb]

Hi Doulous

In response to your post # 83 I'll take "extreme coincidences".

So if these are coincidences, what do you make of the issues of the literal interpretation.

1. Do you believe the wicked will have physical bodies in the intermediate state? If so what basis do you have for that?
2. Why is all of the actions in Hades represented by physical terms. The dead rich man has eyes, tongue, and experiences physical torment, as well as the poor man has a finger. Or the fact that this would be a wholly unique teaching on Hades or Sheol.

It's one thing for you to say, "I'll take extreme coincidence" and it's another to present a plausible counter interpretation for the passage. Are you able to do that, I'll put my views out for scrutiny.. Will you?

Hi Doulous
You seem concerned that I didn't respond to your post in detail. First, I no longer have the time and opportunity I once had to devote to the forum. Second, I didn't feel your post was worthy of further comment. I simply gave you my preference of your two options. I shall but briefly answer your two questions in the above post.

1. Do I believe the wicked will have physical bodies in the intermediate state? No, neither the wicked nor the righteous.
2. "Why is all of the actions in Hades represented by physical tems?" For the same reason God Himself is often "represented by physical terms." For the same reason the "street" in heaven is "described by physical terms" etc., etc.
God bless

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulous
You seem concerned that I didn't respond to your post in detail. First, I no longer have the time and opportunity I once had to devote to the forum. Second, I didn't feel your post was worthy of further comment. I simply gave you my preference of your two options. I shall but briefly answer your two questions in the above post.

Ouch.. thanks...

1. Do I believe the wicked will have physical bodies in the intermediate state? No, neither the wicked nor the righteous.

You then have a MASSIVE problem here.

1. Lazarus has a finger that can be dipped in water.
2. The Rich man suffers physical pain.
3. The Rich man has eyes.
4. The Rich man has a tongue.
5. The Rich man is thirsty.

All of these necessitate a physical body.

2. "Why is all of the actions in Hades represented by physical tems?" For the same reason God Himself is often "represented by physical terms."

When it talks about God's hand in the OT for example, that is metaphorical, it is speaking about his power. Or physical representations are the pre-incarnate Christ, because no one had seen the Father.

For the same reason the "street" in heaven is "described by physical terms" etc., etc.
God bless

"Street in heaven" You mean the New Jerusalem described in the New Creation?

Remember this city comes down to earth in Revelation, to dwell among men. However, you're also ignoring the type of literature.. that this is apocalyptic metaphorical literature. Do you think there is a physical chasm between heaven and hades?

 

[Webb]

I have no more "MASSIVE" problem with Lk.16 than with Isa.59:1,2 and Rev.21:21 etc., etc.
God bless.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I have no more "MASSIVE" problem with Lk.16 than with Isa.59:1,2 and Rev.21:21 etc., etc.
God bless.

Behold, the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
2 but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear. Isaiah 59:1-2

Clearly, God does not have a face or hands or ear. God the Father is invisible, and cannot be seen, nor has he ever been seen according to Paul. These are metaphorical as I mentioned earlier, as representing that God has the power to save and they are not beyond his reach. That he is able to hear their pleas for help, but that it is because of their sins God's face has been hidden from them. This metaphor isn't describing that God has hidden his face from them on account of their iniquities, but their sins and iniquities have acted like a dark cloud that has separated them from the gracious favor of Yahweh.

This is clear and consistent metaphorical language used in the OT.

In regards to Revelation 21:12, context is in order..

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Revelation 21:1

The events described in Revelation chapter 21 are taking place in the PHYSICAL realm, the new heavens and new earth, and the city of Jerusalem will be there we see in v.2 and the description in v.12 is describing this city, on the physical planet earth that has been restored.

Do you believe the events in Luke 16 are metaphorical? Or does it change from a description of a literal event, to a metaphorical representation of the intermediate state?

 

[Webb]

So you believe the wicked in hades have literal fleshly bodies and the gold of Rev.21:21 is literal?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

So you believe the wicked in hades have literal fleshly bodies and the gold of Rev.21:21 is literal?

1. The OT teaches us that both the wicked and the righteous go to Hades, all go to one place.
2. I believe that the Rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable, not a literal representation of what the afterlife is like.
3. I have demonstrated that Revelation 21 takes place in the new creation, not "heaven." That it takes places in the physical realm. In regards to how literal the gold is in Revelation 21:12 I think it can represent something in a metaphorical sense, but also I am comfortable with it being literal (though with that particular passage I haven't put in as much thought as I have with Luke 16).

 

[Guest]

2. I believe that the Rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable, not a literal representation of what the afterlife is like.

how do come to this conclusion, blessings.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

2. I believe that the Rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable, not a literal representation of what the afterlife is like.

how do come to this conclusion, blessings.

Hi urk, I first came to the realization while I held to the traditional position on this passage that it was a parable that was used in an allegorical sense. It's not until recently that through studying OT prophecy and looking into possible symbolism and the surrounding context did I come to the belief that this is not a literal event which had happened in the past or in the future.

Indeed, it was the passage that led me down the path of questioning the traditional position all together and realized that so much was built on this passage.

 

[Webb]

So you believe the wicked in hades have literal fleshly bodies and the gold of Rev.21:21 is literal?

1. The OT teaches us that both the wicked and the righteous go to Hades, all go to one place.
2. I believe that the Rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable, not a literal representation of what the afterlife is like.
3. I have demonstrated that Revelation 21 takes place in the new creation, not "heaven." That it takes places in the physical realm. In regards to how literal the gold is in Revelation 21:12 I think it can represent something in a metaphorical sense, but also I am comfortable with it being literal (though with that particular passage I haven't put in as much thought as I have with Luke 16).

