Has the Gifts of the Spirit ceased?

[Sparkey]

If the objection to the translation of the word "Gift" is the problem because the Greek work "χάρισμα charisma" sounds like the English word, "Charismatic" because of suspected equivication:

EQUIVOCATION is classified as both a formal and informal logical fallacy. It is the misleading use of a term with more than one meaning or sense (by glossing over which meaning is intended at a particular time).​

May I suggest that we simply translate the word as "X" for the time being.

When Paul, in 1Cor 12:31, states, "(31) But covet earnestly the best "X": and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way." It doesn't matter if he used the word "Gifts" or "Chrisma" or any word - we are directed to earnest desire and covet the "best" of them. We are being told to chase after Spiritual somethings and to desire them.

Certainly, we cannot then conclude that there is nothing being spoken of and taught about here. Paul loves to make lists and he just got done giving us a concise list of those things he was talking about. Call them "Gifts of the Spirit" or call them πνευματικός pneumatikos "Spirituals" ----> it doesn't matter. We are told that we should be sure to include Love and Hope and Faith as we chase after them.

 

[Sparkey]

• Word of Wisdom: logos sophia
• Word of Knowledge: logos gnōsis
• Faith: pistis
• Gifts of Healing: charisma iama
• Workings of Miracles: energēma dynamis
• Prophecy: prophēteia
• Discerning of Spirits: diakrisis pneuma
• Divers Kinds of Tongues: genos glōssa
• Interpretation of Tongues: hermēneia glōssa

These are all the works of the Spirit of God:
(1Cr 12:11 KJV) - "(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

They are distributed according to the Spirit (as He will).

Paul spoke in allegory and compared the functions of each of the "charisma" of the Spirit to different functions of our earthly bodies. One would be like an eye, another like a foot, another compared to an ear --> and he asked, If every member of the body were a single part would that be good? No, if we had eyes for feet and eyes for ears, how strange and functionless would that be.

(1Cr 12:11, 14, 18 KJV) - "(11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. ... (14) For the body is not one member, but many. ... (18) But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."

 

[Watchman_2]

1COR 12 is addressed to the brethren, and Paul tells them that he does not want them to be ignorant of spiritual gifts, then goes on to list these gifts,which most of the chapter is spent in listing these gifts to the brethren, so the subject is the gifts,call them what you will ,I will call them the nine gifts of the spirit and then there is the five fold ministry gifts.

Actually, that is not the case. Paul's letter is to the church in Corinth and the subject of chapter 12 is 'spiritual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'. So, by deleting the inappropriately added word 'gifts', verse 1 reads -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
​

As one can plainly see, Paul does not state that he does not want them to be ignorant of 'spiritual gifts' as you claim. Paul only establishes the subject, which is 'spiritual brethren'. One has to go to verses 2 and 3 to see the context of the ignorance which Paul was speaking of.

1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
​

Paul explains to the Corinthians that, as Gentiles, they were worshipping dumb idols. But, it is only by the working of the Holy Spirit that they are able to say that Jesus is Lord. This is what Paul was teaching to the Corinthians to not be ignorant of -- the working of the Holy Spirit.

Thus the first 3 verses of Chapter 12 establish the subject, which is 'spiritual brethren', and the context, which is the working of the Holy Spirit.

Notice in verse 7 Paul uses the words manifestaion of the Spirit are you ok with this wording? I hope so because according to the Greek interlinear bible,

Phanerosis tou pneumatos
manifestation of the spirit

The English rendering of that clause leaves a bit of ambiguity. The problem is not in the rendering of 'manifestation' or 'Spirit', but is in the word 'of', which is misleading to the English reader.

In English, the word 'of' has a wide variety of application. In this clause, 'of', to an English reader, could mean 'out from', 'delivered from', or 'given by', which is how those in the 'spiritual gifts' religions take it. Or, 'of' could mean the implied 'possessed by' or 'belonging to'.

This is complicated even more by the word rendered 'manifestation'. A check of the definition in the manuscripts yields -

G5321
φανερωσις
phanerōsis
fan-er'-o-sis
From G5319; exhibition, that is, (figuratively) expression, (by extension) a bestowment: - manifestation.
​

As one can see, a 'bestowment' would be a 'gift'. Hence, if the word 'of' truly means 'out from' or 'given by', then the clause 'manifestation of the Spirit' would mean 'gift out from the Spirit' or 'gift given by the Spirit'.

