Has the Gifts of the Spirit ceased?

[Watchman_2]

So the miracles of Jesus were wonderful works that could have been performed by just anybody? ORLY?

Jesus is God in man. So, I don't think it is a realistic comparison to evaluate that which Jesus could do innately with mankind's innate abilities/skills.

The word means the inherant power to perform miracles.

No -- it does not!

Yes, it does describe power. Power to do what? Ordinary things? No!

I never said that it was ordinary things. I indicated that it meant 'wonderful works'. The word, itself, gives no credence to your belief that it is a 'spiritual gift'. 'Spiritual gifts' do not exist in 1 Cor. 12.

Acts 2 uses the same word that Paul used to describe the gift from God:


When we are told of Stephen in the book of Acts we have some very descriptive language -- See Acts 6:8

(Act 6:8 KJV) - "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."
​

Here we are told that Stephen was full of faith and power -- the word "power" could also be translated strength -- that he did great wonders AND miracles (Strongs #G1441) the same word that Paul said was a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Are we to believe that Stephen did these "miracles" on his own power? Or were they manifestations of the Power of the Holy Spirit within him?

That's really poor hermeneutics. The word rendered as 'miracles' in Acts 6:8 is not the same word rendered as 'miracles' [KJV] in 1 Cor. 12:10.

So, your argument is without merit.

The question is resolved when we look at Acts 19:11: "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:"

If we were to ask Paul (instead of trying to figure out what he said) about the word Miracles (we see in Acts 19 that they were "special miracles") would Paul say that what was being spoken of in Acts 19 were the ordinary talents that he had from birth? What do you think? Stephen did great wonders and Miracles (per the book of Acts).

Perhaps, you did not read the scripture closely -

Act 19:11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:
​

God performed the miracles -- not Paul. I have never claimed that God does not perform supernatural feats as God is supernatural. The definition of 'miracles' leaves room for both 'supernatural' works and 'wonderful works'.

If you examine the context of 1 Cor. 12, you will see that it is the Holy Spirit that channels the abilities each has been given at birth for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ. Some, at birth, have the innate ability which the Holy Spirit directs to perform wonderful works.

If "miracles" means the stuff we are born with - what is there to wonder about? What makes them special? Either the things that those saints did were miraculous and wonders or not. There are many examples of what Paul was talking about in the Bible. Peter performed miracles too. That was a gift given to him by God and the only mention of him doing anything like it came after his Baptism in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

Well, you are missing the message of 1 Cor. 12. The subject is 'spiritual brethren' [v. 1]. The context is the working of the Holy Spirit with the innate abilities each has [v. 2-3]. That context carries itself throughout the chapter when discussing 'gifts'.

Acts 19:11 clearly states that God performed miracles. However, the context of 1 Cor. 12 is not the same. Verses 2 and 3 establish that it is the Holy Spirit which allows one, who would innately be worshipping dumb idols, to be able to say that 'Jesus is Lord'.

As v. 4-6 describe the innate skills/abilities that people have from birth. V. 7-10 indicate that it is the Holy Spirit who channels these innate abilites/skills for the betterment of all. There is nothing supernatural in one's innate abilities. Hence, the proper interpretation in v. 10 is 'wonderful works'.

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength." (Act 3:6-7 KJV)
​

How can we deny that the Bible speaks of miracles?

It was Jesus performing the miracle -- not Peter! I have never claimed that God/Jesus did not perform miracles -- as they are supernatural. However, that is not the subject of 1 Cor. 12. Verses 4-6 establish that people have ordinary innate skills and abilities. It is the Holy Spirit which channels them to perform, in some cases, wonderful works.

How can we say that they are the natural gifts given to all men at the time of birth? No, Paul spoke of spiritual matters and they were listed specifically:

• Word of Wisdom
• Word of Knowledge
• Faith
• Gifts of Healing
• Working of Miracles
• Prophecy
• Discerning of Spirits
• Kinds of Tongues
• Intrepretation of Tongues

It is the Holy Spirit taking the skills and abilities that folks already have and redirecting them for the betterment of all.

