Have we gone too far with the judging?

[Aardverk]

I don't judge them I simply tell them what God has to say on the matter of sin, judgment, heaven and hell.

The problem is that you do not know what God has to say. All you know is what has been written in a variety of ancient texts collected together on the order of emperor Constantine. These texts are so confusing that they have been interpreted and misinterpreted hundreds of times to make them read what various men have wanted them to read. They are full of parables and allegory with evidence of thousands of copying errors and some significant factual errors yet there are still many people who seem to think that they can take them literally.

It's an act of love to do that.

I am sure your motives are good, it is simply your total (over) confidence which is unjustified. As Mark Twain said - It's not what you know that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

The last I heard Mahatma Gandhi rejected faith in Jesus Christ.

His main philosophy was ahimsa. He was heavily influenced by Jainism but he admired Jesus, especially his sermon on the mount. When asked about his religion he said "I am a Hindu, a Muslim and a Christian as well". A great man with attitudes and actions that Jesus would undoubtedly have admired.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

That seems just, reasonable and sensible allenwynne - just as Gandhi was. An attitude worthy of a 'Christian' instead of unjust mindless Bible thumping.

You evidently disagree with those who say that non-Christians are automatically excluded from Heaven. Can I take it also that you disagree with those who say that those who do not accept Jesus are evil sinners and damned to hell?

It doesn't make sense to me that someone would know the truth of Jesus and then reject it.
All that the Bible says about the Kingdom of God points directly to Jesus.

 

[P31Woman]

That seems just, reasonable and sensible allenwynne - just as Gandhi was. An attitude worthy of a 'Christian' instead of unjust mindless Bible thumping.

You evidently disagree with those who say that non-Christians are automatically excluded from Heaven. Can I take it also that you disagree with those who say that those who do not accept Jesus are evil sinners and damned to hell?

He said "self righteousness". Jesus spoke alot about those who were self righteous.


I am an evil sinner whose sin debt has been paid by the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross.

Christians won't face the judgement.

 

[P31Woman]

]

The problem is that you do not know what God has
to say. All you know is what has been written in a variety of ancient texts
collected together on the order of emperor Constantine. These texts are so
confusing that they have been interpreted and misinterpreted hundreds of times
to make them read what various men have wanted them to read. They are full of
parables and allegory with evidence of thousands of copying errors and some
significant factual errors yet there are still many people who seem to think
that they can take them literally.

Oh but I do. Not only do I have the inerrant Word of God but I have the Holy Spirit of God living within me.

I am sure your motives are good, it is simply your total (over)
confidence which is unjustified. As Mark Twain said - It's not what you know
that gets you into trouble, it's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

God has not given me a spirit<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> of fearfulness,<sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> but one of power,<sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup> love,<sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> and sound judgment.

His main philosophy was ahimsa. He was heavily influenced by Jainism
but he admired Jesus, especially his sermon on the mount. When asked about his
religion he said "I am a Hindu, a Muslim and a Christian as well". A great man
with attitudes and actions that Jesus would undoubtedly have admired.

The sermon on the mount is about not being good enough to meet God's righteous standards. How foolish of Ghandi rely on
"his own self righteousness" instead of the righteousness of the only truly rightousess One. He rejected Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior.

Here are Jesus closing instructions from the Sermon on the Mt.

<sup class="versenum">24 </sup>“Therefore,<sup class="crossreference" value='(Z)'></sup> everyone who hears these words<sup class="crossreference" value='(AA)'></sup> of Mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on the rock. <sup class="versenum">25 </sup>The rain fell, the rivers rose, and the winds blew and pounded that house. Yet it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on the rock. <sup class="versenum">26 </sup>But everyone who hears these words of Mine and doesn’t act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. <sup class="versenum">27 </sup>The rain fell, the rivers rose, the winds blew and pounded that house, and it collapsed. And its collapse was great!”

 

[P31Woman]

If this is a Christian forum, and people here all declare they are followers of Christ and part of the body, then you really have opened yourself up to be judged in your theories and doctrine and practices, and how these things stand up against the plainly written word of God..............If you don't want to be judged, then just say your an unbeliever, and the same word of God that demands your doctrines and practices be judged, is the same book that says not to judge you

Now I like you again! LOL

Jesus said, Anyone who believes in Him is not condemned, but anyone who does not believe is already condemned,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AD)'></sup> because he has not believed in the name<sup class="crossreference" value='(AE)'></sup> of the One and Only Son<sup class="crossreference" value='(AF)'></sup> of God.