On the other hand, if 'of' means the implied 'possessed by' and 'manifestation' means 'exhibition' or 'gift', then the clause 'manifestion of the Spirit' would mean 'the Spirit's exhibition' or 'the gift of the Spirit'.

The dichotomy of this clause in English is striking. So, which is it??

The matter is resolved by examining the manuscripts. In Greek, the possessive relationship between two nouns is implied. Hence, if the noun 'manifestation' belongs to 'the Spirit', there would be no word 'of' to connect the two in Greek. In English, we use 'of' to describe this relationship between two nouns.

However, if one noun is 'out from' of 'given by' another noun, such as 'gift given by the Spirit', there is a Greek word denoting that relationship between the two nouns. One can see that connective relationship often in the NT as it is also rendered as 'of'.

See Rom. 11:1 -

Rom 11:1 I sayG3004 then,G3767 Hath(G3361) GodG2316 cast awayG683 hisG848 people?G2992 God forbid.G1096 G3361 ForG1063 IG1473 alsoG2532 amG1510 an Israelite,G2475 ofG1537 the seedG4690 of Abraham,G11of the tribeG5443 of Benjamin.G958
​

In the emboldened clause, one sees both the 'out from' rendering [G1537] 'of' and the possessive implied meaning 'of', which has no Strong's number.

Hence, to determine the correct interpretation of the clause 'manifestation of the Spirit' in 1 Cor. 12:7, one needs to check the manuscripts to see if the rendering 'of' is the implied 'of', denoting possession, or the 'out from' 'of', denoting 'given by'.

1Co 12:7 ButG1161 theG3588 manifestationG5321 of theG3588 SpiritG4151 is givenG1325 to every manG1538 toG4314 profitG4851 withal.
​

As one can see, the rendering 'of' does not have a Strong's number associated therewith. Hence, it is the implied possessive form linking 'manifestation' to 'the Spirit'. If it meant 'out from' or 'given by', the actual word, G1537 [ek], would be in the manuscripts.

Accordingly, the clause 'manifestaion of the Spirit' means 'the Spirit's exhibition' or 'the gift of the Spirit'. If one looks at the overall context of 1 Cor. 12:7, one sees that the latter is the best fit. The clause never means 'gifts given by the Spirit'.

You might also want to notice that in the Greek interlinear bible in chapter 12
that the word brethren is used 1 time, the word spirit is used 12 times the word gift is used 5 times then you have the 9 gifts listed and the 5 fold ministry listed, so how do you figure that the chapter is talking about the brethren,instead of addressing the brethren about these things?

See above.

by the way what do you call a gift that is given by the Holy Spirit?
or if you rather, what do you call something that the holy spirit gives?

The Holy Spirit does not give gifts!! That is the bastardization of scripture perpetuated in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal denominations.

 

[Watchman_2]

Not in a million years, the abilities are GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT at the time needed,it is a work of God not some man inherited ability.

Actually, there is not one instance in the Bible manuscripts where the Holy Spirit gives anyone abilities. Certainly, 1 Cor. 12 makes no mention of it.

In fact, the Holy Spirit, itself, is a gift from God.

 

[Sparkey]

Actually, that is not the case. Paul's letter is to the church in Corinth and the subject of chapter 12 is 'spiritual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'. So, by deleting the inappropriately added word 'gifts', verse 1 reads -

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
​

The Holy Spirit does not give gifts!! That is the bastardization of scripture perpetuated in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal denominations.

It could as easily be rendered:

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual (Pneumatikos) brethren I would not have you ignorant. ​

The word translated "spiritual" means "Things relating to or belonging to the Spirit of" -- so either he was speaking about the spirits of men (as you say) or he was speaking about the things belonging to the Spirit of God. So following English conventions you're asking if the word, "pneumatikos" should be capitalized or not. Did Paul speak about those things of the spirit (small case) or did he speak of the things of the Spirit (Upper Case)??

Let the context of chapter 12 show which.

 

[Sparkey]

If we were to instist that Paul was saying, "Concerning spiritual men, brethren - I would not have you ignorant..."

Why then did he continue to expound about the different operations (energēma) of the Holy Spirit?

"And there are diversities of operations (energēma), but it is the same God which worketh (energeō) all in all."​

(1Cr 12:6 KJV)​

If verse 1 defined his meaning as "concerning spiritual brethren" why did he list the various gifts that could only originate from the Spirit of God in verses 8, 9 and 10? He said that all came from God in 11.