All given by the Holy Spirit. vs. 12:4 says there are different gifts --> but from the same Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not give gifts.

vs. 12:6 says different operations but the Same God does the work.

True enough. It is God's gift, the Holy Spirit, doing the work.

Was the gift of Prophecy given at birth to all men, Christian or not?
Was the ability to Discern Spirits given to all? Or did the bible mention special gifts?

See v. 4. There already exist diversities of gifts prior to the Holy Spirit redirecting them.

We are told to earnestly covet them (the gifts that Paul was talking about) in verse 31.

It says the 'best' gifts. Of course, they are not 'spiritual gifts' but the gifts God gives us at birth, which are redirected by the Holy Spirit.

If they were the natural abilities that various men have - that would have changed the list:

• Verbal Skills
• Sports Abilities and Physical Strength
• Mental Abilities
• Classification Skills
• Addition and Math skills
• Problem Solving
• Logical thinking
• Hunting

Well your logic, in addition to your understanding of scripture, fails miserably with this point. If the gift of healing is only a 'spiritual gift', there would be no doctors who are not Christians. The same goes for the other 'gifts'. There would not be a gov't that exists in a non-christian nation according to your fatally flawed logic.

That is NOT what he spoke about. He was talking to the Corintian church of believers and saying that he didn't want them to be ignorant about Spiritual matters. Rendering (or changing) his meaning to: "I don't want you to be ignorant about physical skills that are given to all men at birth and commonly seen everyday in the flesh" cannot be supported without extreme change to the face value of words themselves. Why would Paul care if they were ignorant about natural skills? Was he really saying (in verse 31) that he wanted them to earnestly covet the things they already had???

There is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Word of God. Paul is informing them not to be ignorant that it is the Holy Spirit doing the work. You basically have admitted the same [above].

The underlying premise of your entire argument is that 'spiritual gifts' exist in 12:1, which it does not. So, if one looks at the fact that the topic is 'spiritual brethren', one can easily see how wrong you are on all of your points.

 

[Watchman_2]

With our focus remaining at the word: Pneumatikos translated "Spiritual" in 1Corinthians 12:1 -- we agree that the word is an adjective. It describes something. Strong's Concordance gives four (4) possible meanings. Four (4) things (nouns) it could be describing:

1. Meaning #1 would be: Wind, or windy. Sometimes the word is used to describe the wind itself.
   
2. Another possible meaning could be: The part of man that relates to the human spirit (as opposed to the flesh). Sometimes the word pneumatikos is used to speak of the spirit in man -- first given to all mankind when God breathed the breath of life into Adam.
   
3. The third meaning is seen when the word is translated to mean, "belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God," that is, when man's spirit is influenced by an angel or by a demon.
   
4. The fourth (4th) possible meaning is used to describe those things that belong to God.

[Quoting Strongs]: belonging to the Divine Spirit
a) of God the Holy Spirit
b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
​

We have to consider which of the 4 possible meanings Paul had in mind. We can not invent other meanings to suit our purpose. There are a limited number of choices.

What was it that Paul didn't want us to be ignorant of?
Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of the wind itself?
A: No, he wasn't talking to farmers or sailors in this context.

Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of things concerning the human spirit? --> again, No.

Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of spiritual things that belonged to angels and demons?
A: Well, maybe?? But that intrepretation would be quite a stretch. He did speak of Discernment of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma) (vs 10) being given by the Spirit of God -- but and again, he was speaking of those things that belong to God and were given to men.

CONCLUSION:
So then we are left with the fourth and last possible meaning. When Paul said that he didn't want us to be ignorant of Pneumatikos he could only mean those things that belonged to the Spirit of God.

The subject of 1 Cor. 12:1, in the manuscripts, is simply 'spiritual brethren'. The adjective 'spiritual' describes the noun 'brethren'. It is no more complicaed than that. The addition of 'gifts' was a corruption of the text by the translators due to religious-hack indoctrination passed down from the Roman Catholic Church.