That what you learn when we continue to 2 verses past John 3:16 If we keep reading we learn more FACTS


“This, then, is the judgment:

The light<sup class="crossreference" value='(AG)'></sup> has come into the world,<sup class="crossreference" value='(AH)'></sup> and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. <sup class="versenum"> </sup>For everyone who practices wicked things hates<sup class="crossreference" value='(AI)'></sup> the light and avoids it,<sup class="footnote" value='[k]'></sup> so that his deeds<sup class="crossreference" value='(AJ)'></sup> may not be exposed.

<sup class="versenum"> </sup>But anyone who lives by<sup class="footnote" value='[l]'></sup> the truth comes to the light, so that his works<sup class="crossreference" value='(AK)'></sup> may be shown to be accomplished by God.”

(HCSB)

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

When you judge, you are taking what you see/know and applying it to their ultimate destination. No one here can give ultimate life or death. No one.

NO one said we could, and no one is attempting to do so. I will say, as I said on another thread not long ago, also started by the OP of this one, that I liken it to being in a storm and knowing there is a bridge out on the road ahead. If I know the bridge is out, it is my moral responsibility to warn others, at least until the DOT shows up to close the road. If I don't warn them, I am at least morally responsible, if not criminally, for their fate. Then it becomes their responsibility to believe me as to whether the bridge is out or not. If they want to continue ahead at highway speed not believing the bridge is out, that's their business, but I've done as I know I should.

So why should anyone have the ability to question another persons destination? The truth is simple, we don't know the hearts of our fellow brothers and sisters.

By the same token, I don't know if the people I warn might want to turn off the road between where I am, and where the bridge is out. Do I try to guess which ones are so inclined, and which ones are not? No! Does that mean I don't stop each and every car and make sure they are aware the bridge is out? NO!

No one can tell me I am truly saved or condemned based off of what you see or hear. Only God can judge the heart, and trust me, he will. Leave it to our Lord to do that which is right! To condemn those who need condemnation, and save those who were gifted salvation through Christ.

Your right. But I can tell by what you say and how you act whether or not you are on the right path to know the security of Christ and have the assurance that you are going to heaven. If I believe you are not, it is at least my moral and spiritual responsibility to warn you that you may not have that security, based on what I've seen and heard. If you choose not to heed that warning, that's your business. But I've done my job.

Remember, those who you think are first here, will be last there. Those who you think are last here, will be first there. Can you call the order in which people will reside in heaven? Heck, as humans we are so naive. We argue over petty things like food and water, we can't even hope to conceive of true Judgement.

Actually, we can. Not to the extent that we know whether one is heaven- or hell-bound, true, but giving them the benefit of the doubt, we can still accurately guess at their heavenly reward. Those who claim Christ but do nothing to further His kingdom, do nothing to spread the gospel, do nothing to help the poor, the hungry, the sick and the prisoner -- and particularly those who claim to "know God" but reject virtually every way of knowing Him that is biblically based -- those are not likely "laying up treasures in heaven." And I think you might misunderstand something here. Heaven is not our focus. Our focus is to love the Lord and serve Him, and we give that service by serving others.

So let us confront our fellow brothers and sisters, and let us confront those whom we know are admitted unbelievers. Flag false prophets, false teachers, and false preachers. Don't get caught up in hypocrisy like the pharisee. Judging every move that Jesus made.

We certainly aren't judging Jesus, and we're not even judging people. We are judging actions. As Church Swindoll once said, we aren't judges, we're fruit inspectors. And we all know bad fruit when we see it.

 

[vocalyocal]

in response to p31 woman, I don't know why its not showing peoples post that I'm addressing


thats a good word!, personally I would rather take judgement here on earth, where I still have opportunity to change, rather than think I have all my ducks in a row and find out how far off I was and at what a great cost my error will have

My own focus is the reality of Jesus's own words to the seven churches, the reality that only a few from each church were found worthy to wear the white robe, those to me are not the greatest odds, especially if you go to a mega-church....lol

It appears that while salvation is a free gift, that there does appear to be criteria of how a person lives after knowing the truth

kinda like if somone told you a tornado is coming and you remained sitting on your front porch, could someone really contend that you believed the warning

many people say they believe in Jesus, yet they do nothing in their lives that would really take this farther than a mere thought, Oh sure they might drop a few bucks in a collection plate or give a box of food to a food drive, but the main portion of their life is lived for themselves

I preach this to myself, as I find my own life lacking

 

[vocalyocal]

NO one said we could, and no one is attempting to do so. I will say, as I said on another thread not long ago, also started by the OP of this one, that I liken it to being in a storm and knowing there is a bridge out on the road ahead. If I know the bridge is out, it is my moral responsibility to warn others, at least until the DOT shows up to close the road. If I don't warn them, I am at least morally responsible, if not criminally, for their fate. Then it becomes their responsibility to believe me as to whether the bridge is out or not. If they want to continue ahead at highway speed not believing the bridge is out, that's their business, but I've done as I know I should.