"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."​

(1Cr 12:11 KJV)​

What did Paul mean when he said, "all these" ?? Can we conclude that he meant all these differing spiritual men (as opposed to spiritual gifts) came from God? What men? The context shows that even if your translation is what was meant, that Paul was saying he did not want us ignorant of certain spiritual MEN, the men he mentioned would be those who were operating the specific gifts of the Holy Spirit.

They (the members of the body) who were given Prophecy or who were given the Gift of Faith for instance. In verse 8 Paul spoke about the one who had been given the Word of Wisdom (logos sophia) and he specifically used the word "didōmi" (translated: given) through the Spirit.

It was given through (dia) the Spirit.
____________________________________________
For .... γάρ gar

to one .... ὅς hos

[man] .... μέν men

is given .... δίδωμι didōmi

by (or through) .... διά dia

the Spirit .... πνεῦμα pneuma

the word .... λόγος logos

of wisdom .... σοφία sophia
_____________________________________

That is just one example but Paul listed nine (9) examples of the things that belong to the Holy Spirit that were given (didōmi) to men.

 

[Watchman_2]

what manuscripts should we all believe in?

The NT Word of God was originally scribed in Greek.

please tell me what version of the bible you will read and believe in?

Since I am only fluent in English, I only read English renderings. Since all translational renderings are done by errant man, I don't necessarily "believe in" any of them.

Since many English renderings are altered from another English rendering [not independent translations], they become second or third generation renderings, which means they are even more prone to error than a first generation rendering. Hence, I do not put much weight in those renderings as, in most cases, the alterations from an earlier generation rendering are religious-hack-motivated changes.

So, to me, the most important factor in determing which Bible to read is to have the ability to correlate the English words to the original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. It is only by use of a good Concordance that the English speaker can glean the meaning of words in the original languages, from which more sound interpretation and understanding of the Word can be obtained.

I use the standard KJV Bible, not because it does not contain errors, but because I can go back to the original manuscripts through the Strong's numering system, which is keyed into the KJV, and glean the meaning/interpretation from the dictionary contained in the Strong's Concordance.

you did not answer my question about the term that is used in the Greek interlinear bible that referred to the manifestation of the Spirit

could you please answer that one for me?

Done -- see my previous post to you.

before I go one do you believe that the Greek Interlinear bible is bastardized too or can it be trusted?

See above -- all English renderings are error prone. I do not have a Greek Interlinear Bible in my library, nor do I have an online version. So, I cannot comment as to how good or bad a rendering it is.

 

[Watchman_2]

Watchman

I tend to agree with your approach to scripture: but in this case I think you're flogging a dead horse.

The AV perfectly correctly puts the word 'gifts' in italics, meaning that there is no corresponding greek word for 'gifts' just there. But that may merely be an ellipsis, rather than necessarily attaching 'spiritual' to 'brethren'.

'Spiritual' could be legitimately attached to 'brethren', but I think the most sensible way to proceed, is to examine what the different translators produce here.

The AV may be wrong - it usually isn't, but it could be. So rather than enter into too much rancour and production of ill-feeling, here is a listing of the various translations I have in the Online Bible. I hope it helps.

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant. AKJV

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. ASV

1 ¶ But about the things of the spirit, my brothers, it is not right for you to be without teaching. BBE

1 ¶ but, brothers, I do not want you to go on being ignorant about the things of the spirit. CJB

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. EMTV

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. ESV

1 ¶ It is important, brethren, that you should have clear knowledge on the subject of spiritual gifts. WEYMOUTH

1 Now, concerning the spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not desire you to be ignorant. WUEST

There must be others, but I don't have them.

They seem unanimous on the point, and I think it's the context that drives their rendition.

I am aware of the similarities in other English renderings. What one can glean from the fact that all those renderings include 'spiritual gifts', when no such thing exists in the manuscripts, is that the renderings are not independent translations of the manuscripts. Hence, I put no weight in it.

If you look down the passage, there shortly follows a huge series of things which look suspiciously like 'gifts'. In fact there are a few 'givens' in them:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [is given - an ellipsis] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another [is given - an ellipsis] faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another [is given - an ellipsis] the working of miracles; to another [is given - an ellipsis] prophecy; to another [is given - an ellipsis] discerning of spirits; to another [is given - an ellipsis]divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [= giving] to every man severally as he will.