Hence there is no reason to attempt to skate around this fact. Paul goes on to set the context in verses 2 and 3 with respect to the 'spiritual brethren'. The Corinthians, of their own innate abilities/knowledge, would be worshipping dumb idols. It is only by the working of the Holy Spirit that they are able to say that Jesus is Lord.

See Rom. 1:11 -

Rom 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
​

Certainly, as one can see, it was within Paul's vocabulary to say 'spiritual gift' as he did in this scripture. Hence, if Paul intended for 1 Cor. 12:1 to mean 'spiritual gifts', it was surely in his vocabulary to say so. The fact that Paul did not state 'spiritual gifts' in 12:1 means that it is not meant to mean 'spiritual gifts'.

Paul was very concise in the subject of 12:1. It is 'spiritual brethren'!

When we turn to the letter that Paul wrote to Timothy we see that he admonished him to not neglect his gift. Could that Scripture provide the relevant clue? Will it help us choose how we should interpret what Paul said in his other letter? I assert that it does exactly that but remember that there are only four (4) possible choices to be made when translating. The translators of the KJV and others got it right. Paul wasn't saying, "Now concerning spiritual brothers, I would not have you ignorant." We know this because he didn't talk about people. He spoke of those things that belong to the Holy Spirit and were given by the Spirit to men.

In his letter to Timothy, Paul told him that even though he was a young man, he should be sure to set a good example in not only in word and conversation, but also in his acts of love and faith, and in his purity. This is exactly what he admonished the Corinthians to do when he said, "But I show you a more excellent way," and told them to follow after Faith, Hope and Love in chapter 13. He spoke of the Gift that Timothy had recieved from God - and admonished him to not neglect it. All the while saying that he should follow after love.

Again, and to emphisize what Paul actually said, Timothy was told to not neglect his gift that was bestowed on him by Prophecy through the laying of hands.

If we force the gifts that Paul was speaking about to mean the natural talents that are given to every man at birth -- then what means his admonishment to Timothy? He specifically told him to not neglect the gift given to him through Prophecy by the laying on of hands by the elders of the assembly in 1Tim 4:14.

Certainly Paul thought that there were gifts that were given by the Spirit of God to men and spoke of them often. Timothy was told to meditate and take heed unto the doctrine (that Paul had taught) so that Timothy would continue in them, and thereby save himself and those that listened to him.

In 1Tim Paul told Timothy to not neglect his gift. Translating the message to mean something other than a supernatural impartation of a gift (from God) by the Holy Spirit is not possible. Paul specifically described how Timothy recieved the gift.

If we render what Paul said about the Gifts to mean the natural talents that all men have and were given to them at birth -- then we must follow through and apply that meaning to what he wrote to Timothy. Did Paul say that Timothy was supposed to pay attention (not neglect) the gift that God gave him at birth? Or was that gift given to him through Prophecy and by God when the elders laid hands? Even though Paul didn't mention what specific gift he was refering to, we can clearly see that it wasn't something Timothy was born with.

Clearly we are being told that there are various gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:4), that we are to earnestly desire them and chase them (1Cor 12:31) and we can see that God has given at least one of them to Timothy. We see that another gift (that of the working of 'special miracles') was given to Paul in Acts 19:11. We see that unto Stephan also was given the ability to work miracles (Acts 6:8)

It is not 'forcing' gifts to mean ordinary skills/abilities. The Bible declares that they are. What is being 'forced' is your interpretation that the 'gifts' are 'given by the Holy Spirit'. There is no evidence of that in scripture. The Holy Spirit does not give gifts at all. The Holy Spirit, Itself, is a gift -- a gift from God!

A gift cannot give gifts.

We are told that it is the Workings of the Holy Spirit to give the gifts to whom he will - and that we shouldn't argue about who gets what.

A little study in the manuscripts refutes that entirely. There is no evidence that the Holy Spirit gives gifts.