By the same token, I don't know if the people I warn might want to turn off the road between where I am, and where the bridge is out. Do I try to guess which ones are so inclined, and which ones are not? No! Does that mean I don't stop each and every car and make sure they are aware the bridge is out? NO!

Your right. But I can tell by what you say and how you act whether or not you are on the right path to know the security of Christ and have the assurance that you are going to heaven. If I believe you are not, it is at least my moral and spiritual responsibility to warn you that you may not have that security, based on what I've seen and heard. If you choose not to heed that warning, that's your business. But I've done my job.

Actually, we can. Not to the extent that we know whether one is heaven- or hell-bound, true, but giving them the benefit of the doubt, we can still accurately guess at their heavenly reward. Those who claim Christ but do nothing to further His kingdom, do nothing to spread the gospel, do nothing to help the poor, the hungry, the sick and the prisoner -- and particularly those who claim to "know God but reject virtually every way of knowing Him that is biblically based -- those are not likely "laying up treasures in heaven." And I think you might misunderstand something here. Heaven is not our focus. Our focus is to love the Lord and serve Him, and we give that service by serving others.

We certainly aren't judging Jesus, and we're not even judging people. We are judging actions. As Church Swindoll once said, we aren't judges, we're fruit inspectors. And we all know bad fruit when we see it.

I like that last quote.......fruit inspectors!...lol.....thats good!............and I see I was clicking the wrong response button

 

[Aardverk]

He said "self righteousness". Jesus spoke alot about those who were self righteous..........t.

I had spotted that but I really can't imagine allenwynne meant it in a derogatory manner. The rest of his post was spot-on so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and the credit his words deserved.

 

[Aardverk]

Oh but I do. Not only do I have the inerrant Word of God but I have the Holy Spirit of God living within me.

God has not given me a spirit<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> of fearfulness,<sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> but one of power,<sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup> love,<sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> and sound judgment.

The sermon on the mount is about not being good enough to meet God's righteous standards. How foolish of Ghandi rely on "his own self righteousness" instead of the righteousness of the only truly rightousess One. He rejected Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. [/COLOR]

[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ... I accept that you believe you are right but that is the word - 'believe'. None of us can 'know' to the extent that we can condemn others, we can only guess, assume and 'believe'. I accept that you 'believe' that 'God has given you sound judgment' BUT that really, really does not give you the right to judge others. That you should leave to God.

Gandhi was one of the most Christ-like people to have lived in my life-time yet you dismiss him... [Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject]. You implied earlier that you thought Gandhi was self-righteous yet... [Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject]. It really is difficult to understand your motives and certainly your logic. Where is your love for Gandhi displayed? [Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject]

[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ...As has been said earlier there are literally thousands of differing beliefs, just about Christianity, all based on careful study and all, in part, different from your beliefs. None of us actually KNOW which are right. [Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ... If all of those millions of good Christians believe something different from your beliefs, are they all wrong to your mind? ...[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject]

You seem, to me, to be entirely missing the point of the sermon on the mount. 'Love' was the message. Almost unique at that time in the history of religions. Severely corrupted since then by many religious leaders and forgotten by many individuals - but forgotten at our peril.

love Aardverk ;)

 

[P31Woman]

I had spotted that but I really can't imagine allenwynne meant it in a derogatory manner. The rest of his post was spot-on so I gave him the benefit of the doubt and the credit his words deserved.

Of course he was not being derogatory. He was simply telling the truth.

 

[P31Woman]

[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ... I accept that you believe you are right but that is the word - 'believe'. None of us can 'know' to the extent that we can condemn others, we can only guess, assume and 'believe'. I accept that you 'believe' that 'God has given you sound judgment' BUT that really, really does not give you the right to judge others. That you should leave to God.