So with all that before us, we can easily comprehend why the translators almost unanimously insert gifts into the passage.

No one is denying that 'gifts' exist. They just are not given by the Holy Spirit [for being a true Christian as taught in Pentecostalism]. That is the bastardization of the concept of 'gifts'.

What 1 Cor. 12 is teaching is that it is the Holy Spirit who takes the ordinary skills [gifts] that God gives everyone at birth and makes them work for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ. None of the 'gifts' are special abilities -- but are ordinary skills that all, Christian and non-christian alike, have.

 

[Sparkey]

No one is denying that 'gifts' exist. They just are not given by the Holy Spirit

...

What 1 Cor. 12 is teaching is that it is the Holy Spirit who takes the ordinary skills [gifts] that God gives everyone at birth and makes them work for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ. None of the 'gifts' are special abilities -- but are ordinary skills that all, Christian and non-christian alike, have.

Trying to make "Miracles" into the ordinary talent given at birth is impossible. We have to take the face value of the word "miracle" or as some translate, the "working of Miracles" to mean something other than what every common man possesses or there would not be any miraculous nature.

 

[Watchman_2]

It could as easily be rendered:

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual (Pneumatikos) brethren I would not have you ignorant.
​

The word translated "spiritual" means "Things relating to or belonging to the Spirit of" -- so either he was speaking about the spirits of men (as you say) or he was speaking about the things belonging to the Spirit of God. So following English conventions you're asking if the word, "pneumatikos" should be capitalized or not. Did Paul speak about those things of the spirit (small case) or did he speak of the things of the Spirit (Upper Case)??

Let the context of chapter 12 show which.

The Greek pneumatikos is an adjective. See the definition thereof in Strong's Concordance -

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

​

So, I do not think that upper case is in order for 'spiritual'.

 

[Watchman_2]

Trying to make "Miracles" into the ordinary talent given at birth is impossible. We have to take the face value of the word "miracle" or as some translate, the "working of Miracles" to mean something other than what every common man possesses or there would not be any miraculous nature.

See Strong's for the meaning -

G1411
δύναμις
dunamis
doo'-nam-is
From G1410; force (literally or figuratively); specifically miraculous power (usually by implication a miracle itself): - ability, abundance, meaning, might (-ily, -y, -y deed), (worker of) miracle (-s), power, strength, violence, mighty (wonderful) work.
​

It simply means 'force', either literally of figuratively. There is nothing in the context which suggests that it is a supernatural miracle as you purport.

It is best rendered, in context, as 'wonderful works' -- not 'miracles'. Since the gifts of God are given at birth, irrespective of whether one is a professed Christian or not, it would not be an ability to perform 'miracles'.

 

[Sparkey]

It simply means 'force', either literally of figuratively. There is nothing in the context which suggests that it is a supernatural miracle as you purport.

It is best rendered, in context, as 'wonderful works' -- not 'miracles'. Since the gifts of God are given at birth, irrespective of whether one is a professed Christian or not, it would not be an ability to perform 'miracles'.

So the miracles of Jesus were wonderful works that could have been performed by just anybody? ORLY?

The word means the inherant power to perform miracles. Yes, it does describe power. Power to do what? Ordinary things? No! Acts 2 uses the same word that Paul used to describe the gift from God:

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:"

When we are told of Stephen in the book of Acts we have some very descriptive language -- See Acts 6:8

(Act 6:8 KJV) - "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."​

Here we are told that Stephen was full of faith and power -- the word "power" could also be translated strength -- that he did great wonders AND miracles (Strongs #G1441) the same word that Paul said was a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Are we to believe that Stephen did these "miracles" on his own power? Or were they manifestations of the Power of the Holy Spirit within him?

The question is resolved when we look at Acts 19:11: "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:"

If we were to ask Paul (instead of trying to figure out what he said) about the word Miracles (we see in Acts 19 that they were "special miracles") would Paul say that what was being spoken of in Acts 19 were the ordinary talents that he had from birth? What do you think? Stephen did great wonders and Miracles (per the book of Acts).

If "miracles" means the stuff we are born with - what is there to wonder about? What makes them special? Either the things that those saints did were miraculous and wonders or not. There are many examples of what Paul was talking about in the Bible. Peter performed miracles too. That was a gift given to him by God and the only mention of him doing anything like it came after his Baptism in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost.