 

[Watchman_2]

For crying out loud, if one can read and has the average ability to comprehend and most of all an honest heart, then one can easily see that special abilities(gifts)were given to the church and are still in effect if christians would believe and seek God in this area.

There is no evidence of that in the Word of God for those that can read and have average comprehension skills and honestly evaluate the Word of God. Crying out loud won't change the fact that those, who have invented a religion out of 'spiritual gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1, are in gross error!

It is the Holy Spirit which makes the difference and redirects the skills and abilities that people are given at birth for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ. That is the message of 1 Cor. 12.

 

[Sam21]

There is no evidence of that in the Word of God for those that can read and have average comprehension skills and honestly evaluate the Word of God. Crying out loud won't change the fact that those, who have invented a religion out of 'spiritual gifts' in 1 Cor. 12:1, are in gross error!

It is the Holy Spirit which makes the difference and redirects the skills and abilities that people are given at birth for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ. That is the message of 1 Cor. 12.

That is NOT the message of 1Cor12, however if you want to believe that way then God has given you that choice,on the other hand you will have to explain that position at the judgment seat of Christ or the White Throne judgment.

 

[taromina2003]

The gifts of the spirit cease in new Christians as soon as someone informs them that according to their learning (from someone else who heard it from another who heard it from another who could have been incorrect) that they are not for now. If you are open to it you will receive them in abundance.. If you think you wont you will get nothing, your talents will be taken from you and given to another. And without your spiritual gifts you will begin to wonder if God really exists because and your only memory of meeting the holy spirits moving in your life is your conversion. You will go to church mundanely until you fall away bored with it all. Without gifts how on earth do you join in and help grow the kingdom of god? People who shun the gifts of the spirit now are on their way out the door...

My goodness! ok there is some truth to your post but as the body of Christ we need to help our brothers and sisters except their gifts and pray to the Father to help them receive them with joy and a sense of purpose, not just write them off because they have refused or can not grasp them. :waving

 

[Watchman_2]

That is NOT the message of 1Cor12, however if you want to believe that way then God has given you that choice,on the other hand you will have to explain that position at the judgment seat of Christ or the White Throne judgment.

True enough! Likewise, you will have to answer for your rejection of Truth, which has been plainly laid out before you, that demonstrates the fraud perpetuated upon the body of Christ in the form of the Pentecostal and Charismacostal religions.

 

[Elijah674]

Two reason's that the gifts are rarely seen, is that it is the Holy Spirit who gives them to whosoever He will, (1 Cor. 12:11) and secondly, how can any one human find a way to give any of these gifts to the ones of Rev. 17:1-5?? (Acts 5:32 requires obedience!)

Persecution refines Gold, and it is then that we will again see real gifts given, + satan's counterfiet ones. (Matt. 24:24) And when they all return as they will, it will be as God has declared it! Early & Latter Rain. Acts 2, Joes 2 + Acts 3:19 'times of refreshing.'

But the gifts are NO TEST for Thruth!

--Elijah

 

[Sparkey]

Well said, Elijah674 and I like the fact that you mentioned the Former and Latter Rain. What farmer would go out into the dry days of August to burn down his crop? The better idea would be to know the season.

 

[jasoncran]

continued ad-hominen attacks wont be tolerated, isnt the fruits of the holy spirit listed in galations 5. read up and lets treat each other like such. i need to work that myself

 

[Sparkey]

Galatians 5 you say?

We see in Galatians 5, verse 9:
"A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump."

Many have been taught to associate leaven with sin -- but that same action can work for good too.

"Another parable spake he unto them;

'The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.'​

I'm working on trying to figure that one out but maybe it is saying that a gentle word turns away much wrath and it is our prayers (more than our arguments) that cause God to act and establish His ways in our hearts.

 

[Sparkey]

...
The Holy Spirit does not give gifts at all. The Holy Spirit, Itself, is a gift -- a gift from God!

A gift cannot give gifts.

A little study in the manuscripts refutes that entirely. There is no evidence that the Holy Spirit gives gifts.