Gandhi was one of the most Christ-like people to have lived in my life-time yet you dismiss him with the assumption that you are better than him because you that you know something he didn't. You implied earlier that you thought Gandhi was self-righteous yet here you are displaying self righteousness. It really is difficult to understand your motives and certainly your logic. Where is your love for Gandhi displayed? You display only contempt. Why is that?

[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ...As has been said earlier there are literally thousands of differing beliefs, just about Christianity, all based on careful study and all, in part, different from your beliefs. None of us actually KNOW which are right. [Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject] ... If all of those millions of good Christians believe something different from your beliefs, are they all wrong to your mind? ...[Edited by Sparrowhawke to remove comments directed "at the person" and not the subject]

You seem, to me, to be entirely missing the point of the sermon on the mount. 'Love' was the message. Almost unique at that time in the history of religions. Severely corrupted since then by many religious leaders and forgotten by many individuals - but forgotten at our peril.

love Aardverk ;)

Your post is a mess. Can you fit it?

BTW, This comment I made, "God has not given me a spirit<sup class="footnote" value='[a]'></sup> of fearfulness,<sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup> but one of power,<sup class="crossreference" value='(B)'></sup> love,<sup class="crossreference" value='(C)'></sup> and sound judgment." This came from scripture. It's deals with the Holy Spirit and what God's children are given.

EDIT ADDED:

OK I see you cannot correct that post.

 

[duari91]

NO one said we could, and no one is attempting to do so. I will say, as I said on another thread not long ago, also started by the OP of this one, that I liken it to being in a storm and knowing there is a bridge out on the road ahead. If I know the bridge is out, it is my moral responsibility to warn others, at least until the DOT shows up to close the road. If I don't warn them, I am at least morally responsible, if not criminally, for their fate. Then it becomes their responsibility to believe me as to whether the bridge is out or not. If they want to continue ahead at highway speed not believing the bridge is out, that's their business, but I've done as I know I should.

By the same token, I don't know if the people I warn might want to turn off the road between where I am, and where the bridge is out. Do I try to guess which ones are so inclined, and which ones are not? No! Does that mean I don't stop each and every car and make sure they are aware the bridge is out? NO!

Your right. But I can tell by what you say and how you act whether or not you are on the right path to know the security of Christ and have the assurance that you are going to heaven. If I believe you are not, it is at least my moral and spiritual responsibility to warn you that you may not have that security, based on what I've seen and heard. If you choose not to heed that warning, that's your business. But I've done my job.

Actually, we can. Not to the extent that we know whether one is heaven- or hell-bound, true, but giving them the benefit of the doubt, we can still accurately guess at their heavenly reward. Those who claim Christ but do nothing to further His kingdom, do nothing to spread the gospel, do nothing to help the poor, the hungry, the sick and the prisoner -- and particularly those who claim to "know God" but reject virtually every way of knowing Him that is biblically based -- those are not likely "laying up treasures in heaven." And I think you might misunderstand something here. Heaven is not our focus. Our focus is to love the Lord and serve Him, and we give that service by serving others.

We certainly aren't judging Jesus, and we're not even judging people. We are judging actions. As Church Swindoll once said, we aren't judges, we're fruit inspectors. And we all know bad fruit when we see it.

According to the pharisee, Jesus didn't have very good fruit either. Your point is understood, but logically fails to account for the judgement of others. Keep in mind that God sees all of us as Thieves, Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers at heart. That's only four of the ten commandments. It's not very humbling to point out and Judge the flaws of our fellow brothers and sisters, when we ourselves have equally fallen short of his glory. Like I said, the pharisee did this to Jesus. Jesus responded by calling them sinning hypocrites, that's because it doesn't matter how much they followed the law. Their hearts were wicked, and only Jesus could Judge and see what was in their hearts. We can not see what is in the hearts of our brothers and sisters. You could put yourself in the realm of false judgement, which in my opinion is a serious offense. You could call someone righteous based on their actions (like the pharisee), but be completely wrong on the heart level.

Leave the judging to our Lord in heaven, and confront those who need confronting.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that note.

 

[P31Woman]

According to the pharisee, Jesus didn't have very good fruit either. Your point is understood, but logically fails to account for the judgement of others. Keep in mind that God sees all of us as Thieves, Liars, Adulterers, and Murderers at heart. That's only four of the ten commandments. It's not very humbling to point out and Judge the flaws of our fellow brothers and sisters, when we ourselves have equally fallen short of his glory. Like I said, the pharisee did this to Jesus. Jesus responded by calling them sinning hypocrites, that's because it doesn't matter how much they followed the law. Their hearts were wicked, and only Jesus could Judge and see what was in their hearts. We can not see what is in the hearts of our brothers and sisters. You could put yourself in the realm of false judgement, which in my opinion is a serious offense. You could call someone righteous based on their actions (like the pharisee), but be completely wrong on the heart level.