"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength." (Act 3:6-7 KJV)​

How can we deny that the Bible speaks of miracles? How can we say that they are the natural gifts given to all men at the time of birth? No, Paul spoke of spiritual matters and they were listed specifically:

• Word of Wisdom
• Word of Knowledge
• Faith
• Gifts of Healing
• Working of Miracles
• Prophecy
• Discerning of Spirits
• Kinds of Tongues
• Intrepretation of Tongues

All given by the Holy Spirit. vs. 12:4 says there are different gifts --> but from the same Spirit.
vs. 12:6 says different operations but the Same God does the work

Was the gift of Prophecy given at birth to all men, Christian or not?
Was the ability to Discern Spirits given to all? Or did the bible mention special gifts?

We are told to earnestly covet them (the gifts that Paul was talking about) in verse 31. If they were the natural abilities that various men have - that would have changed the list:

• Verbal Skills
• Sports Abilities and Physical Strength
• Mental Abilities
• Classification Skills
• Addition and Math skills
• Problem Solving
• Logical thinking
• Hunting

That is NOT what he spoke about. He was talking to the Corintian church of believers and saying that he didn't want them to be ignorant about Spiritual matters. Rendering (or changing) his meaning to: "I don't want you to be ignorant about physical skills that are given to all men at birth and commonly seen everyday in the flesh" cannot be supported without extreme change to the face value of words themselves. Why would Paul care if they were ignorant about natural skills? Was he really saying (in verse 31) that he wanted them to earnestly covet the things they already had???

 

[Sparkey]

I wish to use scripture to prove that the Gifts have not ceased. Only that many people have ceased to seek them.

The OP had the right of it. The Gifts of the Holy Spirit (mentioned, listed, and discussed throughout chapter 12 of 1Corintians) have not ceased. Many men have ceased (contrary to what they are told to do in verse 31) to seek them. Paul specifically asks, "Are all workers of miracles?" in verse 29. The only possible answer to the rhetorical question is "no". Trying to say that all men, Christian or not, are workers of miracles by virtue of their natural talents is simply wrong.


Trying to make verse 31 mean "Seek and desire the gifts that you were born with," doesn't work. The admonishment "covet earnestly" means to burn with desire for - to be zealous of. Saying that we should have that kind of desire for the fleshly abilities denies the fact that the Spirit of God is at emnity (enemies with) the flesh.

 

[Bonairos]

I have been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. I hope that helps.

Fair enough. And so I will address you from one to another who names the Name of Christ.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please elucidate.

Elucidate. Good word, though it’s rare that I hear it used on forums.

First, I’ll respond to your post and then summarize my point.

You asked why would you inquire of the Lord (or my postings) concerning my relationship with Him. Well, For the simple fact that you stated you “wonder” what God sees in my heart (inference?).

As for me feeling guilty about my post; hardly so! For guilt would imply I have the responsibility or remorse for having committed a wrong. I think not; in fact on the contrary. My purpose was to make you aware of how you could be perceived and therefore not received! I never once challenged your position. Just questioned your expression.

As for not answering a question(?), what ever it was; it's irrelevant. My post was in response to the manner in which one (born of incorruptible seed) presented himself (before Christ or His people).

As for “Who was deceiving who?” Does it really matter; considering the point of my post? We don’t know the intent of those involved EXCEPT that of your “friend” (as you relayed) who purposely tried to discredit Believers (based on his/her preconceptions) with DECEIT!

“Don’t worry God, I’ll expose an error on Your behalf! And I’ll do it by being deceitful myself!” Surely you see the error in that. Unless of course you are of the persuasion that the end justifies the means.

True, I wasn’t there. But neither were you. Yet you attempt to prove a point with (known) deception. It gives no credence to your stated position. But that’s me. Others can conclude for themselves.

I’ll end with this (again speaking to a Believer). You name the Name of Christ. And to come close, if not cross the line of mocking those gathered in hopes of deepening their relationship with Christ (whether you agree or not) is hardly something worth repeating.

True, I wasn’t there. But neither were you.

You claim to speak truth (on dealings of the Spirit), yet it appears you see no error in HOW you do it, as long as you (attempt to) make your point.

You dissect the Word of God to hold firm to your position, yet it appears you forget it is the God of the Word in Whom we are called to present ourselves. And that (especially so) to fellow Believers.

Your argument is about the “gifts” of the Spirit. Yet your post appeared callous to the Spirit’s gentleness.