The scripture we are discussing specifically here is quoted from the KJV below:

"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

To another faith by the same Spirit;

to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

Watchman_2, perhaps you don't like the KJV because it uses the words "gifts"? Perhaps you have a private interpretation that will give light to the work of others? But maybe it isn't a private interpretation at all? Maybe it is a publicized work and not your opinion only? If that is the case here, can you quote a better translation that we can look at?

 

[Sparkey]

I'm not sure of the name of the belief, what particular "ISM" it is -- it might come to me in a moment, but some believe that God made the earth and set things in motion and then just kinda stood back and did nothing more. He got the ball rolling and that's it. Is that called Deism? The belief denies the "interference" of God with the laws of the universe. What do we think of that 18th century movement? Does God interact with man?

We don't know much about the life of Jesus. We have very little information about our Savior prior to the start of his public ministry. We don't hear much about the time period that came between his resurrection and later when the Holy Spirit was given. There is something in the beginning of the book of Acts that is of interest though. Read Acts 1:2. Jesus had been showing himself alive by many infallible proofs until the day in which he was taken up. We see that he "opened" the word to his followers and caused them to understand the Scriptures in new ways. But after he was taken up in the clouds Jesus gave commandments to the apostles still. He did that through the Holy Ghost.

Again, Jesus gave the apostles commandments after his was taken up in the clouds. Don't take my word for it, here is the Holy Word of God to confirm the truth: (Act 1:2 KJV) - "(2) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:"


The first part of the book of acts tells us more about this. While Jesus was still with his disciples (after he had risen from the dead) he told them to wait for the "Promise of the Father" which he said he had already told them about. Did they remember then what Jesus had said? Do you think the Lord's explanation rung in their ears?

"If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish?

"Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?

"If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

This was what they had been waiting for and Jesus told them to stay in Jerusalem and continue to wait. It was the very thing that John the Baptist (who preached repentance and preparation for the coming King) said that Jesus would do -- Baptize, not in water, but in the Holy Spirit!

(Mat 3:11 NKJV)"(11) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

So Peter and 120 of the other disciples were waiting for the Promise of the Father, the Gift of the Holy Spirit, waiting for the Baptism (the immersion) in the Spirit of God. It was through the Holy Spirit (per Acts 1:2) that Jesus continued to give his chosen his commands. The last thing that Jesus said before he ascended was that they should wait and that they would be given power! We see the difference in Peter before and after. He that denied Christ and who had been told, "Satan desires to sift you as wheat," had been sifted. Just before the promise was given Peter had been waiting and seeking per the command of his King and Savior. He was told to wait, and wait he did, he was told that he would receive power.

(Act 1:7-9 KJV) - "(7) And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. (8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. (9) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight."

We all know what happened next. What I notice is that there must have be some real joy and excitement and jubilation going on because people who saw them thought they were "full of new wine", they were so excited. Peter said, no -- these men are not drunk as you may think but "this is that" which was spoken of by the prophet Joel. So this outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the Promise of the Father is the same thing that Joel spoke about. Joel had spoken by the Word of the Lord and said, "Your sons and daughters shall prophesy," (Acts 2:17) -- "And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy."

That is the Gift of the Holy Spirit. That very same thing prophesied of by John the Baptist, that Jesus would not immerse in water but would fill us (baptize) with the Holy Spirit was the same thing that the Prophet Joel (and other prophets) spoke of. As we know, Peter continued to preach under the power of the Holy Ghost and they who heard him were stabbed in their hearts -- and they cried out, "What shall we do??" They had just been told, "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

But Peter didn't leave it at that and instead continued to show forth the plan of God: Then Peter said unto them, 'Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call'." (Acts 2:38-39)

The Promise is unto each without exception. Later we see that even Peter didn't understand the scope of God's plan. There was a little issue about Gentiles (the ones Jesus called, "his other flock") that was about to come up. Peter would be shown that they too were to be baptized in water --- and he would know that this was God's plan because he witnessed them too being baptized in the Holy Spirit. That was accepted as incontrovertible proof, but that discussion would be for another thread. For our purpose here it is good to know that the Promise of the Holy Spirit is for "even as many as the Lord shall call."