If I understand you correctly, I agree with above points 1 and 2 yet fail to see how you have demonstrated point 3. You at least agree that some of Rev. 21 may be metaphorical. If indeed the street is gold, there is also but one street. And, BTW, if understanding you correctly on pts. 1 & 2 thats what I've always understood.
God bless

 

[Guest]

2. I believe that the Rich man and Lazarus is an allegorical parable, not a literal representation of what the afterlife is like.

how do come to this conclusion, blessings.

Hi urk, I first came to the realization while I held to the traditional position on this passage that it was a parable that was used in an allegorical sense. It's not until recently that through studying OT prophecy and looking into possible symbolism and the surrounding context did I come to the belief that this is not a literal event which had happened in the past or in the future.

What connection did you make in the OT w/Luke 16. Do your chapters connect like Isaiah and Ezekiel. sorry about yesterday too.

 

[Grappler]

I don't think Luke 16 has anything to do with the afterlife. I think it is a warning to the Jews of what is going to happen to them.

But Luke 16 specifically says the begger and the rich man died, and the rich man buried. Yes, what is going to happen to them AFTER THEY DIE! Luke 16:22!!

lol...you just don't get it do you urk? It is a parable. A ficitonal story that conveys a spiritual truth.

 

[Guest]

But Luke 16 specifically says the begger and the rich man died, and the rich man buried. Yes, what is going to happen to them AFTER THEY DIE! Luke 16:22!!

lol...you just don't get it do you urk? It is a parable. A ficitonal story that conveys a spiritual truth.

I understand it's a parable, but why fiction. What is your conclusion, why would spiritual truth be fiction. Blessings.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If I understand you correctly, I agree with above points 1 and 2 yet fail to see how you have demonstrated point 3. You at least agree that some of Rev. 21 may be metaphorical. If indeed the street is gold, there is also but one street. And, BTW, if understanding you correctly on pts. 1 & 2 thats what I've always understood.
God bless

Well Revelation 21 is more of an irrelevant point, so let's ignore that one for now. I am a bit confused by your responses, you agree that Luke 16 is describing an allegorical parable. What do you think the passage teaches?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I understand it's a parable, but why fiction. What is your conclusion, why would spiritual truth be fiction. Blessings.

Hi Urk, because a literal rendering as a historical or future story would be wholly incongruent with all other revelation on what Hades-Sheol is, which is the grave. Though, you'll see he said the dead man was BURIED.. and being in Hades...

 

[Guest]

I understand it's a parable, but why fiction. What is your conclusion, why would spiritual truth be fiction. Blessings.

Hi Urk, because a literal rendering as a historical or future story would be wholly incongruent with all other revelation on what Hades-Sheol is, which is the grave. Though, you'll see he said the dead man was BURIED.. and being in Hades...

But why did Jesus say it, if it's not true. Is it possible Hades has two different interpretations in the OT and NT. Grave&Torment. Why do other versions say Hell in Luke 16. Is it safe to say torment and flame separate Hades grave vs. Hades torment. We shouldn't overlook why other versions say hell. Spiritual truth speaks to our hearts. If it's false, then that's saying a lot about the Bible. Blessings.

Notice Luke 16:23 says And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[P31Woman]

[] lol...you just don't get it do you urk? It is a parable. A ficitonal story that conveys a spiritual truth.

The OP does not claim it's merely an parable rather an allegorical parable.

See parable or historical the spiritural truth is the same.

From Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart’s How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth.

9 Mistakes people make when trying to interpet scripture

Allegorizing. “Instead of concentrating on the clear meaning of the narrative, people relegate the text to merely reflecting another meaning beyond the text.”

_______

Most books on interpeting scripture warn us of this mistake. I just picked one at random and did a quick copy/paste.

Liberal scholars pretty much allegorize the entire bible. One can do that if they want.

 

[Guest]

The OP does not claim it's merely an parable rather an allegorical parable.

See parable or historical the spiritural truth is the same.

From Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart’s How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth.

9 Mistakes people make when trying to interpet scripture

Allegorizing. “Instead of concentrating on the clear meaning of the narrative, people relegate the text to merely reflecting another meaning beyond the text.”

_______

Most books on interpeting scripture warn us of this mistake. I just picked one at random and did a quick copy/paste.

Liberal scholars pretty much allegorize the entire bible. One can do that if they want.

So what are you saying here, in regards to Luke 16:19-31..

 

[P31Woman]

"The important thing is that............. the teaching behind it remains the same............. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2Pd1ScDrp"

Those who desire to move beyond the story being historical or a parable will come up with all sorts of differant meanings.
​

 

[Guest]

"The important thing is that............. the teaching behind it remains the same............. Parable or not, Jesus plainly used this story to teach that after death the unrighteous are eternally separated from God, that they remember their rejection of the Gospel, that they are in torment, and that their condition cannot be remedied. In Luke 16:19-31, whether parable or literal account, Jesus clearly taught the existence of heaven and hell as well as the deceitfulness of riches to those who trust in material wealth.​

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Luke-16-19-31-parable.html#ixzz2Pd1ScDrp"​

Those who desire to move beyond the story being historical or a parable will come up with all sorts of differant meanings. ​

that's all i'm saying, ty. and blessings.