Now some may say that I am being judgmental myself . HA! It is to a professed (astute?) Christian that I am addressing. One who is in a position to represent Christ with his knowledge. If one is to be received, then one must be receivable.

We all know that it’s not just what’s given, it’s also what’s received. “For God so loved the world that He gave . . .” Yet not all have received.

I am aware some moderators may conclude that this would be best suited in a PM. I beg to differ.

Considering the purpose of this post (and how it came about in the thread), I believe it is not only appropriate but in line with the topic as well.

For if we speak of the Spirit, and not operate (for lack of a better word) in Him, this thread is doomed to become nothing more than a clanging cymbal! And this I say to myself.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Sparkey]

The Greek pneumatikos is an adjective. See the definition thereof in Strong's Concordance -

G4152
πνευματικός
pneumatikos
phyoo-mat-ik-os'
From G4151; non-carnal, that is, (humanly) ethereal (as opposed to gross), or (daemoniacally) a spirit (concretely), or (divinely) supernatural, regenerate, religious: - spiritual. Compare G5591.

​

So, I do not think that upper case is in order for 'spiritual'.

With our focus remaining at the word: Pneumatikos translated "Spiritual" in 1Corinthians 12:1 -- we agree that the word is an adjective. It describes something. Strong's Concordance gives four (4) possible meanings. Four (4) things (nouns) it could be describing:

1. Meaning #1 would be: Wind, or windy. Sometimes the word is used to describe the wind itself.
   
2. Another possible meaning could be: The part of man that relates to the human spirit (as opposed to the flesh). Sometimes the word pneumatikos is used to speak of the spirit in man -- first given to all mankind when God breathed the breath of life into Adam.
   
3. The third meaning is seen when the word is translated to mean, "belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God," that is, when man's spirit is influenced by an angel or by a demon.
   
4. The fourth (4th) possible meaning is used to describe those things that belong to God.

[Quoting Strongs]: belonging to the Divine Spirit
a) of God the Holy Spirit
b) one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God
​

We have to consider which of the 4 possible meanings Paul had in mind. We can not invent other meanings to suit our purpose. There are a limited number of choices.

What was it that Paul didn't want us to be ignorant of?
Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of the wind itself?
A: No, he wasn't talking to farmers or sailors in this context.

Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of things concerning the human spirit? --> again, No.

Q: Did he say he didn't want us to be ignorant of spiritual things that belonged to angels and demons?
A: Well, maybe?? But that intrepretation would be quite a stretch. He did speak of Discernment of Spirits (diakrisis pneuma) (vs 10) being given by the Spirit of God -- but and again, he was speaking of those things that belong to God and were given to men.

CONCLUSION:
So then we are left with the fourth and last possible meaning. When Paul said that he didn't want us to be ignorant of Pneumatikos he could only mean those things that belonged to the Spirit of God.

____________________________________

When we turn to the letter that Paul wrote to Timothy we see that he admonished him to not neglect his gift. Could that Scripture provide the relevant clue? Will it help us choose how we should interpret what Paul said in his other letter? I assert that it does exactly that but remember that there are only four (4) possible choices to be made when translating. The translators of the KJV and others got it right. Paul wasn't saying, "Now concerning spiritual brothers, I would not have you ignorant." We know this because he didn't talk about people. He spoke of those things that belong to the Holy Spirit and were given by the Spirit to men.

In his letter to Timothy, Paul told him that even though he was a young man, he should be sure to set a good example in not only in word and conversation, but also in his acts of love and faith, and in his purity. This is exactly what he admonished the Corinthians to do when he said, "But I show you a more excellent way," and told them to follow after Faith, Hope and Love in chapter 13. He spoke of the Gift that Timothy had recieved from God - and admonished him to not neglect it. All the while saying that he should follow after love.

Again, and to emphisize what Paul actually said, Timothy was told to not neglect his gift that was bestowed on him by Prophecy through the laying of hands.

If we force the gifts that Paul was speaking about to mean the natural talents that are given to every man at birth -- then what means his admonishment to Timothy? He specifically told him to not neglect the gift given to him through Prophecy by the laying on of hands by the elders of the assembly in 1Tim 4:14.

Certainly Paul thought that there were gifts that were given by the Spirit of God to men and spoke of them often. Timothy was told to meditate and take heed unto the doctrine (that Paul had taught) so that Timothy would continue in them, and thereby save himself and those that listened to him.

"Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

In 1Tim Paul told Timothy to not neglect his gift. Translating the message to mean something other than a supernatural impartation of a gift (from God) by the Holy Spirit is not possible. Paul specifically described how Timothy recieved the gift.

If we render what Paul said about the Gifts to mean the natural talents that all men have and were given to them at birth -- then we must follow through and apply that meaning to what he wrote to Timothy. Did Paul say that Timothy was supposed to pay attention (not neglect) the gift that God gave him at birth? Or was that gift given to him through Prophecy and by God when the elders laid hands? Even though Paul didn't mention what specific gift he was refering to, we can clearly see that it wasn't something Timothy was born with.

Clearly we are being told that there are various gifts of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:4), that we are to earnestly desire them and chase them (1Cor 12:31) and we can see that God has given at least one of them to Timothy. We see that another gift (that of the working of 'special miracles') was given to Paul in Acts 19:11. We see that unto Stephan also was given the ability to work miracles (Acts 6:8)



We are told that it is the Workings of the Holy Spirit to give the gifts to whom he will - and that we shouldn't argue about who gets what. What if your own ear said, "Because I'm not an eye, I'm not part of your body!" --- would that make it belong to sombody else? Would it or would it not still be part of your body?

So also, it doesn't matter if one brother speaks in tongues or another brother prophecies (except Paul states that we should all desire to prophecy - because it functions to build the body as a whole) --- but the point is that there is One Body and One Spirit no matter the gift.

 

[Sam21]

For crying out loud, if one can read and has the average ability to comprehend and most of all an honest heart, then one can easily see that special abilities(gifts)were given to the church and are still in effect if christians would believe and seek God in this area.

 

[reba]

For crying out loud, if one can read and has the average ability to comprehend and most of all an honest heart, then one can easily see that special abilities(gifts)were given to the church and are still in effect if christians would believe and seek God in this area.

Amen

 

[n2thelight]

Originally Posted by taromina2003
when someone starts speaking in tongues and I get what they are saying how the heck do I know they are speakin tongues?:biglol anyway God Bless you as well.

The next time true tongues will be spoken is in the below verse


Mark 13:9 "But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them."


Mark 13:11 "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost [Spirit]."

When this time comes into being in the very near future, it will not be the elect of God that does the speaking, but the Holy Spirit speaking in and through the mouths of His elect. Every one of these individuals will be delivered before these false councils before the final day of this earth age. This is why Peter would say to the people in Acts 2, on Pentecost day; "This is that which was spoken of by Joel the Prophet."

Acts 2:16: "But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;"

We can read this prophecy in Joel 2:28-32. These sons and daughters shall speak in a cloven tongue, as recorded in Acts 2:6; meaning that the language that they shall speak in will need no interpreter, for every one that hears will hear in their native tongue of the dialect of the neighborhood they grew up in. This is the way that the gospel will go forth in the last days, for it is the evidence of the presence of the Holy Spirit. These sons and daughters will speak, as stated in Mark 13:11, but whatsoever words they do speak in that hour, it will be the Holy Spirit that speaks through them.

Acts 2:17"And it shall come to pass in the last days,' saith God, `I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and you old men shall dream dreams:"

 

[Chris]

The gifts of the spirit cease in new Christians as soon as someone informs them that according to their learning (from someone else who heard it from another who heard it from another who could have been incorrect) that they are not for now. If you are open to it you will receive them in abundance.. If you think you wont you will get nothing, your talents will be taken from you and given to another. And without your spiritual gifts you will begin to wonder if God really exists because and your only memory of meeting the holy spirits moving in your life is your conversion. You will go to church mundanely until you fall away bored with it all. Without gifts how on earth do you join in and help grow the kingdom of god? People who shun the gifts of the spirit now are on their way out the door...

 

[Asyncritus]

Elucidate. Good word, though it’s rare that I hear it used on forums.

Thanks.

First, I’ll respond to your post and then summarize my point.

You asked why would you inquire of the Lord (or my postings) concerning my relationship with Him. Well, For the simple fact that you stated you “wonder” what God sees in my heart (inference?).

I wondered then, and now you post this missive, I'm wondering again. Casually, of course - since He is the final arbiter of these things.

As for me feeling guilty about my post; hardly so! For guilt would imply I have the responsibility or remorse for having committed a wrong. I think not; in fact on the contrary. My purpose was to make you aware of how you could be perceived and therefore not received! I never once challenged your position. Just questioned your expression.