 

[taromina2003]

continued ad-hominen attacks wont be tolerated, isnt the fruits of the holy spirit listed in galations 5. read up and lets treat each other like such. i need to work that myself

I am so sarcastic sometimes in my replies but I got to say I see alot of arguing and I personally think some enjoy arguing just for the sport of it, but may I suggest studying how to debate an opponant, I mean if you enjoy arguing you might as well learn how to do it properly and plant those seeds and then shake the dust on your shoes after and learn to move on.:waving

 

[Sparkey]

My goodness! ok there is some truth to your post but as the body of Christ we need to help our brothers and sisters except their gifts and pray to the Father to help them receive them with joy and a sense of purpose, not just write them off because they have refused or can not grasp them. :waving

I liked your post and didn't see any scarcasm at all.

You're right -- it's only by His Spirit that we will come to know the plan of God in our lives. We are given the Word of Truth, the more sure word of Prophecy as a plumbline so that we have a way of making certain that what is being discussed is the same thing that the prophets, the same thing that Jesus and the same thing that the disciples believed and spoke.

But I would not be willing to shake the dust from my feet unless I knew that was what God was directing me to do. I hope that my words here (of which I know there have been too many) have not offended.

 

[Watchman_2]

The scripture we are discussing specifically here is quoted from the KJV below:

The scriptures [manuscripts] do not state that the Holy Spirit gives gifts -- plain and simple. You raised 1 Cor. 12:8-11. However, it is verse 7 which establishes the context of the rendering 'given' in verse 8.

As I set forth in a prior post, the rendered clause 'manifestation of the Spirit' does not mean 'gifts given by the Holy Spirit'. It means 'exhibition/expression of the Holy Spirit'.

When one examines the manuscript meaning of the rendered word 'given' in verse 8, one sees -

G1325
δίδωμι
didōmi
did'-o-mee
A prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an alternate in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection): - adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+ with the hand), strike (+ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.
​

As one can see, there is nothing therein the definition which locks it into the meaning you would like it to be. It could have just as easily been rendered as 'bring forth', 'grant', or 'yield', which would not tend to lead the English reader into the corrupted interpretation of 'spiritual gifts'. Keep in mind that the translators already had corrupt understanding when they translated the KJV.

Since the rendering 'given' is indecisive, one needs to examine further manuscript to understand the proper interpretation. That proper interpretation is obtained by the rendered word 'by'. In the manuscripts, it is defined as -

G1223
διά
dia
dee-ah'
A primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through (in very wide applications, local, causal or occasional). In composition it retains the same general import: - after, always, among, at, to avoid, because of (that), briefly, by, for (cause) . . . fore, from, in, by occasion of, of, by reason of, for sake, that, thereby, therefore, X though, through (-out), to, wherefore, with (-in). In composition it retains the same general import.
​

Clearly, the rendering 'by' is definitive as to the relationship between the various gifts and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the 'giver' but is the force that channels the gift or through whom the gift is expressed.

So, who is the 'giver' of the gifts?? Well, Paul tells us in prior scriptures who gives the gifts.

1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
​

Clearly, God is the 'giver' of gifts -- not the Holy Spirit!

So, the only remaining question is relative to the timing of when God gives the gifts. Is it when one becomes a true believer as exhibited by the speaking in tongues [gibberish] or is it at birth??

That answer is provided in scripture as well.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

​

The rendering 'repentance' means 'revocation'. Hence, when God gives a gift, it is irrevocable. But, notice that the 'calling' is also not revocable. When is the 'calling' given by God?? Well, scripture informs us of that as well.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
​

It is by God's grace -- not one's own works that determines the 'calling'. Hence, if one had to become a believer first in order to receive the 'calling and gifts of God', it would be 'election' by works -- not by grace.