Leave the judging to our Lord in heaven, and confront those who need confronting.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that note.

Remember Chrisitan have the Holy Spirit living within us. We are called to inspect the works, teachings and lives of others who claim to be part of the family.

You said confront those who need confronting. How do you define that? Christian living in sin, Christian listening to false teachers, someone teaching false doctrine, judging disputes, people claiming to be believers yet denying the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Leave the judging to our Lord in heaven, and confront those who need confronting.

That would violate Jesus' own directive to call our fellow believers into account. He would not have put Matthew 18:15-17 in the Bible if He didn't intend for us to use it.

Matthew 18 NASB
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector."
​

Paul's warnings in Romans 14 are not in regard to sin or false doctrine. They are in regard only to the level of faith and conviction each believer has, and asking that others allow them room to grow. In fact, he adds to the view that Christ expressed above, in his first letter to the Corinth church.

1 Corinthians 5
9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler -- not even to eat with such a one.
12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
​

So it would seem that while you want to agree to disagree, you have chosen the wrong side of the discussion.

 

[P31Woman]

<sup class="versenum">John 7:24 Jesus said, " </sup>Stop judging by mere appearances, but instead judge correctly.” NIV

Would Jesus give us this command and then withhold from us the ability to know "how" to judge correctly?

 

[Sparkey]

I've not read the whole thread, but have we addressed 1Cor 6 yet? Especially 1Cor 6:3 and thereabouts. Paul was addressing the habit of going before unbelievers in courts and not rather submitting to the judgment of the saints. He said that it is to be preferred to "set them to judge, who are least esteemed in the church," in 1Cor 6:4. The discussion is known to some as the "Know ye not...?" question, and may be summarized by saying that Christians are to use their sound judgments. Although Paul does not directly say this, it is my thought that Christians would do well to hone their skills, knowing that they will judge angels. Hence the question(s) raised by the Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul.

 

[duari91]

On the contrary, nearly everyone here still doesn't know what it is to judge. Look at my first post in regards to this.

Again, i'll put it into context. Do you know what is in my heart? Can you give people ultimate life and death? If no, then you cannot judge. When you confront someone about sin, then it is just that, confrontation. However; if you say you can judge, then you claim the power of God. If you say you judge, what case are you judging exactly? The case of ultimate human destination? Do you think you will be the judge when it is all said and done?

@PS1Woman...How else can a human judge other than appearance? Can you look into my heart, and tell me I am of the wicked, or of the saved? No? End of story then. Jesus was clearly making a point, which he also said..."Don't judge lest you be judged."

If you are all going to argue judgement, then at least get the meaning right. Don't be ignorant, and tell me that its okay to judge one's ultimate destination, because thats what judging is. Especially in a biblical sense. It is okay to confront, which I believe some of you are confusing with judging.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

On the contrary, nearly everyone here still doesn't know what it is to judge. Look at my first post in regards to this.

No offense intended, but we've tried to guide you on track here, and you haven't caught the drift. Your first post is as off the mark as your others have been. Your next words are the perfect example

Again, i'll put it into context. Do you know what is in my heart? Can you give people ultimate life and death?

That is not what judging fellow believers is about, and no one has said anything of the sort. That is your misconception of what we are talking about. If you can't understand that, you shouldn't be in the discussion.

 

[P31Woman]

@PS1Woman...How else can a human judge other than appearance? Can you look into my heart, and tell me I am of the wicked, or of the saved? No? End of story then. Jesus was clearly making a point, which he also said..."Don't judge lest you be judged."
.

How? Biblical standards.

If you go read the actual passage you gave a "part sentence" quote of you will see we are to use the same standard that is to be used against us. That standard is scripture. First we examine our own heart and life and remove any sin we may have. Then we are are to also bath ourselves in prayer. (knock, ask, seek, ..........and it will be given unto you) That passage you quoted is a GREAT if you read the entire passage and pluck a few words out of context.

You do understand God is on our side and wants us to be judged and judge one another properly.


If you don't know where your quote came from it's Matthew 7