I think you misunderstood me there. I thought you were attributing guilt (by association) to me, and that was the purpose of writing 'Guilty?'

As for “Who was deceiving who?” Does it really matter; considering the point of my post? We don’t know the intent of those involved EXCEPT that of your “friend” (as you relayed) who purposely tried to discredit Believers (based on his/her preconceptions) with DECEIT!

You are evading the issue with your 'does it matter'. It does matter, a great deal.

The action exposed the interpreter and the interpretation as incompetent and wrong - neither of which words can be associated with the work of the Holy Spirit.

Therefore, the source was elsewhere, and not the Holy Spirit.

What then of the multitude of tongue-speakings and 'interpretations'? How much reliance can be placed on what is said? Or is not-to-be-relied-upon the real intention? And if that is so, then what is the real purpose of all this tongue-speaking, interpretations, prophesying etc ?

“Don’t worry God, I’ll expose an error on Your behalf! And I’ll do it by being deceitful myself!” Surely you see the error in that. Unless of course you are of the persuasion that the end justifies the means.

You clearly have not much acquaintance with the actions of the prophets in the OT. You might like to have a look at Micaiah in " 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chr 18, as examples.

Jesus does the same. 'If I by Beelzebub cast out demons, then by whom do your children cast them out?' Did Jesus believe in Beelzebub? Of course not - He is merely using a debating technique to expose the error.

I’ll end with this (again speaking to a Believer). You name the Name of Christ. And to come close, if not cross the line of mocking those gathered in hopes of deepening their relationship with Christ (whether you agree or not) is hardly something worth repeating.

You may recall that I said that he left, not wishing to embarrass anybody. He was 'trying' the spirits, in order to 'discern' the truth of the matter. He found it out.

But here are you now, trying to support something that was very seriously wrong. Don't you think you are putting yourself in a very parlous position?

If there was serious error in that meeting, as there may well be in others, don't you think you ought to be speaking out against the practice, and doing some testing yourself to ascertain the truth?

You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free, as it has done for me.

You claim to speak truth (on dealings of the Spirit), yet it appears you see no error in HOW you do it, as long as you (attempt to) make your point.

See my remarks above re Micaiah and Jesus.

You dissect the Word of God to hold firm to your position, yet it appears you forget it is the God of the Word in Whom we are called to present ourselves. And that (especially so) to fellow Believers.

I am slightly distressed to hear you say this. A dissection occurs when something is dead - and the word of God is most certainly not that.

My practice is to study to show myself approved unto God. That means, paying extremely close and careful heed to what He has taken so much trouble to say and to preserve for me - at the cost of the lives of many faithful men and women -and for you too if you will but adopt the same attitude.

Do not allow yourself to take up any particular doctrine or doctrinal position until you have subjected it to severe and diligent open-minded scriptural scrutiny.

I mentioned in a previous post that Paul's words in 1 Cor 14.20 -22 show perfectly plainly that God's purpose in giving the gift of tongues was so that the disciples could witness to the Jews. Here's the passage again. Please give it some diligent heed and tell me what you think it means:

20 Brothers, be not children in understanding: however, in malice be you children, but in understanding be men.
21 ¶ In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak to this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, said the LORD.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Jesus said very much the same thing, and I commend His words to your careful attention. Again, you might like to let us all know what your conclusions are:

John 15: 26 ¶ But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:

[to whom?]

27 And you also shall bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.

[to whom?]

1 ¶ These things have I spoken to you, that you should not be offended.

[His own answer to the questions now appears:]

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yes, the time comes, that whoever kills you will think that he does God service.
3 And these things will they do to you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Who will put them out of 'the synagogues'? The Jews. And why? Because the disciples were testifying to them about Jesus. Just think of Paul as the arch-example.

Now some may say that I am being judgmental myself . HA! It is to a professed (astute?) Christian that I am addressing. One who is in a position to represent Christ with his knowledge. If one is to be received, then one must be receivable.

I am representing His truth to the very best of my ability, and I would say, with considerable gentleness. You will have observed from my posts that I am not abusive, derogatory or just plain nasty.

I obey Paul's injunction: in meekness opposing those that oppose themselves.

I am aware some moderators may conclude that this would be best suited in a PM. I beg to differ.

Considering the purpose of this post (and how it came about in the thread), I believe it is not only appropriate but in line with the topic as well.

OK. If you say so.