In the OT, there is direct evidence that the 'calling and gifts of God' are given at birth.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
​

The irrevocable gifts of God are given before birth. For the deeper student, those gifts are based upon one's souls existence in the first age. As the message of 1 Cor. 12 is very clear, it is the Holy Spirit that channels and redirects one's gifts given at birth for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ.

Watchman_2, perhaps you don't like the KJV because it uses the words "gifts"? Perhaps you have a private interpretation that will give light to the work of others? But maybe it isn't a private interpretation at all? Maybe it is a publicized work and not your opinion only? If that is the case here, can you quote a better translation that we can look at?

I don't use private interpretations. That is why I go back to the manuscripts for understanding. I am happy with the rendering 'gifts' as one can use the Strong's Concordance to see the definition. Certainly, ones' ordinary skills and abilities which God gives all of us to survive and thrive in this flesh existence are 'gifts'.

The problem with the word 'gifts' is that it has been bastardized into meaning 'spiritual gifts'. Anyone can see for themselves that a base tenet of Pentecostalism and Charismacostalism is the existence of 'spiritual gifts', citing 1 Cor. 12:1 as proof, which is exhibited by the speaking of gibberish [they call it 'tongues'].

As there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Word of God, those religions collapse like a house of cards in a light breeze once 'spiritual gifts' is eliminated from their lexicon/faith.

 

[Bonairos]

I wondered then, and now you post this missive, I'm wondering again. Casually, of course - since He is the final arbiter of these things.

Missive. An elucidative word in itself (not to be confussed with dis-missive! HAHA). I like it!

And with that ("I like it" and "He is the final arbiter of these things"), we'll end our side-bar conversation publicly.

PMs always welcome.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[taromina2003]

I liked your post and didn't see any scarcasm at all.

You're right -- it's only by His Spirit that we will come to know the plan of God in our lives. We are given the Word of Truth, the more sure word of Prophecy as a plumbline so that we have a way of making certain that what is being discussed is the same thing that the prophets, the same thing that Jesus and the same thing that the disciples believed and spoke.

But I would not be willing to shake the dust from my feet unless I knew that was what God was directing me to do. I hope that my words here (of which I know there have been too many) have not offended.

You have not offended at all, but I must have with all my spelling mistakes:o in my posts, I get to typing and only after I post do I realize the grammar mistakes .

thank you for your response and honesty. I agree with what you say and you are right we need to take some time before we write anyone off.....Patience is a virtue.

 

[Sparkey]

Watchman? Ahhhh... hate to break it to you but Strongs Concordance is not a Greek Manuscript. I can tell it's no use talking to you further about it. I've thought this the case for awhile but you've confirmed it with your last post to the point that even a die-hard like me says, "time to give up now."

To borrow a closing line from a friend,
Be Blessed, Stay Blessed!

 

[Free]

Keep in mind that the translators already had corrupt understanding when they translated the KJV.

Poisoning the well. And of course you have a better understanding than the translators.

Your appeals to the Greek are not worth much if you haven't been formally taught Greek. Such appeals are exegetical fallacies.

Ahhhh... hate to break it to you but Strongs Concordance is not a Greek Manuscript. I can tell it's no use talking to you further about it.

 

[Watchman_2]

Watchman? Ahhhh... hate to break it to you but Strongs Concordance is not a Greek Manuscript.

Who said it was??

Unless one is fluent in Greek, one requires a translational tool in order to know the meaning of the manuscript Word of God. Strong's is considered by many to be that best tool.

So, by using Strong's, one has a better source for understanding the Word of God than just reading the English rendering alone. One cannot catch the errors in translation and in denominational interpretation without such a tool.

I can tell it's no use talking to you further about it. I've thought this the case for awhile but you've confirmed it with your last post to the point that even a die-hard like me says, "time to give up now."

Well, what the discourse has gone to prove is that you [and the others] are in gross error regarding 'spiritual gifts'. So, for the objective viewers who seek Truth, the information is very useful.

To borrow a closing line from a friend,
Be Blessed, Stay Blessed!

Thank you and have a nice trip through life yourself.